94 Z28 Vs 93 Notch

If the GT40 car weighs 3000 pounds or less, sure it will. I specified it needed to be lighter than stock. :)
That one serious loophole you left yourself to back misinformation.
You could use that excuse pretty much during any debate.
BTW, if you figure in that you lose 50lbs with aluminum heads and each 100lbs is worth a .1 (so is each 10hp added), the extra 40hp you get from the twisted wedges still outruns your 3000lb car with iron heads and that guy didn't have to turn his car into a stripped down POS to do it.

And in the future to be fair, IMO when comparing the performance of certain parts, it should always be under the same conditions.

The gt40 iron setup is the worst bang for your buck mod. You know why? Because you spend money and you still lose to basic modern muscle cars. You could spend zero and get the same result, a loss...
There is always a faster car, but if you can't even compete with basic showroom sports cars, I don't even see why bothering doing it at.
 
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That one serious loophole you left yourself to back misinformation.
You could use that excuse pretty much during any debate.
BTW, if you figure in that you lose 50lbs with aluminum heads and each 100lbs is worth a .1 (so is each 10hp added), the extra 40hp you get from the twisted wedges still outruns your 3000lb car with iron heads and that guy didn't have to turn his car into a stripped down POS to do it.

The gt40 iron setup is the worst bang for your buck mod. You know why? Because you spend money and you still lose to basic modern muscle cars. You could spend zero and get the same result, a loss...
There is always a faster car, but if you can't even compete with basic showroom sports cars, I don't even see why bothering doing it at.

Uhhhh... "Bash it all you will, but it works. A lighter GT40 car that's been well tuned will be a match for the TFS top end cars at the strip, and cost less."

Right there. Between the word "A" and the term "GT40" is the mythical word you didn't seem to see before you got your little angry boner.

I don't care about stripping my Mustang. I'm doing it nicely. I'm going for a factory stripped out look, not the rice method. But then again, I have 3 other cars to drive so I do understand your hesitation to joining the awesome club.
 
The 93' Cobra engine (GT40) responded quite well to mods. A little cylinder head work, a little intake manifold work, the right cam and some exhaust and they would put down nearly 300HP to the tires and still look stock, except for the shorty headers. And the cam lope kinda gave it away as well.
 
Uhhhh... "Bash it all you will, but it works. A lighter GT40 car that's been well tuned will be a match for the TFS top end cars at the strip, and cost less."

Right there. Between the word "A" and the term "GT40" is the mythical word you didn't seem to see before you got your little angry boner.

I don't care about stripping my Mustang. I'm doing it nicely. I'm going for a factory stripped out look, not the rice method. But then again, I have 3 other cars to drive so I do understand your hesitation to joining the awesome club.

So by lighter you mean a stripped down POS, no thanks I'll stay full weight and lose a couple tenths.

Reworking a set of gt-40 heads and getting a quality port job isn't really as BUDGET oriented as you might preach. I actually purchased a 3 bar set of GT-40 heads and then started looking around at how much it would cost to put in new and bigger valves, machine the heads to accept dual springs, 3 angle valve job, and port them (no flow bench in my neck of the woods) etc etc and I would've been into them for nearly $850-900. Where's the real savings over aluminum that are lighter and put out more power for not much more money new?

There's just no way for somebody who works to hang out at a junk yard and beat the vultures to these vehicles. Where I live the price at the local pull n' save is abotu $28 each head. But there are guys who literally make a living of hanging out at these places and pull these parts before the front desk person even knows it's available. Then these people sell them for a steep profit on CL or Ebay.
 
So by lighter you mean a stripped down POS, no thanks I'll stay full weight and lose a couple tenths.

Reworking a set of gt-40 heads and getting a quality port job isn't really as BUDGET oriented as you might preach. I actually purchased a 3 bar set of GT-40 heads and then started looking around at how much it would cost to put in new and bigger valves, machine the heads to accept dual springs, 3 angle valve job, and port them (no flow bench in my neck of the woods) etc etc and I would've been into them for nearly $850-900. Where's the real savings over aluminum that are lighter and put out more power for not much more money new?

There's just no way for somebody who works to hang out at a junk yard and beat the vultures to these vehicles. Where I live the price at the local pull n' save is abotu $28 each head. But there are guys who literally make a living of hanging out at these places and pull these parts before the front desk person even knows it's available. Then these people sell them for a steep profit on CL or Ebay.
The GT40 heads don't need bigger valves to make good power, so don't waste your money on valves. Also don't need dual springs, a hyd roller is pretty much done at 6,200 anyway. Build it for power from 1,500rpm to 6,000rpm and a lot of that big valve high rpm stuff is not necessary and just cost $ that can go to parts that actually make usable power.
 
