SN95 350hp Possible With Bolt Ons?

leesoc686

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Apr 13, 2016
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wondering if 350hp to the rear wheels is actually possible with just bolt on mods? i want to get my sn95 on the dyno here soon but live an hour an a half from phoenix. this is what i have installed so far on my manual 95 gt 156k miles.
-bbk CAI
-bbk LT headers
-bbk 70mm TB
-bbk off road xpipe
-bama 4bank eliminator chip
- flowmaster cats
i plan on installing a cam and gt40x heads here soon as well. any ideas of what im pushing for rwhp as of now with my current mods?
 

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wondering if 350hp to the rear wheels is actually possible with just bolt on mods? i want to get my sn95 on the dyno here soon but live an hour an a half from phoenix. this is what i have installed so far on my manual 95 gt 156k miles.
-bbk CAI
-bbk LT headers
-bbk 70mm TB
-bbk off road xpipe
-bama 4bank eliminator chip
- flowmaster cats
i plan on installing a cam and gt40x heads here soon as well. any ideas of what im pushing for rwhp as of now with my current mods?
I'd say that it's entirely possible..........

Right after Hell freezes over.

The engine was rated at 215 flywheel HP brand new. Eliminate 20% of that for drivetrain loss to get a RWHP figure....

Lets just say you had 175 at the wheels.

Brand new.

But your car aint brand new, it has 156 k on it. And it's a GT. It has seen some abuse. But the engines weather well, and they stay relatively well sealed up during their lifespan,.so we'll only subtract 5% of that for age.....

You have a whopping 168 RWHP.

Now,.....what do we add from all of your mods?.......
25 HP.
Your car currently makes a brutal 193 WHP.

Your plans to install X heads, and a cam will add another 50 to that number (maybe),..so I'm thinking that you may see 235-245 RWHP after all of that.

Where you're gonna get that extra 100 HP to satisfy your HP target, is gonna have to come from a whole bunch of extra cubic inches, a blue bottle, or a compressor.
 
It's possible with a real good hci. Gt40s and a canned tune won't get you there. Something like Tfs 190s, Holley systemax, and custom cam and dyno tune will get you pretty close though with the right supporting mods and attentive assembly.
 
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I'd say that it's entirely possible..........

Right after Hell freezes over.

The engine was rated at 215 flywheel HP brand new. Eliminate 20% of that for drivetrain loss to get a RWHP figure....

Lets just say you had 175 at the wheels.

Brand new.

But your car aint brand new, it has 156 k on it. And it's a GT. It has seen some abuse. But the engines weather well, and they stay relatively well sealed up during their lifespan,.so we'll only subtract 5% of that for age.....

You have a whopping 168 RWHP.

Now,.....what do we add from all of your mods?.......
25 HP.
Your car currently makes a brutal 193 WHP.

Your plans to install X heads, and a cam will add another 50 to that number (maybe),..so I'm thinking that you may see 235-245 RWHP after all of that.

Where you're gonna get that extra 100 HP to satisfy your HP target, is gonna have to come from a whole bunch of extra cubic inches, a blue bottle, or a compressor.
I think this post right here proves that you need to stay out of threads like this. The guy comes in here and asks a reasonable question that has a realistic answer, and as usual in a power/go fast thread, you go on a rant that does nothing but to demoralize the op and essentially call him an idiot for wanting to upgrade his car. If you look around, there's a lot of us who have gotten close to or surpassed the goal the op asked about, it's actually fairly common and not that complex just takes proper parts selection and being able to ask questions (remember the only stupid question is the one not asked) without fear of being bashed.
 
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I think this post right here proves that you need to stay out of threads like this. The guy comes in here and asks a reasonable question that has a realistic answer, and as usual in a power/go fast thread, you go on a rant that does nothing but to demoralize the op and essentially call him an idiot for wanting to upgrade his car. If you look around, there's a lot of us who have gotten close to or surpassed the goal the op asked about, it's actually fairly common and not that complex just takes proper parts selection and being able to ask questions (remember the only stupid question is the one not asked) without fear of being bashed.

