Do Stainless Steel Brake Lines Actually Help?

Don't quit your day job. :D There's a hell of a lot more difference in pads than just "courseness", and true performance pads make a HUGE difference in a true performance situation, where lots of heat is involved. Like the difference between sailing through the gravel trap at 90 mph or making the turn safely instead. So there are big differences in fade resistance and rotor-friendliness, and beyond that, they have different coefficients of friction, and even different levels of initial bite and release that can be used as a tuning aid.

That said, the thread is about braided stainless lines, and the best thing about them is abrasion resistance, for when they rub against tires or wheels. Any change in brake pedal firmness is practically a placebo effect, and there is absolutely zero stopping distance gain to be had from them.
I hear ya on the better performance brakes when taking corners at 90, but guys racing around the track and braking at 90 have a whole lot more going on than say a set of hawk hps or ceramic. I was just making the point that NO stainless brakes will not help you stop better and while you're at it save your money and get replacement pads. I'm speaking to the entry level "I wanna build a sports car and I've already added a cold air intake. How much horsepower did that get me? I'm in need of a brake job and I'm thinking about upgrading to hawk, Stoptech's, etc, etc, which is best? Oh and I have a $2k budget for the entire car build and I could use a paint job" crowd. To them I say get a set of replacement pads. The extra money spent won't be felt on the street enough to justify them.
 
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I hear ya on the better performance brakes when taking corners at 90, but guys racing around the track and braking at 90 have a whole lot more going on than say a set of hawk hps or ceramic. I was just making the point that NO stainless brakes will not help you stop better and while you're at it save your money and get replacement pads. I'm speaking to the entry level "I wanna build a sports car and I've already added a cold air intake. How much horsepower did that get me? I'm in need of a brake job and I'm thinking about upgrading to hawk, Stoptech's, etc, etc, which is best? Oh and I have a $2k budget for the entire car build and I could use a paint job" crowd. To them I say get a set of replacement pads. The extra money spent won't be felt on the street enough to justify them.


I'm not sure I take that same tact... Despite all the public outcry about the crappy 4 cylinder brakes on the 86, it is still 4-lug (when not in a hurry, it can take time to amass all the swap pieces). Anyway.... There is a significant difference between an OEM set of rotors and pads on a healthy brake system versus something like a set of Powerstop rotors and premium pads. Back then, I bought into all the hype and even bought slotted and drilled (honestly, I just thought they looked cool). With or without slots and holes, they are just a thicker, heavier, better quality built rotor. Pads need to fit their application and there's definitely a difference.

Put another way... I can make the brakes on an 86 as good as or better than what a lot of guys ride on in their 95s when all their brake parts are from The Zone.

I got asked numerous times by other Mustang folk what I'd done for my upgrade. Many believed that I'd swapped it all over to SVO until I showed them.


Edit: After thinking about it some, I'm sure that at least some of the contribution while all of this was going on was from people getting between 10 and 15 hg vac all over the same brake system. A lot of shade tree mechanics ran (and still run) cams that aren't so street friendly to the tiny booster.
 
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BTW

Back when i had my 2003 GT, i swapped my brake lines to SS. All 4 locations. I also bled my brakes at the same time due to obvious reasons.

Results were better pedal feel, instant response and modulation and a little less sponginess.


HOWEVER, i just bled the brakes on my daily driver this weekend and noticed the same result. So who knows.


On my Fox Mustang, i have SS lines at all 5 locations.
 
Don't quit your day job. :D There's a hell of a lot more difference in pads than just "courseness", and true performance pads make a HUGE difference in a true performance situation, where lots of heat is involved. Like the difference between sailing through the gravel trap at 90 mph or making the turn safely instead. So there are big differences in fade resistance and rotor-friendliness, and beyond that, they have different coefficients of friction, and even different levels of initial bite and release that can be used as a tuning aid.

That said, the thread is about braided stainless lines, and the best thing about them is abrasion resistance, for when they rub against tires or wheels. Any change in brake pedal firmness is practically a placebo effect, and there is absolutely zero stopping distance gain to be had from them.


LOL @ placebo effect...
 
