94 5.0 turns over but will not start!

[angeljenylynn]

yep. will do.

(i really need to learn to wear gloves though... i've never been a glove type of chic, and i always end up with black sooty hands... like right now )

haha.

thanks for all your help in this. i really appreciate it. NOW i'm waiting for the rain to stop so i can fix an exhaust leak in the mustang. (then i have to take out the radiator in my thunderbird and get a new one, too).

ah, the smell of grease in the mornin'. really gets ya goin eh?

again, thanks a million for all your help.

 

[gcomfx.com]

Next time your car is acting up. Watch the plunger on the EGR. Mine would idle rough and run like poo, wouldn't always start either. I could see the plunger on the EGR sticking. I stuck a flat screwdriver in the slot and could pop the plunger loose, then it would run good.

I'll borrow another member's pic to show what I mean:
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n105/parchisi64/tbegr.jpg

Just under the spring is the EGR housing. The plunger is the orange looking part inside the EGR housing slots.

Soon after this, I tossed the EGR and smog stuff.

 

[angeljenylynn]

updates since the other day:

figured out the car doesn't start ONLY when it's been raining. >_>

first time it wouldn't start like this, i had just washed it the night before. then it started on a sunny day, then it rained, it didn't start... started yesterday, which was a sunny day... and its raining again today, well, was this morning, and now won't start.

we had another car that did that in the past, and it turned out to be a cracked distributor cap... so i got one of those today, installed it, and it still won't start.

i ran the code test again... this time got this... "MAF sensor went below 0.4 volts during the last 80 warm-up cycles. "

last night i took the car for a spin to see how it was running, and it was running perfect.

and today, after it rained again... it won't start. what that?!

*pullin hair out*

 

[HISSIN50]

Is there any chance the computer (in the passenger kick panel) is getting wet?

Otherwise, I would go through and open, clean and dress all the wiring connectors under the hood. On foxes, there are the 10 pin connectors that can cause your issue but on 94-95's I believe they went to a huge huge square bulkhead type of connector on the passenger side near the firewall. I hate to open that bad boy up.

Here's what I might do first: Let it dry out and get it running good. Take a spray bottle (or hose) and spray around the engine compartment (being very careful of electrical components and moving parts) and see if you can make the idle change or get the car to start hiccuping. I live in the desert now (I did my time in the wetness of the Pacific NW) so I'm not real up to par on the commonly problematic connections in wet weather. This is something I'd have tried in Seattle though.

Oh, I hear ya about the gloves. I'm sick of stained hands so I try to wear something. Nitrile works well (I don't like mechanics gloves for underhood work because of the lack of feel and dexterity). Nitrile doesnt get in the way though.

Good luck.

 

[gcomfx.com]

Hissin is on the right track with testing while it's running. I have a shot in the dark personal experience to add:

Don't laugh, I had a Festiva at one time. It would run like poo in the rain and finally got to where it wouldn't start. After some investigating it was a fairly simple problem, but a fairly tough fix.

The air filter was COVERED in dirt. It had never been changed in 100,000 miles! The car had A/C added LATER in it's life. They covered the air filter housing when they added the A/C, so it was a PITA to get to.

Lots of dirt + water = MUD Thus the not running in the rain.

You might clean your filter, and your M/A meter. The M/A could have build up on the wires.

 

[Green 94 5.0]

another thing to try would be wetting the car completely like you would if you were washing it, then open the hood and look for any place where water might be leaking into either the engine of passenger compartment. if you find any damp spots, the electrical connector that is getting wet quite possibly may be nearby.

 

[angeljenylynn]

i changed my mass air flow sensor, didn't help matters in itself, but at least i have a new one now... the codes told me that one was bad anyway.

i checked my air filter and man was it filthy :X but that wasn't it either...

so i changed the distrubutor today. whole thing. it didn't start after i did that, but i kept turning the distributor like i was adjusting the timing, and i eventually got it in a place where it started... so i'm hoping that fixed the problem.

imagine that, if it all boiled down to timing? sheesh...

 

[HISSIN50]

It could have been a PIP issue but it should not have been a timing issue.

 

[Green 94 5.0]

It could have been a PIP issue but it should not have been a timing issue.

unless she didnt mark the distributor when she too it out. have you checked your timing since the swap to make sure it is at least at the base 10*?