I guess if you want the forum filled up with the same questions asked every 20-40 posts....

Just how hard is it exactly for somebody to find out the answer to that question w/o ever asking it, by simply reading what is here instead of re asking it for the bazillionth time?
http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...4-mile-time-thread.677534/page-3#post-8961851

At the very top of this forum I found the answer in exactly one minute. Longer than it took probably to write the initial post.

There are instances where the exact same question will be asked sometimes in the exact same page, and people cant even be bothered to read down the page. That question, and the myriad of "how much power/How fast" questions are actually stickied for the sole purpose of doing just that.

But,..like you said. I don't have the tolerance for people that won't help themselves. I'll leave answering the same questions to the others that do.
 
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Mikes first post was on point. A bit harsh in the reality of the situation? I guess if you woke up grumpy this morning it could be.
To the op, that combo with your mods may tip the scales at 250-60 to the crank. You made no mention of an intake which at this point is holding you back.
 
wondering if 350hp to the rear wheels is actually possible with just bolt on mods? i want to get my sn95 on the dyno here soon but live an hour an a half from phoenix. this is what i have installed so far on my manual 95 gt 156k miles.
-bbk CAI
-bbk LT headers
-bbk 70mm TB
-bbk off road xpipe
-bama 4bank eliminator chip
- flowmaster cats
i plan on installing a cam and gt40x heads here soon as well. any ideas of what im pushing for rwhp as of now with my current mods?
Don't let Mike fluster you, he can seem real bitchy at times. BUT, he is a wealth of knowledge.

If you ever spent time in the military, and you had a choice for who your buddy would be when things got real tight, Mike would be one of those.

Better heads than the gt40 type would improve things for you. Though my little motor is rated at 350 at the crank and it has gt40x heads. In retrospect, I would have gone with a nice set of AFR's. Still, a daily driver with 275+rwhp is a nice thing (don't get me wrong, 650 would be WAY better and make me giggle like a little girl).

Lots of things in your motor make it real. Do a head, cam, intake swap that work together, like TFS, or Edelbrock. You'll have your goal with these things. A slightly higher compression rate would be a boon too. I'm at 9.5-1 for my little engine.
 
Do the math...

The common figure for power loss through the drivetrain is 15%-20%. So subtract that .15 from 1.00 and you get .85
To get 350 rear wheel HP, take that 350 and divide it by . 85 = 411.76HP at the flywheel.

Let's recalculate using a 20% loss...
So subtract that .20 from 1.00 and you get .80
To get 350 rear wheel HP, take that 350 and divide it by . 80 = 437.5 HP at the flywheel.


The odds of getting that kind of HP out of a stock block, pushrod engine without pressurized induction or NO2 are very small. And if by some miraculous combination of parts and tuning you did do that, it would be unpleasant to daily drive on the street. The engine would have to be high RPM rev monster with very little torque in the 1200-3000 RPM range where most street driving is done.

In short, if you want that kind of performance by just turning wrenches, buy a Coyote crate engine and control pack and a few add ons...
 
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I think this post right here proves that you need to stay out of threads like this. The guy comes in here and asks a reasonable question that has a realistic answer, and as usual in a power/go fast thread, you go on a rant that does nothing but to demoralize the op and essentially call him an idiot for wanting to upgrade his car. If you look around, there's a lot of us who have gotten close to or surpassed the goal the op asked about, it's actually fairly common and not that complex just takes proper parts selection and being able to ask questions (remember the only stupid question is the one not asked) without fear of being bashed.
Agreed. People should just stay out of these threads if they can't show some respect and come off as a jerk like @madmike1157

I think these threads are fun when we get to spend other people's money. Also to note that a few people have had impressive results with a GT-40 combo pulling in about 260-275 rwhp. Not sure what the cost difference would've been if they had just gone with your typical aluminum TFS or AFR head but it's not a lost cause to go with GT40's if you're not too power hungry.

I think a good bang for buck combo is a worked over set of gt-40 heads, t-moss explorer intake, custom cam, Vortech V3. The stock block would be safe and this combo should shred lots newer cars with the 375-400rwhp you have (give or take).
 
