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Once you set the crank trigger at 50* it will never be moved again, the timing offset is adjusted in the ecu to sync the two to read the same. By moving the crank trigger pickup to try and snyc the timing you are only exacerbating the situation.
When you drop the distributor, the cam sync is a little goofy. I've had the most success spinning the motor over to the peak torque timing (i'm guessing around 22 degrees in your case) and dropping the distributor in the motor. Align the tip of the rotor with the #1 pin on the dist cap and lock that sucker down. As mentioned above, with the timing locked in the ecu you can verify the timing with a light and adjust the crack offset until the ecu and timing pointer match.
Shoot me a PM if you can't get a hold of Kris today
 
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I see what you're saying, Nick. Wouldn't it be a good idea to change the cranking timing in the ECU to match what I actually see with the timing light? Right now I'm getting 22 degrees with the light, but the computer is set to 20 degrees. It's my understanding doing that change will get everything closer to being synchronized properly right off the bat. I can then adjust the inductive delay in the crank trigger settings to make sure the timing is synchronized throughout the rpm range once I get things running. Maybe it's a moot point because everything can be synced afterwards in the ECU.

I marked the hell out of the distributor before I removed it. I do believe I have that back in the exact same spot as before when the engine was at TDC. I'll double check that again too just to see where the rotor is when the engine is sitting at 22 degrees.
 
I see what you're saying, Nick. Wouldn't it be a good idea to change the cranking timing in the ECU to match what I actually see with the timing light? Right now I'm getting 22 degrees with the light, but the computer is set to 20 degrees. It's my understanding doing that change will get everything closer to being synchronized properly right off the bat. I can then adjust the inductive delay in the crank trigger settings to make sure the timing is synchronized throughout the rpm range once I get things running. Maybe it's a moot point because everything can be synced afterwards in the ECU.

I marked the hell out of the distributor before I removed it. I do believe I have that back in the exact same spot as before when the engine was at TDC. I'll double check that again too just to see where the rotor is when the engine is sitting at 22 degrees.
I would not mess with the cranking timing at all, 2 degrees of offset shouldn't affect the way the car runs so horribly that it can't run. I've seen as much as 10 degrees of offset with my car depending on where the cam degrees at. Once you get the car running, lock the timing so that is will not fluctuate (we usually lock mine at 25 fwiw) and verify with the light. After doing so you can add or subtract to the crank reference offset until the light and timing pointer match. I think by adjusting the cranking timing you are adding complexity to the situation that is already complex enough to make your head spin clean off
 
Oh my head spun off days ago. Danny on the Holley forums was right when he said that synchronizing the time is the easiest thing to do, but the hardest thing to figure out.

Everything should be in the proper spot now. Crank trigger magnet at 50 degrees, distributor in the correct spot, and a solid 22 degrees cranking timing. I'll leave the computer as is and adjust the timing while it's locked down to make sure it doesn't fluctuate as I rev the engine. Thanks for the help! I'll report back later tonight.
 
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Wait till you get to the dyno to fix the inductive delay and the timing offset. It can be a PIA to do it alone and the holley gets confusing with ignition changes cause the ones you are trying to make need the key to be cycled on and off to lock them in. If you mess up the order it gets tricky, been there done that, it is best to have 2 people who know the system check it together, one in the car, one with the light working the laptop.
 
You make a good point about the inductive delay. It's a very specific process. I'm going to go through it at least a little bit to familiarize myself with the process, because it's something I definitely need to learn to do. The car will be at the tuner sooner than later to get the final tuning done. I'm dying to finally enjoy this car.
 
I double checked the distributor position. Dead nuts on the #1 plug when the crank is at 22 degrees. That's based off the marks I put on it from when the car was last running. All should be well to fire this up again.
 
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She fired up fine. Still having the same cold idle issue as before, but I expected that. That idle is surging a bit once it's warmed up, but it will idle on its own. I couldn't get a good reading at idle because of the surging. Varied between 16 and 22 degrees. I locked out the timing at 25 degrees and disabled the idle spark. The balancer was reading 27 degrees. I revved the engine a bit and the timing didn't seem to move at all. Good sign that things are close. I want to change the oil again before I play with it anymore. At least we are in the ballpark and she is running that way she should be. I still think I have a tiny coolant leak from the water pump area though. Arrrgh!
 