 

[angeljenylynn]

ok. tell me about the PIP?

and why should it not be a timing issue? over the past few day's i've been having the same problems. won't start when it's cold, (figured out now that it doesnt have anything to do with the weather, wont start on a dry, warm day either)... but it won't start when it (the engine) is cold, though if i turn the distributor a little bit i can make it start, by fooling around with that. the timing is set correctly now, for sure... disconnected the computer before timing it and everything. (after i got it started of course). my guess is that it's not gonna start again tomorrow. (creature of habit, it's becoming...) as soon as it starts up the first time though, it will start again, as long as the engine is still warm.

and my guess is that when it doesn't start tomorrow, i'll fiddle with the distributor again, and it'll start, again.

so. what do you mean about the PIP, and how come it shouldn't be timing?

and... i hate to ask this, but... could my timing chain be slipping? what are the odds that i could need a new timing chain? (please please please say that's very very very unlikely? i don't wanna get into that...) i wouldn't think so, because if it WAS slipping, i'd think i'd be having more problems than it just not starting like it is. it doesn't give me any problems AT ALL after its started... runs GREAT.

guh. maybe it's jealous. i did turn my eyes toward another mustang the other week... :\

It could have been a PIP issue but it should not have been a timing issue.

 

[HISSIN50]

ok. tell me about the PIP?

and why should it not be a timing issue? over the past few day's i've been having the same problems. won't start when it's cold, (figured out now that it doesnt have anything to do with the weather, wont start on a dry, warm day either)... but it won't start when it (the engine) is cold, though if i turn the distributor a little bit i can make it start, by fooling around with that. the timing is set correctly now, for sure... disconnected the computer before timing it and everything. (after i got it started of course). my guess is that it's not gonna start again tomorrow. (creature of habit, it's becoming...) as soon as it starts up the first time though, it will start again, as long as the engine is still warm.

and my guess is that when it doesn't start tomorrow, i'll fiddle with the distributor again, and it'll start, again.

so. what do you mean about the PIP, and how come it shouldn't be timing?

and... i hate to ask this, but... could my timing chain be slipping? what are the odds that i could need a new timing chain? (please please please say that's very very very unlikely? i don't wanna get into that...) i wouldn't think so, because if it WAS slipping, i'd think i'd be having more problems than it just not starting like it is. it doesn't give me any problems AT ALL after its started... runs GREAT.

guh. maybe it's jealous. i did turn my eyes toward another mustang the other week... :\

My comment about it not being timing was from on page one when you noted that it seemed to be an issue of something getting wet. In post 23, for instance, the way your post read was that at on a clear dry night, it fired right up and ran well.

I don't know how much you're turning the dizzy to get it to start, but you can go a pretty great distance and still have an EFI engine start up. If you're timing was rediculously retarded, the engine would fire up but would run really, really poorly. As far as advance, you'd have to be in orbit for it to be a real issue.

You now have it timed properly so it should be moot. I'd stay in the 10*-12* range for right now - that's a safe place to be (as long as your balancer didnt spin, but that's another story).

Based on the wet issue and you turning the dizzy a little bit (I presume), it still sounds like something has a bad connection or a component is failing and you are physically kick starting the component, so to speak.

If your timing chain had jumped a tooth, you'd know it. It would affect performance across the board (the car would not run great at any time. Right now it seems like it runs very well for you once you kick start it).

Have you started it (cold) since you set the timing correctly? If it takes turning the dizzy again to get it to start, you might be right about the PIP. I've never seen one fail where it needed a 'priming' by hand in order to work. Maybe others will have experience with such an issue.

Good luck.

 

[angeljenylynn]

hey thanks for your reply. i'm sorry, with the two pages now i guess i got mixed up

and also, i was writing really quick-like in my last reply, so i can see now that it was a little hard to follow.

what exactly IS the PIP? this, i must admit (though i hate to) is something i really don't know anything about. have absolutely never heard of it.

now that i feel really stupid (for not knowing about a PIP), i'll wait around until you edcuate me =P

 

[HISSIN50]

It's understandable - the PIP thing is before your time. I think PIP started out with Gladys Knight................

PIP = Profile Ignition Pick-up. It is also called a stator (if you need to buy one, ask for a stator. If you ask for a PIP, you'll hear nothing but crickets chirping).

It is the equivalent of a crank trigger in newer cars (if that means anything). It relates to the computer where the number one Piston is, so the spark and injectors can fire at the correct time. When you have the key on and turn your dizzy, you hear the injectors buzz because you're causing the PIP's shudder and window to function. You do hear the injectors buzz when you turned the dizzy, right (I thought so, but it's best to ask).