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I'd say that it's entirely possible..........

Right after Hell freezes over.

The engine was rated at 215 flywheel HP brand new. Eliminate 20% of that for drivetrain loss to get a RWHP figure....

Lets just say you had 175 at the wheels.

Brand new.

But your car aint brand new, it has 156 k on it. And it's a GT. It has seen some abuse. But the engines weather well, and they stay relatively well sealed up during their lifespan,.so we'll only subtract 5% of that for age.....

You have a whopping 168 RWHP.

Now,.....what do we add from all of your mods?.......
25 HP.
Your car currently makes a brutal 193 WHP.

Your plans to install X heads, and a cam will add another 50 to that number (maybe),..so I'm thinking that you may see 235-245 RWHP after all of that.

Where you're gonna get that extra 100 HP to satisfy your HP target, is gonna have to come from a whole bunch of extra cubic inches, a blue bottle, or a compressor.
jamescoburn_zps91bc166d.jpg

But its the truth!. LOL
 
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Do the math...

The common figure for power loss through the drivetrain is 15%-20%. So subtract that .15 from 1.00 and you get .85
To get 350 rear wheel HP, take that 350 and divide it by . 85 = 411.76HP at the flywheel.

Let's recalculate using a 20% loss...
So subtract that .20 from 1.00 and you get .80
To get 350 rear wheel HP, take that 350 and divide it by . 80 = 437.5 HP at the flywheel.


The odds of getting that kind of HP out of a stock block, pushrod engine without pressurized induction or NO2 are very small. And if by some miraculous combination of parts and tuning you did do that, it would be unpleasant to daily drive on the street. The engine would have to be high RPM rev monster with very little torque in the 1200-3000 RPM range where most street driving is done.

In short, if you want that kind of performance by just turning wrenches, buy a Coyote crate engine and control pack and a few add ons...
While I'm all for a coyote motor...this is antiquated advise. Love your tech advise J but this just isn't entirely true. With the proper parts you can come darn close to this mystical "350rwhp". Heck Nic built his as a daily driver(around 340rwhp) and has a very very mild cam. To get to this power level the op is going to need some very good flowing heads. NOTHING gt40! They won't come close(maybe 300whp). Going to take at least a 190cc head(some have come close with AFR 165's also). There are a lot of 400 flywheel horsepower 302's these days. And it doesn't take some crazy aggressive cam profile to get there. For example the custom I had done was 223/227* dur at .050 with .525 lift. Not much different than the almighty B cam and surely is driveable and makes way more power down low than a stock motor. Now it is going to be "lumpy" and isn't docile like a stock cam obviously.

Is such a motor going to be a "torque monster"? Not really, but it will still make more power in the off idle-2500rpm range than a stock motor. It also will start adding significantly from that rpm range up to redline. With the proper parts the ENTIRE power band will be increased. Takes good parts DESIGNED for that operating range. Which means BIG heads,higher flowing intake,tb,MAF,fuel system,proper cam timing,exhaust system,and some ECU tuning. The days of some giant cam that limits vacuum for brakes, and is silly soft down low, are over. Heck look at the dreaded LS pushrod motors. Big heads and mild cams=400+hp and with small tweaks they make well into the 500hp range N/A. Our little pushrod 302's are more than capable of 400 hp. Just takes good parts that cost significant money. The op isn't going to get there with his planned parts but if that truly is the goal(350whp) it can be done. For all the older members, anybody remember Nic's build? He's been daily driving it for years(330-340whp w/shorty headers and a cam with 218* duration).
 
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While I'm all for a coyote motor...this is antiquated advise. Love your tech advise J but this just isn't entirely true. With the proper parts you can come darn close to this mystical "350rwhp". Heck Nic built his as a daily driver(around 340rwhp) and has a very very mild cam. To get to this power level the op is going to need some very good flowing heads. NOTHING gt40! They won't come close(maybe 300whp). Going to take at least a 190cc head(some have come close with AFR 165's also). There are a lot of 400 flywheel horsepower 302's these days. And it doesn't take some crazy aggressive cam profile to get there. For example the custom I had done was 223/227* dur at .050 with .525 lift. Not much different than the almighty B cam and surely is driveable and makes way more power down low than a stock motor. Now it is going to be "lumpy" and isn't docile like a stock cam obviously.