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@90lxcoupe, are you using the flying magnet wheel as well? In the crank sensor settings, I don't have an option for timing offset. I only have inductive delay. If my idle timing is off 2 degrees, I believe the only way I can compensate for that is to adjust the the cranking timing in the software, which then synchronizes the idle timing as well. Correct me if I'm wrong with my thinking.

It makes sense to me that you can't create an offset for a 1 pulse per fire crank trigger. I just want to be sure that the only way to synchronize the idle timing (with my style trigger wheel) is to synchronize the cranking timing first.
 
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Yes i am using the magnets, i have them right in my balancer, to offset the timing you need to adjust the ignition reference angle in the ignition settings. I believe that one needs to be set, then send it to the ECU, then cycle the key off, then resync and choose the get file from ECU option, then verify that the tune file changed, then check it with the light again. I am just going by memory on this so i could be off on the exact steps but the ignition reference angle is what needs to be adjusted. I do not recall messing with the idle timing setting much.

Good read on the holley forums...
Synchronizing Ignition Timing - Holley EFI
 
You must have one of those fancy innovators West balancers. Those are sweet.

I must have read that post 1000 times over the past few days. With the crank sensor being set for digital falling, that must mean that the wheel magnet should be lined up with the falling edge of the sensor at 50 degrees, and not dead center of the sensor. That may be where my 2 degree difference is coming from. I believe I have the magnet at the middle of the sensor right now. That brings be back to the cranking timing. I could either bump that 2 degrees or move the crank sensor. Seems like six of one, half dozen of the other. I just know something needs to be adjusted to get the timing synchronized, because it's definitely 2 degrees off right now.
 
I don't have any actual application experience with this so disregard it if you want, but to me, it makes more sense to line the magnet up with the falling edge on the sensor so that everything reads true. When you start compensating for it in other places, it can get confusing later on when you need to adjust it. 3 years from now, you may find yourself wondering why the cranking timing is advanced because you forgot what it is compensating for. Or am I missing something bigger?
 
I would just move it in the computer, I actually have the ati balancer so yea i cant move the magnets. My opinion is it will never be perfect on the balancer and that is why the ecu is adjustable. I think trying to move it 2 degrees mechanically will lead to you chasing your tail and you will end up fine tuning it in the software
 
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@hoopty5.0, Based on what I've read from Holley, the cranking timing is more of a synchronization setting and not a compensation setting. So in my case, I am seeing 22 degrees during cranking with a light. I need to tell the computer that the engine is physically at 22 degrees. That syncs everything up. If for whatever reason I wanted to change to 20 degrees of cranking timing, I would physically move the crank sensor, verify with a light, and then change the cranking timing setting in the computer.

The compensation is the inductive delay setting. That ensures the timing is accurate as the rpms increase. TFI setups seem to need a lot of inductive delay because of the slack in the timing chain affecting the how soon the computer sees what the engine is physically doing. That's one of the benefits of a crank trigger. Instant timing readings back to the computer.
 
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I would just move it in the computer, I actually have the ati balancer so yea i cant move the magnets. My opinion is it will never be perfect on the balancer and that is why the ecu is adjustable. I think trying to move it 2 degrees mechanically will lead to you chasing your tail and you will end up fine tuning it in the software

I agree with you. I'm at the end of the range for my pickup mount, so moving it mechanically means unbolting the crank pulley and clocking the wheel to allow the pickup to be further down the mount. I spoke with Kris at All Out and he said changing the cranking timing in the computer to 22 degrees will be fine. I'll do that tonight and verify it's synchronized. I may not even need to touch the inductive delay. It looked rock solid, but I'll rev it a little higher this time to be sure.
 
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When you rev it to check the inductive delay, dont just give the throttle a quick blip, that wont tell you much, when we did mine i kept it steady around 4000-4500 rpms for a few seconds to get an accurate reading.

We ended up setting the inductive delay so it is still like half a degree retarded to be on the safe side. It was pulling like 2 degrees when we started checking it. Dont worry about that number getting too high either, the holley engineer doug flynn says that anywhere from 10 to 300 is normal.
 
Yea i think so, Luckily, it will retard the timing as a default which is a good thing. I didnt even set mine for a long time and everything was good i was just probably leaving a little power on the table.
 
Yes. If the timing is retarding as the engine is revved, the delay needs to be increased. So a low delay keeps it more retarded.

Now that I finally understand how the Holley works in terms of the ignition setup, it's really not too complicated. Just a real b*tch to decipher the first time around.
 
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