That one serious loophole you left yourself to back misinformation.
You could use that excuse pretty much during any debate.
BTW, if you figure in that you lose 50lbs with aluminum heads and each 100lbs is worth a .1 (so is each 10hp added), the extra 40hp you get from the twisted wedges still outruns your 3000lb car with iron heads and that guy didn't have to turn his car into a stripped down POS to do it.

And in the future to be fair, IMO when comparing the performance of certain parts, it should always be under the same conditions.

The gt40 iron setup is the worst bang for your buck mod. You know why? Because you spend money and you still lose to basic modern muscle cars. You could spend zero and get the same result, a loss...
There is always a faster car, but if you can't even compete with basic showroom sports cars, I don't even see why bothering doing it at.
Yes gt40 stuff will get you more power but I think the arguement this guy and I am making is that there is too much ground to cover between the pushrod 302 and modern horsepower numbers. One must spend more $ than a gt40 setup to stay competitive. The op's gt40 headed mustang tied a stock 20 year old z28 for Pete's sake.
 
^^I can agree with your post a lot. Even with going that way it still doesn't create enough of a cost gap between worked over gt-40's and aluminum to justify bragging about having a few extra dollars in your pocket while having a few less HP under the hood.

The person I sold my non restored GT-40 heads to for $200 was buying them because the guy porting his GT-40's hit the water jacket. Oops.
 
Yes gt40 stuff will get you more power but I think the arguement this guy and I am making is that there is too much ground to cover between the pushrod 302 and modern horsepower numbers. One must spend more $ than a gt40 setup to stay competitive. The op's gt40 headed mustang tied a stock 20 year old z28 for Pete's sake.
Umm, the op ran mid 13's on street tires. How fast do you think these new cars are running? I would say he's competitive right now. I've seen plenty of the coyote stangs,LS camaro/firebirds,hemi mopars etc at the track. Very very few are running under 13.0's on street tires. Sure a lot of them will win but by only a few tenths. All these new cars are far superior rides over our 20+ year old technology. Apples to oranges but I prefer the "old" crap.
 
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The new hellcat challenger, making over 700 hp ran an 11.2 on street tires........ 10.8 on street drag radials...... cost is $60K

The 2015 Mustang GT runs in at 12.8. 12.8 with a price tag of close to $40K.
The 2014 Camaro ZL1 runs in at 12.2, and its got a S/C on it. That will run you somewhere near $50K

Put a 20% of that cost into your fox and you can make a damn 11 sec street able ride.
 
The new hellcat challenger, making over 700 hp ran an 11.2 on street tires........ 10.8 on street drag radials...... cost is $60K

The 2015 Mustang GT runs in at 12.8. 12.8 with a price tag of close to $40K.
The 2014 Camaro ZL1 runs in at 12.2, and its got a S/C on it. That will run you somewhere near $50K

Put a 20% of that cost into your fox and you can make a damn 11 sec street able ride.
Agreed. I actually know someone who bought a ZL1. It was actually close to 60k. Very cool car(except I hate a lot of design issues with camaros) that thing flat pins you in the corners. Also all those examples are high end examples of our "new" musclecars. Don't see many at the track personally. I did see a Nissan GTR rip a low 11 with his wife/girlfriend in the passenger seat. Then they were asked to leave lol
 
Umm, the op ran mid 13's on street tires. How fast do you think these new cars are running? I would say he's competitive right now. I've seen plenty of the coyote stangs,LS camaro/firebirds,hemi mopars etc at the track. Very very few are running under 13.0's on street tires. Sure a lot of them will win but by only a few tenths. All these new cars are far superior rides over our 20+ year old technology. Apples to oranges but I prefer the "old" crap.
Fair enough and I'm in to the old crap too, I guess mainly because I grew up with it and now that I'm grown I can't afford and it'd be a hard sale to the wife for a $40k Mustang at this juncture in my life. The simple point I was trying to make is the older mustangs need a big chunk of change to run w stock cars of today and it was the same when they were new- '95 mustang gt 215 hp, they have us starting behind the 8 ball.
The new hellcat challenger, making over 700 hp ran an 11.2 on street tires........ 10.8 on street drag radials...... cost is $60K

The 2015 Mustang GT runs in at 12.8. 12.8 with a price tag of close to $40K.
The 2014 Camaro ZL1 runs in at 12.2, and its got a S/C on it. That will run you somewhere near $50K

Put a 20% of that cost into your fox and you can make a damn 11 sec street able ride.
It takes some deep pockets to have the disposable income to make an 11 second fox that you can drive cross country. Folks are making payments on their $60 cars. It'd take one helluva credit card to make payments on a fox like you're talking about.
Don't see many at the track personally. I did see a Nissan GTR rip a low 11 with his wife/girlfriend in the passenger seat. Then they were asked to leave lol
The reason for not seeing too many new muscle cars at the track probably goes back to the making payments thing. They can't risk blowing it up, they probably have to drive it to work on Monday.
 