Is such a motor going to be a "torque monster"? Not really, but it will still make more power in the off idle-2500rpm range than a stock motor. It also will start adding significantly from that rpm range up to redline. With the proper parts the ENTIRE power band will be increased. Takes good parts DESIGNED for that operating range. Which means BIG heads,higher flowing intake,tb,MAF,fuel system,proper cam timing,exhaust system,and some ECU tuning. The days of some giant cam that limits vacuum for brakes, and is silly soft down low, are over. Heck look at the dreaded LS pushrod motors. Big heads and mild cams=400+hp and with small tweaks they make well into the 500hp range N/A. Our little pushrod 302's are more than capable of 400 hp. Just takes good parts that cost significant money. The op isn't going to get there with his planned parts but if that truly is the goal(350whp) it can be done. For all the older members, anybody remember Nic's build? He's been daily driving it for years(330-340whp w/shorty headers and a cam with 218* duration).
Yep. 33x whp with massive heads and a little bitty cam.
 
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Agreed. People should just stay out of these threads if they can't show some respect and come off as a jerk like @madmike1157

I think these threads are fun when we get to spend other people's money. Also to note that a few people have had impressive results with a GT-40 combo pulling in about 260-275 rwhp. Not sure what the cost difference would've been if they had just gone with your typical aluminum TFS or AFR head but it's not a lost cause to go with GT40's if you're not too power hungry.

I think a good bang for buck combo is a worked over set of gt-40 heads, t-moss explorer intake, custom cam, Vortech V3. The stock block would be safe and this combo should shred lots newer cars with the 375-400rwhp you have (give or take).
I'm one of those that had both Gt40p irons and a decent aluminum head on the same short block. The Gt40/tfs1/streetheat setup made 275 to tire through a t5 (which commonly steals about 12%). The tfs170/tfs2/rpm2 setup made 330 through a tko. Best mph with the irons was around 102 iirc, the tfs was 110-111 (same as my stock coyote).

Cost? I paid 600 for an explorer motor, $100 in springs, and a $150 cam, paid around $350 for the intake (the explorer would have worked fine, but already had the tfs). Used the stock rockers and lifters with new (.050 longer) push rods.

The tfs heads were around 1k, 250 for the bigger cam, roller rockers, push rods, and 400 for the used rpm2 that needed a couple helicoils and a paint job.
 
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350 rwhp is totally possible, and been done, hell hasn't frozen over yet, still plenty of people headed that way everyday.

It will depend alot on the health of your short block. I would go with a 205 11r head, as much compression as you can get and stay below 11:1. A tfs r intake, or a heavily ported systemax. 90mm throttle body, custom cam, long tube headers with at least 1 3/4" tubes and 3" collector, and of course, all the matching fuel system with a tune.

That combo would make well over 400 fwhp all day.

Joe
 
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The 411-437 flywheel HP figures means that you may have a stock block but that is where the similarity ends.

So far out of all the posts I have seek only clean LX has come anywhere near these numbers.
See his story at http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/na-306-e7te-heads-336hp-313tq.874305/ He spent a pile of money to do it, but his is the closest to the OP’s desire for 350 rear wheel HP out of 302 cu in.

What has to be done to make those kinds of numbers?
1.) The engine may have a stroker kit that expands the 302 cu in to 327-347 range.

2.) An engine is basically an air pump. That means you have to suck up a lot more air and mix it with the properly metered amount of fuel to make that kind of power. In order to make that happen you have in increase the airflow into the cylinders. There are 3 ways to make that happen

A.) Increase the port volume, and flow in CFM.
This does work but the low RPM intake air velocity makes for a sluggish car at low RPM. You have to wind the engine up past 3000 RPM to get the performance level that you want. Driving in stop and go city traffic is a big headache When you do find an opening in traffic, you have to find some method to get the revs up into the range where the engine pulls hard and doesn't bog. That means you need a loose torque converter or you slip the clutch.

