Fox 93 Vert Starts Randomly Bucking After Warmup....

[tomazzo]

Im not sure what the problem could be. The symptoms are that the car seems to idle rough when cold, but it runs. It seems to have power with no problem. Especially now that fall is here. Its not until it gets to operating temperature and has been that way for say 20 minutes it will buck once or twice when i accelerate around 2000 rpm. I cant cruise around there because it will randomly buck. you can see the tach drop momentarily then come back. I ran koeo test and got 11 only. Ran koer and got a 12 and 18. Im looking at the Iac and the tps. the tps because I tried metering the voltage on the sensor, and as I open the throttle when the voltage gets to about 2vdc, the meter blinks like maybe a bad spot ? It wont do it going down-closing the valve, only when it is opened, and right at 2vdc. If I run the engine and meter, 2vdc seems to be real high rpms, like 4000 or more, (im guessing because I cant read the meter and see the tach) based on the high rev of the engine as opposed to 2000rpm. also, once it warms up, i can sit at idle, and run the tach to about 2000 rpms, and it will cut out then come back, just like when I am driving. you can see the tach drop about 500rpm then jump back to where it should be.

should the tps meter like that, or is that a problem? also, i saw a thread about someone with a code 12 and his turned out to be the iac. Dont want to throw parts at it without some kind of verification.

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[Moosee1955]

Most tps switches when right will smoothly go to 3,5 or so. I'd replace switch. Get a dealer one if available, aftermarkets are hit and miss. Do you have a single ignition coil? Clean out tower of coil and dist cap. Put a dab of electrolytic grease on both ends. What car do you have? What engine?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tomazzo]

5.0 lx convertible

 

[jrichker]

TPS Troubleshooting and testing

Revised 2 July 2014 to reflect changes in resistance values for testing of TPS wiring.

Setting the TPS: you'll need a good Digital Voltmeter (DVM) to do the job. Set the TPS voltage at .5- 1.1 range. Because of the variables involved with the tolerances of both computer and DVM, I would shoot for somewhere between .6 and 1.0 volts. Unless you have a Fluke or other high grade DVM, the second digit past the decimal point on cheap DVM’s is probably fantasy. Since the computer zeros out the TPS voltage every time it powers up, playing with the settings isn't an effective aid to performance or drivability. The main purpose of checking the TPS is to make sure it isn't way out of range and causing problems.


Wire colors & functions:
Orange/white = 5 volt VREF from the computer
Dark Green/lt green = TPS output to computer
Black/white = Signal ground from computer

TPS troubleshooting steps:
1.) Use the Orange/white & Black white wires to verify the TPS has the correct 5 volts source from the computer.
2.) Use the Dark Green/lt green & Black/white wires to set the TPS base voltage. Try this... All you need is less than 1.0 volt at idle and more than 4.25 at Wide Open Throttle (WOT). You'll need a voltmeter with a 1 or 3 volt low scale to do the job.

The Orange/White wire is the VREF 5 volts from the computer. You use the Dark Green/Lt green wire (TPS signal) and the Black/White wire (TPS ground) to set the TPS. Use a pair of safety pins to probe the TPS connector from the rear of the connector. You may find it a little difficult to make a good connection, but keep trying. Put the safety pins in the Dark Green/Lt green wire and Black/White wire. Make sure the ignition switch is in the Run position but the engine isn't running. Set the voltmeter on the 2 volt range if it doesn’t auto range.

Here’s a TPS tip I got from NoGo50

When you installed the sensor make sure you place it on the peg right and then tighten it down properly. Loosen the back screw a tiny bit so the sensor can pivot and loosen the front screw enough so you can move it just a little in very small increments. I wouldn’t try to adjust it using marks.

(copied from MustangMax, Glendale AZ)

A.) Always adjust the TPS and Idle with the engine at operating temp. Dive it around for a bit if you can and get it nice and warm.

B.) When you probe the leads of the TPS, do not use an engine ground, put the ground probe into the lead of the TPS. You should be connecting both meter probes to the TPS and not one to the TPS and the other to ground.

C.) Always reset the computer whenever you adjust the TPS or clean/change any sensors. I just pull the battery lead for 10 minutes.

D.) The key is to adjust the TPS voltage and reset the computer whenever the idle screw is changed.