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Don't quit your day job. :D There's a hell of a lot more difference in pads than just "courseness", and true performance pads make a HUGE difference in a true performance situation, where lots of heat is involved. Like the difference between sailing through the gravel trap at 90 mph or making the turn safely instead. So there are big differences in fade resistance and rotor-friendliness, and beyond that, they have different coefficients of friction, and even different levels of initial bite and release that can be used as a tuning aid.

That said, the thread is about braided stainless lines, and the best thing about them is abrasion resistance, for when they rub against tires or wheels. Any change in brake pedal firmness is practically a placebo effect, and there is absolutely zero stopping distance gain to be had from them.


This got me thinking a little so bare with me:

I have a 2001 Suburban that I pull a 33 foot camper with. This camper BARELY falls into gross towing weight of the Suburban when it's loaded with the items necessary for a weekend away. There are a couple of things that I had to do to the Suburban to make the entire affair a one-hand on the wheel affair when connected to the camper.

1. Replace OEM hitch with Reese hitch rated for more than the truck is.
2. Air bags in the rear-end coil springs (tongue weight on this camper is more than previous 31' camper but overall weight is roughly the same).
3. Install stainless steel brake lines because over-time after a good brake workout, I could get the brake pedal near or to the floor while braking going down hill.

Now I searched the interwebz for a bit of time about increasing braking power over stock. After all, the Suburban is just a half ton truck.

The hitch was peace of mind because I don't trust the OEM to be strong enough. There were reports of the OEM hitch breaking off between the hitch frame and the receiver. Versus taking chances, I spent the $180 ish dollars for a hitch that will never be THE issue.

The airbags made a night and day difference when cruising down the road. No more hitting the bump stops, no more rear end sway, no more nail-biting lane changes. Just a nice easy cruise and an overall well mannered rig.

My brakes and rotors are not that old and the process of going larger was more involved than swapping rotors, pads, and calipers. I'd seen a few folks talk about SS lines and stock brakes and most raved about the difference. I can tell ya.... It made a significant difference when putting the woes on that camper. The pedal now stopped way above the floor and the feedback was a lot more precise. What's more is that now I could lock up the brakes and the best that I can tell, it locks them up at the same pedal height each and every time.

This MUST translate into some similar effect when riding and braking the car very hard.

As a final precaution on this upgrade, I flushed out all of the old brake fluid and replaced with new. I had visions in my head of the brake fluid boiling due to water content and hard braking.

My test bed for the brakes was a very steep, winding road coming from Petit Jean State Park in Arkansas. I nearly chit myself while coming down that hill the time that the trailer brakes were maladjusted. The truck didn't have the braking power to bring the camper to a stop on that hill by itself. I ended up using the hand brake switch on the controller to bring everything back into line. The after effect on the same hill is that it is still a chore to slow everything down. The difference is that it does slow everything down and I can get the rig to come to a complete stop going down hill without trailer brakes.


I think there's more to it than just a placebo effect. Though we're talking about a huge difference in weight, I can't imagine that expanding brake lines on even a 3200 lb car means nothing at all especially when that braking system is tasked.
 
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Don't quit your day job. :D There's a hell of a lot more difference in pads than just "courseness", and true performance pads make a HUGE difference in a true performance situation, where lots of heat is involved. Like the difference between sailing through the gravel trap at 90 mph or making the turn safely instead. So there are big differences in fade resistance and rotor-friendliness, and beyond that, they have different coefficients of friction, and even different levels of initial bite and release that can be used as a tuning aid.

That said, the thread is about braided stainless lines, and the best thing about them is abrasion resistance, for when they rub against tires or wheels. Any change in brake pedal firmness is practically a placebo effect, and there is absolutely zero stopping distance gain to be had from them.
I hear ya on the better performance brakes when taking corners at 90, but guys racing around the track and braking at 90 have a whole lot more going on than say a set of hawk hps or ceramic. I was just making the point that NO stainless brakes will not help you stop better and while you're at it save your money and get replacement pads. I'm speaking to the entry level "I wanna build a sports car and I've already added a cold air intake. How much horsepower did that get me? I'm in need of a brake job and I'm thinking about upgrading to hawk, Stoptech's, etc, etc, which is best? Oh and I have a $2k budget for the entire car build and I could use a paint job" crowd. To them I say get a set of replacement pads. The extra money spent won't be felt on the street enough to justify them.
This got me thinking a little so bare with me:

I have a 2001 Suburban that I pull a 33 foot camper with. This camper BARELY falls into gross towing weight of the Suburban when it's loaded with the items necessary for a weekend away. There are a couple of things that I had to do to the Suburban to make the entire affair a one-hand on the wheel affair when connected to the camper.