B.) Valve opening and closing rates, cam timing and overlap.
The valve train in a pushrod engine and especially one with stud or pedestal mounted rocker arms does not take well to suddenly opening a valve and closing it just as quickly. Very high ramp rates are a characteristic of a small engine that has any kind of decent low RPM performance and this requires a very stiff and sturdy valve train. Wind the engine up above 6500 RPM and the inertia of the moving parts plays havoc with the valve timing unless you have some super duty valve springs and maybe solid lifters. Shaft mounted rocker arms can fix some of this but they won’t cure heavy valves and mismatched valve springs. Cam timing is fixed in 302 engines, whatever you did with the advance/retard trick sprocket or offset is what you are stuck with. The newer engines have a computer controlled cam advance/retard that gives them some advantage that Fox 5.0 pushrod engines don’t have.
The same is true of valve overlap; the exhaust valve and intake valve are open at the same time. This is to help scavenge the engine exhaust and make up for the inertia of the slow moving air column that will fill the cylinder. Normally, when the intake valve opens, it takes a finite amount of time to develop enough air flow velocity to move the air quickly enough to fill the cylinder 100%. The trouble is that this only works well at a cruse RPM range or higher. That’s why some cams cause the engine idle to lope or surge. The incomplete scavenging of the exhaust gases causes dilution of the incoming air/fuel charge. That lope or surge hurts low RPM/low speed performance, making for uncomfortable street driving unless the car has 4.xx or numerically higher rear axle gears to keep the RPMs up. It is a must to keep the engine turning enough RPMs to smooth out the pulsing nature of increased valve overlap.

C.) Careful tuning of the lengths of the exhaust and intake manifold runners can make the valve overlap work to the advantage of higher HP output. If the length of the intake runner is tuned correctly, then at a specific engine RPM range with the valve opens the air charge in the intake has hit the manifold plenum and reverberated back to the intake valve. That intake valve opens and finds a column of air pressing against it, waiting to get in the cylinder. The same effect works in reverse on the exhaust. The tuning works to insure that there is lower pressure at the exterior of exhaust port than the incoming intake air charge. Thus it sucks out the exhaust gases and sucks in the intake air/fuel charge.
3.) Run the engine at very high RPM.
A small displacement engine like a 302 would need to wind up to the 7000 RPM range. That means a stiffer block and everything balanced to perfection. Both of those concepts are expensive to implement and require some very high quality machine work and assembly. As RPM increases, the forces trying to tear everything apart increase at a rate faster than the increase in RPM. Remember that this is supposed to be a stock block and probably a stock crank and rods.
 
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That build you linked to uses stock, e7 heads, and although they're ported, they'll never perform as well as some of the newer aluminum offerings like the tfs 11r's that get into the 300cfm range, which is coyote level flow (400+ HP from the same size cylinders). Granted coyotes are 11:1 where a stock pistoned 302 will max out at around 10:1 with the typical ootb aftermarket heads.
 
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IMO 300-320rwhp is a more reasonable goal with bolt ons. You can get 350rwhp but that means AFR 205 or TW 11R heads, a custom cam, and a tune. I got 292rwhp through an AOD with AFR165's, TFS1 cam, other bolt ons and a tune. That was about 350 crank hp. I would not worry so much on the actual # so much, and more on how it performs and driveability.
 
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The 411-437 flywheel HP figures means that you may have a stock block but that is where the similarity ends.

So far out of all the posts I have seek only clean LX has come anywhere near these numbers.
See his story at http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/na-306-e7te-heads-336hp-313tq.874305/ He spent a pile of money to do it, but his is the closest to the OP’s desire for 350 rear wheel HP out of 302 cu in.

What has to be done to make those kinds of numbers?
1.) The engine may have a stroker kit that expands the 302 cu in to 327-347 range.