So by lighter you mean a stripped down POS, no thanks I'll stay full weight and lose a couple tenths.

Reworking a set of gt-40 heads and getting a quality port job isn't really as BUDGET oriented as you might preach. I actually purchased a 3 bar set of GT-40 heads and then started looking around at how much it would cost to put in new and bigger valves, machine the heads to accept dual springs, 3 angle valve job, and port them (no flow bench in my neck of the woods) etc etc and I would've been into them for nearly $850-900. Where's the real savings over aluminum that are lighter and put out more power for not much more money new?

There's just no way for somebody who works to hang out at a junk yard and beat the vultures to these vehicles. Where I live the price at the local pull n' save is abotu $28 each head. But there are guys who literally make a living of hanging out at these places and pull these parts before the front desk person even knows it's available. Then these people sell them for a steep profit on CL or Ebay.

Hey man.. I think you've never actually seen a measured difference between a stripped out car and a stock one. My 540i stock is good for a 14.6@99mph. After I removed 300kg of weight from it, tuned it, and shortened the diff, it did a best run of [email protected].

Would you imagine a nearly stock 540i can outpace a Challenger SRT8 from a dig?

Here's a video of my bone stock 540i matching a 355hp Audi S8 from a low roll till around 140mph. Why? Because the S8 weighed 150 kilograms more than my 540i:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsK8Dej76O8&list=UU4NZg7e4Wq6UJNyc5FR9zBA


Here's a video against a tuned S2000 when my car only had a tune on it:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI7PFniE61o&list=UU4NZg7e4Wq6UJNyc5FR9zBA


Stock S2000 is good for 14.1 sec @ 97 mph. Makes sense.

Here's what happened after I stripped it:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkGNEAYOODE&list=UU4NZg7e4Wq6UJNyc5FR9zBA


Stock M3 is good for a 13.3 s @ 104 mph. That M3 had alot of goodies on it, but from a 20mph roll all the way up to 140mph, he couldn't pull a fender on me. WEIGHT.

It's not a couple of tenths. A proper weight reduction will yield you much, much more time than that. My 540i only made 282whp/299wtq, but the weight advantage kept it competitive. And for what it's worth, I kept my dashboard and all electronics and stuff in the front, where I was. Only behind my seats is when the mess started... :p

Even if it made the same power, the Fox will be faster as it is LIGHTER than my STRIPPED 540i bone stock. A 300whp GT40 Fox with the right setup is a car that can dip into the high 12's, which is still fast by today's standard.

Don't get me wrong, I received a lesson in modesty from this bone stock 500+ horsepower Range Rover:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxvUstQg5C0&list=UU4NZg7e4Wq6UJNyc5FR9zBA


More power will eventually win the race, no matter what. I'm the first one to agree to that. My entire point is that basic boltons with the right gearing and good grip, along with a significant diet, will work wonders for the low budget racer.
 
Hey man.. I think you've never actually seen a measured difference between a stripped out car and a stock one. My 540i stock is good for a 14.6@99mph. After I removed 300kg of weight from it, tuned it, and shortened the diff, it did a best run of [email protected].

Would you imagine a nearly stock 540i can outpace a Challenger SRT8 from a dig?

Here's a video of my bone stock 540i matching a 355hp Audi S8 from a low roll till around 140mph. Why? Because the S8 weighed 150 kilograms more than my 540i:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsK8Dej76O8&list=UU4NZg7e4Wq6UJNyc5FR9zBA


Here's a video against a tuned S2000 when my car only had a tune on it:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI7PFniE61o&list=UU4NZg7e4Wq6UJNyc5FR9zBA


Stock S2000 is good for 14.1 sec @ 97 mph. Makes sense.

Here's what happened after I stripped it:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkGNEAYOODE&list=UU4NZg7e4Wq6UJNyc5FR9zBA


Stock M3 is good for a 13.3 s @ 104 mph. That M3 had alot of goodies on it, but from a 20mph roll all the way up to 140mph, he couldn't pull a fender on me. WEIGHT.

It's not a couple of tenths. A proper weight reduction will yield you much, much more time than that. My 540i only made 282whp/299wtq, but the weight advantage kept it competitive. And for what it's worth, I kept my dashboard and all electronics and stuff in the front, where I was. Only behind my seats is when the mess started... :p

Even if it made the same power, the Fox will be faster as it is LIGHTER than my STRIPPED 540i bone stock. A 300whp GT40 Fox with the right setup is a car that can dip into the high 12's, which is still fast by today's standard.