1. Replace OEM hitch with Reese hitch rated for more than the truck is.
2. Air bags in the rear-end coil springs (tongue weight on this camper is more than previous 31' camper but overall weight is roughly the same).
3. Install stainless steel brake lines because over-time after a good brake workout, I could get the brake pedal near or to the floor while braking going down hill.

Now I searched the interwebz for a bit of time about increasing braking power over stock. After all, the Suburban is just a half ton truck.

The hitch was peace of mind because I don't trust the OEM to be strong enough. There were reports of the OEM hitch breaking off between the hitch frame and the receiver. Versus taking chances, I spent the $180 ish dollars for a hitch that will never be THE issue.

The airbags made a night and day difference when cruising down the road. No more hitting the bump stops, no more rear end sway, no more nail-biting lane changes. Just a nice easy cruise and an overall well mannered rig.

My brakes and rotors are not that old and the process of going larger was more involved than swapping rotors, pads, and calipers. I'd seen a few folks talk about SS lines and stock brakes and most raved about the difference. I can tell ya.... It made a significant difference when putting the woes on that camper. The pedal now stopped way above the floor and the feedback was a lot more precise. What's more is that now I could lock up the brakes and the best that I can tell, it locks them up at the same pedal height each and every time.

This MUST translate into some similar effect when riding and braking the car very hard.

As a final precaution on this upgrade, I flushed out all of the old brake fluid and replaced with new. I had visions in my head of the brake fluid boiling due to water content and hard braking.

My test bed for the brakes was a very steep, winding road coming from Petit Jean State Park in Arkansas. I nearly chit myself while coming down that hill the time that the trailer brakes were maladjusted. The truck didn't have the braking power to bring the camper to a stop on that hill by itself. I ended up using the hand brake switch on the controller to bring everything back into line. The after effect on the same hill is that it is still a chore to slow everything down. The difference is that it does slow everything down and I can get the rig to come to a complete stop going down hill without trailer brakes.


I think there's more to it than just a placebo effect. Though we're talking about a huge difference in weight, I can't imagine that expanding brake lines on even a 3200 lb car means nothing at all especially when that braking system is tasked.
Yeah but I'm willing to wager my paycheck that those raving about the difference between stainless lines replaced old worn out stock lines. Have you ever read a review about a guy who replaced his brand new '15 vehicle w stainless lines and said wow what a difference? I've read a review that was something like, "I flushed and added new fluid and bled the brakes and added stainless lines, wow what a difference!" No kidding huh, you just had a brake job and it stops better than before......?
 
HOWEVER, i just bled the brakes on my daily driver this weekend and noticed the same result.

Bingo! You just hit on why people feel like stainless lines make for stiffer pedals. They bled the brakes in the process.

Now let's bring some tech.

First, just for a frame of reference, pad material itself can compress between 2% and 5% of its thickness depending on how hot it is. If you have 0.25 inches of pad, compressing 5% under load, that's .0125 inches of compression at the pad. Translated through the pedal at the SN95's 3.5:1 pedal ratio means pad compression alone can easily be worth 0.044 inches of pedal travel. 44 thousandths of movement is hardly perceptible in the human realm, but it's there.

Now, a while back, VintageVenom on the Corral was kind enough to contact some brake line manufacturers, get some info from them, and do some calculations, which check out with anyone who cares to duplicate them. tldr version: The difference in pedal travel of .014 inch between stock rubber lines and braided stainless lines, at the highest panic-stop pressures. That's 14 thousandths, which is less than a third of what's there just due to pad deflection alone, and there's not a human on this planet that can correlate such a minute difference as improved pedal feel. Placebo effect, confirmation bias, call it what you will, but the braided stainless lines are hardly contributing anything to brake feel all by themselves.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/9748994-post12.html
 
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Those who say it doesn't make a difference are seriously mistaken. They do work. I just did a ss line upgrade on a motorcycle. Went from whole hand slow stops with NEW fluid to two finger indos. Same with my everyday 07 Camry v6. Went from mushy pedal even with NEW fluid to firm quick braking. They work... Do your research
 
Yeah but I'm willing to wager my paycheck that those raving about the difference between stainless lines replaced old worn out stock lines. Have you ever read a review about a guy who replaced his brand new '15 vehicle w stainless lines and said wow what a difference? I've read a review that was something like, "I flushed and added new fluid and bled the brakes and added stainless lines, wow what a difference!" No kidding huh, you just had a brake job and it stops better than before......?