2.) An engine is basically an air pump. That means you have to suck up a lot more air and mix it with the properly metered amount of fuel to make that kind of power. In order to make that happen you have in increase the airflow into the cylinders. There are 3 ways to make that happen

A.) Increase the port volume, and flow in CFM.
This does work but the low RPM intake air velocity makes for a sluggish car at low RPM. You have to wind the engine up past 3000 RPM to get the performance level that you want. Driving in stop and go city traffic is a big headache When you do find an opening in traffic, you have to find some method to get the revs up into the range where the engine pulls hard and doesn't bog. That means you need a loose torque converter or you slip the clutch.

B.) Valve opening and closing rates, cam timing and overlap.
The valve train in a pushrod engine and especially one with stud or pedestal mounted rocker arms does not take well to suddenly opening a valve and closing it just as quickly. Very high ramp rates are a characteristic of a small engine that has any kind of decent low RPM performance and this requires a very stiff and sturdy valve train. Wind the engine up above 6500 RPM and the inertia of the moving parts plays havoc with the valve timing unless you have some super duty valve springs and maybe solid lifters. Shaft mounted rocker arms can fix some of this but they won’t cure heavy valves and mismatched valve springs. Cam timing is fixed in 302 engines, whatever you did with the advance/retard trick sprocket or offset is what you are stuck with. The newer engines have a computer controlled cam advance/retard that gives them some advantage that Fox 5.0 pushrod engines don’t have.
The same is true of valve overlap; the exhaust valve and intake valve are open at the same time. This is to help scavenge the engine exhaust and make up for the inertia of the slow moving air column that will fill the cylinder. Normally, when the intake valve opens, it takes a finite amount of time to develop enough air flow velocity to move the air quickly enough to fill the cylinder 100%. The trouble is that this only works well at a cruse RPM range or higher. That’s why some cams cause the engine idle to lope or surge. The incomplete scavenging of the exhaust gases causes dilution of the incoming air/fuel charge. That lope or surge hurts low RPM/low speed performance, making for uncomfortable street driving unless the car has 4.xx or numerically higher rear axle gears to keep the RPMs up. It is a must to keep the engine turning enough RPMs to smooth out the pulsing nature of increased valve overlap.

C.) Careful tuning of the lengths of the exhaust and intake manifold runners can make the valve overlap work to the advantage of higher HP output. If the length of the intake runner is tuned correctly, then at a specific engine RPM range with the valve opens the air charge in the intake has hit the manifold plenum and reverberated back to the intake valve. That intake valve opens and finds a column of air pressing against it, waiting to get in the cylinder. The same effect works in reverse on the exhaust. The tuning works to insure that there is lower pressure at the exterior of exhaust port than the incoming intake air charge. Thus it sucks out the exhaust gases and sucks in the intake air/fuel charge.
3.) Run the engine at very high RPM.
A small displacement engine like a 302 would need to wind up to the 7000 RPM range. That means a stiffer block and everything balanced to perfection. Both of those concepts are expensive to implement and require some very high quality machine work and assembly. As RPM increases, the forces trying to tear everything apart increase at a rate faster than the increase in RPM. Remember that this is supposed to be a stock block and probably a stock crank and rods.
Again...points (a) (b) and (c) aren't accurate and dated. But I'm not going to argue. For the people that have done it...kudos. For the ones that ever look this thread up...it can be done and very streetable/reliable. Doesn't take shaft rockers,7k rpms,and other "race" Spec'd parts.
 
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I think the issue with duplicates or the same topics over and over is that without them, no conversations would actually exist. There really isn't any topic on stangnet that hasn't been covered, so if everyone searched and found their answer there would be nothing for us to read. It's a catch 22, we want people to search, but if they do and revive an old thread, people bust their balls, if they find it and move on, there is no discussion and if they don't search and make a post sometimes their topic gets treated with no respect.
Bottom line, the site needs newbs to ask common questions to survive.

There are many times where I write up a response to a topic, then don't post it. Sometimes it's just better to say nothing at all.

As for the original topic here, 350rwhp is possible, I've seen it with afr 165's. It takes all high end parts, quality installation and you will give up some power down low. While I like gt40x heads, it's likely not happening with them.
 
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