The TPS is a variable resistor, must like the volume control knob on a cheap radio. We have all heard them crackle and pop when the volume is adjusted. The TPS sensor has the same problem: wear on the resistor element makes places that create electrical noise. This electrical noise confuses the computer, because it expects to see a smooth increase or decrease as the throttle is opened or closed.

TPS testing: most of the time a failed TPS will set code 23 or 63, but not always. Use either an analog meter or a DVM with an analog bar graph and connect the leads as instructed above. Turn the ignition switch to the Run position, but do not start the engine. Note the voltage with the throttle closed. Slowly open the throttle and watch the voltage increase smoothly, slowly close the throttle and watch the voltage decrease smoothly. If the voltage jumps around and isn’t smooth, the TPS has some worn places in the resistor element. When the throttle is closed, make sure that the voltage is the same as what it was when you started. If it varies more than 10%, the TPS is suspect of being worn in the idle range of its travel.

TPS will not go below 1 volt

Note: Make all resistance checks with the ignition switch in the OFF position. Failure to do so will result in incorrect results and may possibly damage the meter.

Engine mounted sensor circuit: Check the resistance between the black/white wire on the TPS and battery ground. It should be less than 1 ohm. Higher resistance than 1 ohm indicates a problem with the 10 pin connector, computer or the splice inside the main harness where the wire from the 10 pin connectors joins the rest of the black/white wire.

See the graphic for the location of the 10 pin connectors:
Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.

Unplug the white 10 pin connector to do some resistance testing. It is good time to clean the connector pins and examine the connector for corrosion, broken wire or other damage. See http://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=85 for help in this department.

If the resistance on the TPS Black/White wire and pin 1 of the white engine fuel injector harness 10 pin connector, is more than 1.0 ohm, you have bad connection or broken wiring. Repeat the test using the pin 1 of the white body side 10 pin connector and battery ground. You should have less that 1 ohm. More than that is a damaged signal ground inside the computer or bad connections or wiring.[/b]

 

[tomazzo]

I went and got a tps and iac based on the previous post. now my idle runs high, about 1000rpm when first started, than gradually goes down as engine warms, as opposed to running at a rough 700rpm idle when first started. still have the bucking though. thought Id at least look at the connections at the salt and pepper shakers, but cant seem to figure out how to open them, and don't want to break them. Ill assume since I can set my tps and it goes below 1 volt to set that those connections are probably ok. One thing I did not mention is that I did change spark plugs, cap rotor, and tfi module in an attempt to fix this problem. none of them fixed it. I did not change the wires because they only have maybe 5000 miles on them. I talked to a customer of mine who is a big fox body guy, and he is leaning towards the coil or the coil wire to distributor? I have a msd ignition box and a msd 3 coil.

 

[Moosee1955]

I agree with the guy that said coil or wire. Msd coils lately have problems. Check the positive and neg leads on coil. Another member had a loose one on his. Again take a wire round brush that will fit into tower of coil. Clean crud out. Emery cloth curled up will work. Blow off debris when done. In another thread I mentioned about how to use ohm meter to check spark plug wires. If you've got headers or even stock manifolds, one of your wires may have burned on Exaust, now causing miss. Pull each one and inspect. Most aftermarket idle air control valves are garbage these days. Better to take yours apart and clean out and put new gaskets and reuse. If you want to replace it, spend the extra, get the one from Ford. Standard makes a decent product but I'd still go Ford. Strong bucking is usually electrical related, but you still might want to do a fuel pressure test to be your fuel flow all the way to injectors is good. One last thing, theirs a procedure on testing if you have a good pickup coil in distributor. Remember that part replaces the old contact points that used to be used on 1974 and older cars. Keep us posted. Moose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jrichker]

Sorry I missed the code 18. It controls the spark advance, which if it changes while cursing could cause your surge condition.

Code 18 - SPOUT out or wiring fault - look for short to ground in SPOUT wiring going
back to the computer. Possible bad TFI or defective 22 K resistor in the IDM wiring

Use a timing light to check the timing: remove the SPOUT and observe that the timing retards at least 4 degrees. Put the SPOUT back in place and observe that the spark advances at least 4 degrees.
This code can disable spark advance and reduce power and fuel economy.