Don't get me wrong, I received a lesson in modesty from this bone stock 500+ horsepower Range Rover:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxvUstQg5C0&list=UU4NZg7e4Wq6UJNyc5FR9zBA


More power will eventually win the race, no matter what. I'm the first one to agree to that. My entire point is that basic boltons with the right gearing and good grip, along with a significant diet, will work wonders for the low budget racer.

The fox had no cup holders but it had two ashtrays.... must have been a wild time in the '80s. Many mustangs in your neck of the woods?
 
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Hey man.. I think you've never actually seen a measured difference between a stripped out car and a stock one.

More power will eventually win the race, no matter what. I'm the first one to agree to that. My entire point is that basic boltons with the right gearing and good grip, along with a significant diet, will work wonders for the low budget racer.

I understand weight/hp ratio but your original post catered more toward the GT-40 $/hp being a better budget build for HP gains. Making a car lighter is not cheap. There is only so much you can unbolt and toss out before it starts to cost you money to lose weight. A quality Kmember isn't cheap and a MM Kmember really does offer weight savings, K members also normally require the use of coil overs which aren't cheap either, a fiberglass hood will run you about $800 after you paint it. The interior in a fox doesn't weigh that much and won't net you a full 1 second off your 1/4 mile time. Besides that, most of us aren't into completely gutting our cars and sitting on a 5 gal bucket while racing. We want to go fast while having a functional car to drive around town.

Also I haven't seen any people hit that magic 300 rwhp with a modified GT-40 setup. People typically get 260-280 rwhp. Check out the Guess My HP thread and look at peoples combos.
 
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I understand weight/hp ratio but your original post catered more toward the GT-40 $/hp being a better budget build for HP gains. Making a car lighter is not cheap. There is only so much you can unbolt and toss out before it starts to cost you money to lose weight. A quality Kmember isn't cheap and a MM Kmember really does offer weight savings, K members also normally require the use of coil overs which aren't cheap either, a fiberglass hood will run you about $800 after you paint it. The interior in a fox doesn't weigh that much and won't net you a full 1 second off your 1/4 mile time. Besides that, most of us aren't into completely gutting our cars and sitting on a 5 gal bucket while racing. We want to go fast while having a functional car to drive around town.

Also I haven't seen any people hit that magic 300 rwhp with a modified GT-40 setup. People typically get 260-280 rwhp. Check out the Guess My HP thread and look at peoples combos.

I agree in entirety. The BMW, being a BMW, weighed 1750kg bone stock. Heated seats. Double panoramic sunroof. Leather ski hold in the middle armrest. You name it. :p I know the Mustang won't lose as much, but it will lose plenty.

The HVAC system will go, the glass will be switched to plastic (besides the front), all sound insulation, everything. Simply everything will go besides the dashboard, cluster, and 2 seats. I even took the bumpers off, and replaced the steel bar behind the bumper with a (fiberglass? donno what it's called in English) barrier off of a BMW E30. That alone was a hefty part. The thick steel plates that were in my doors are also gone... My Fox is so light right now I can literally push it with a finger (no driveline though). Stock gas tank is also gone, replaced by a 20L unit in the trunk. I agree that you'd want a car to use everyday, but as I mentioned, Foxxy isn't my only ride. I have the other BMW (850i/6) as well as a Jeep and Jetta to drive around, so I don't really mind.

My next step for weight reduction, as you mentioned, is an aftermarket k-member and aluminum heads.

Fun fact... I actually had to use a 5 gallon bucket for a few minutes as I drove it next door to install my lightweight Recaro's. :)

Anyways, don't want to keep going off-topic here. I'll post updates in a thread as soon as the car is fully done with the bodyshop. As we speak, the cage is being prepped for install.

ps: you're right about the 300whp number. I'm hoping with a bit of porting, decking the heads, and using our excellent fuel will help me get closer to that number. But still... you're right. No guarantees.
 
I have a 300 srt8 didnt cost me no where near 40k..50k...60k to go 11s...actually it was cheaper then what my Fox cost me to build...see sig...oh yeah my srt8 with me in it is 4480 lbs too...
 
Well if we are going to get into validity, a Chrysler 300 SRT8 isn't a muscle car, its a luxury sport...........the mention of what a car costs was a reference to what you would pay today for a muscle car that barely gets past 13 sec's, not what any one has actually bought. While we are on validity, this thread no longer has any. It went from "can I beat him" to "how fast he will run" to your parts are worthless to now how much money you have to spend to be able to run.
 
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And you posted weight reduction and this and that...I merely meant for what you have to put into a foxbody money wise to go 12s to 11s it really can cost a pretty penny..I used my other car as an example cost less then my turbo fox body to build and hauls for what you call a luxury car...lol