The actual difference felt, I think would depend on a lot of things and not just brake lines so definitely get the point you're trying to make.

Them: I just installed this new set of spark plugs and HOLY CHIT what a difference!!!!!1111one

Parts actually installed: Blower, injectors, tune, exhaust, and oh yeah.... One set of spark plugs. lol


On a smaller lighter scale, I would imagine that the differences before and after, also scale. For instance.... I do not recognize a significant change from my vehicle brakes now versus before when just driving down the road, unleaded, in normal traffic. I'd say that they feel pretty much like they did before in that circumstance.

I surely did notice the difference when I stood on the brakes while fully loaded and going down hill though.

The more you abuse them, the more I think you will see a difference.
 
I have to say though that a lot of this should also depend on the weakest link in the system too.

If you have larger brake pistons, more brake surface, and less pressure then the brake lines themselves will be less significant and aren't going to balloon as much.
 
Those who say it doesn't make a difference are seriously mistaken. They do work. I just did a ss line upgrade on a motorcycle. Went from whole hand slow stops with NEW fluid to two finger indos. Same with my everyday 07 Camry v6. Went from mushy pedal even with NEW fluid to firm quick braking. They work... Do your research

You're right, none of us have done any research at all LOL.
 
Bingo! You just hit on why people feel like stainless lines make for stiffer pedals. They bled the brakes in the process.

Now let's bring some tech.

First, just for a frame of reference, pad material itself can compress between 2% and 5% of its thickness depending on how hot it is. If you have 0.25 inches of pad, compressing 5% under load, that's .0125 inches of compression at the pad. Translated through the pedal at the SN95's 3.5:1 pedal ratio means pad compression alone can easily be worth 0.044 inches of pedal travel. 44 thousandths of movement is hardly perceptible in the human realm, but it's there.

Now, a while back, VintageVenom on the Corral was kind enough to contact some brake line manufacturers, get some info from them, and do some calculations, which check out with anyone who cares to duplicate them. tldr version: The difference in pedal travel of .014 inch between stock rubber lines and braided stainless lines, at the highest panic-stop pressures. That's 14 thousandths, which is less than a third of what's there just due to pad deflection alone, and there's not a human on this planet that can correlate such a minute difference as improved pedal feel. Placebo effect, confirmation bias, call it what you will, but the braided stainless lines are hardly contributing anything to brake feel all by themselves.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/9748994-post12.html
Thanks. Well written, easy to understand.
 
Brakes then tended to be undersized, which is no good for repeated stops, and it wasn't until mid-60's LeMans racing that major manufacturers figured out the benefit of semi-metallic brake pads. But the single biggest difference in one-stop stopping distance between then and now? The tires.
 
Don't quit your day job. :D There's a hell of a lot more difference in pads than just "courseness", and true performance pads make a HUGE difference in a true performance situation, where lots of heat is involved. Like the difference between sailing through the gravel trap at 90 mph or making the turn safely instead. So there are big differences in fade resistance and rotor-friendliness, and beyond that, they have different coefficients of friction, and even different levels of initial bite and release that can be used as a tuning aid.

That said, the thread is about braided stainless lines, and the best thing about them is abrasion resistance, for when they rub against tires or wheels. Any change in brake pedal firmness is practically a placebo effect, and there is absolutely zero stopping distance gain to be had from them.


I was waiting for you to chime in.... well said
 
Personal experience to toss into the mix:

2012 - the previous owner of my 90GT vert had the pads and shoes replaced and system bled, car had 90k miles on it.

2014 - i bought the car and the brakes were very weak, short yellow lights ended me up half way into the cross walk. 98k miles on it.

I just put SS lines, caliper sleeves, and hawk pads on the fronts, bled all four wheels. Much easier to stop before the line and don't have to stand on the pedal. Haven't even put the SS lines and better shoes on the drums yet, but hope it'll be even better once i do the rears.