Remove the passenger side kick panel and disconnect the computer connector.
There is a 10 MM bolt that holds it in place.
Disconnect the TFI module connector from the TFI and the measure the resistance between the yellow/lt green wire and ground.
You should see greater than 100 K (100000) ohms.
Check the resistance from Pin 4 on the computer connector (dark green/yellow) and the dark green/yellow wire on the TFI connector. You should see 20-24 K Ohms (20,000-24,0000 ohms).


Resistor location: A big thanks to liljoe07 for this information:

Check over by the brake booster. Its not in the harness on the TFI, its on the main part of the harness over by the plugs that connect to the dash harness. About 6" or so from that, going back toward the EEC.

If I remember right, the resistor is covered in a shrink tubing that is sealed to the wires. So, you wont be able see any markings. The shrink tubing is labeled though. It's a 22kohm 1/2 watt resistor.

Here is the location.

Next measure the resistance between the yellow/lt green wire on the TFI module connector and Pin 36 on the computer connector. With the SPOUT plug in place, you should see less than 2 ohms.

The following is a view from the computer side of the computer connector.

This diagram is the wire side of the computer connector.

Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

 

[tomazzo]

fixed the bucking problem today. Last weekend, I replaced the coil and cleaned up the excess wiring for the msd spark box. I also replaced all my plug wires with new units. I even bypassed the msd spark box to be sure that wasnt causing the problem. While I was doing all of this, and checking my timing, I noticed that when the idle would drop out, like when the car would buck when cruising, the timing light would turn off during the drop in idle indicating no spark. when I revved the engine up past 1800 rpm and the miss got worse, same thing. I talked to some friends and decided that it may be a pip problem, since I had already replaced everyting that had to do with spark. researching the pip, everyone says to change the whole distributor, so i went to autozone and got a new oem complete distributor and put it in. Long story short, once I pulled out the original 23 year old unit and got the tension off of it, I discovered that the bearing for the shaft was gone and was hard to turn. the spinning disc with the windows that move between the hall effect sensor was intermittently making contact with the sensor it self when spinning, so the sensor was loose in the bottom of the distributor. also there was a 1\8th inch slop of the distributor shaft and assembly which allowed the rotor to move up and down 1\8th an inch? anyway, the distributor was worn out and needed to be replaced. Unfortunately, i didnt see all this sooner until i removed the distributor from the car releasing the tension on the rotor shaft. The car now idles clean, and runs great with no more bucking. I drove around for an hour after changing the distributor with the new pip, and no bucking where before I couldnt get 20 minutes out of it. If you change the tfi, and still have a bucking problem that appears to be spark miss, I would just replace the whole distributor since it may be worn out as mine was. the waiting till warm up to start acting up was the key. It seemed to point to an electronics problem. Thanks to all for the help in fixing my ride.

 

[tomazzo]

fixed the bucking problem today. Last weekend, I replaced the coil and cleaned up the excess wiring for the msd spark box. I also replaced all my plug wires with new units. I even bypassed the msd spark box to be sure that wasnt causing the problem. While I was doing all of this, and checking my timing, I noticed that when the idle would drop out, like when the car would buck when cruising, the timing light would turn off during the drop in idle indicating no spark. when I revved the engine up past 1800 rpm and the miss got worse, same thing. I talked to some friends and decided that it may be a pip problem, since I had already replaced everyting that had to do with spark. researching the pip, everyone says to change the whole distributor, so i went to autozone and got a new oem complete distributor and put it in. Long story short, once I pulled out the original 23 year old unit and got the tension off of it, I discovered that the bearing for the shaft was gone and was hard to turn. the spinning disc with the windows that move between the hall effect sensor was intermittently making contact with the sensor it self when spinning, so the sensor was loose in the bottom of the distributor. also there was a 1\8th inch slop of the distributor shaft and assembly which allowed the rotor to move up and down 1\8th an inch? anyway, the distributor was worn out and needed to be replaced. Unfortunately, i didnt see all this sooner until i removed the distributor from the car releasing the tension on the rotor shaft. The car now idles clean, and runs great with no more bucking. I drove around for an hour after changing the distributor with the new pip, and no bucking where before I couldnt get 20 minutes out of it. If you change the tfi, and still have a bucking problem that appears to be spark miss, I would just replace the whole distributor since it may be worn out as mine was. the waiting till warm up to start acting up was the key. It seemed to point to an electronics problem. Thanks to all for the help in fixing my ride.