If your PIP is broken, you end up with no spark and no injector pulsing (that's why Eric asked about it in the second post - it's a biggie).

If you remove the distrbutor cap and look inside the bowl, you will see part of the PIP. Look for metal shavings down inside there (or run a magnet around, as the metal is ferrous). You can also use electrical contact cleaner - spray it around inside the bowl to clean things up.

If you need a new PIP, most folks replace the entire distributor with a remanfactured one from the parts stores. This can be hit or miss, as sometimes the PIP's in those dont hold up very long (but most of those reman'd dizzies are lifetime warranty). To replace the PIP on your current dizzy, you want to ensure the dizzy bushing is already in good shape (if it's not and the mainshaft has excessive run-out, the PIP will not last long). You have to remove the roll pin and the gear off the end of the dizzy mainshaft (it's press fit). Then the guts come out and you press the gear back on and reinstall the roll pin. It can go smooth or fight you (if the holes wont line up).

 

[angeljenylynn]

ignition coil. didn't mess with the distributor at all today. took the coil to auto zone, they tested it, thing was shot.

new one's on, cranked RIGHT up, no problem at all. that was this morning... and after everything cooled off, it still cranked up late this afternoon. and the way it cranked so easily right after installation, i think it'll prolly start tomorrow morning, too.

IGNITION COIL. >_>

thanks for all your help the past two weeks. (eesh, two weeks). but i really, really appreciate it. =)

 

[HISSIN50]

Glad to hear you got it whipped.

So what was the deal with turning the distributor and having it start? And the water/humidity element?
I ask only so future searchers might be able to draw commonalities between your symptoms and solution, and theirs.

Again, nicely done.

 

[angeljenylynn]

this is just a guess, but...

the coil nipple was EXTREMELY corroded, i mean CRAZY covered in white. (i'm surprised it would start at all, one with the corrosion, two with the low voltage on the coil test.) but, i'm figuring that when i'd mess with the dizzy it would pull the coil wire, jiggle it enough to make a little contact. that's just a guess, but it's the only one that really makes any sense to me.

i think i made an earlier post here a couple of days ago that i'd figured out it didn't have anything to do with the weather, that it turned out to be coincidence, but i could've written that someplace else. but either way, it didn't have anything to do with the weather.

on unrelated note (well related, but not in the bad way, haha), i'm going to change my plugs and wires pretty soon, whenever i get the chance, now that i won't be spending all my time wondering what's wrong with the car =P

 

[gcomfx.com]

Good to hear! Those pesky coils. If the coil was working properly and was just corroded at the coil wire and couldn't release the charge through the wire... I bet at night without any lights, you would have seen a pretty good blue light show.

 

[bevbailey]

I was just trying to reiterate the importance of testing systems only when they are acting up (otherwise tests are invalid). Intermittant starting problems can be a real PITA to diagnose. You are obviously performing valid testing and the comment wasn't meant as any sort of knock on you.

I have tried to help folks who PM me before and it would turn out that the diagnostics I outlined were performed while the car would start.

I don't know what the 'book' was talkin about with regard to a relay for the fuel injectors. The closest iteration of a relay in that systems is that the key-on power for the injectors comes from the EEC relay, which is housed inside the CCRM. If the EEC relay fails, you will have massive and widespread systems failures.


To retrieve the codes, see here. The pictures on that site show where a Fox STC is. Ours is in the same spot but on the passenger side of the engine bay.

The issue with the ignition module aspect is that as far as we know, you always had spark (so replacing the module was moot?). Perhaps you have a bad wiring connection and it was luck that 'goosing' the wiring while the module was installed fixed the issue until the connection was bumped again.

I really dont have any hot ideas, other than what has been mentioned.

Good luck.

I tried to find that retrieve codes and it took me to something I don't understand, can you get to me other way?....I have an 01 Bullitt which doesn't want to start occasionally, just cranks and then after sitting for hours to overnite starts without problem....last time Husband said peddle gas and it started but died...bit later started no problem...any ideas (he said threw no codes (on dash) when it started). He thought maybe crankshaft or throttle body sensor?

 

[HISSIN50]

I tried to find that retrieve codes and it took me to something I don't understand, can you get to me other way?....I have an 01 Bullitt which doesn't want to start occasionally, just cranks and then after sitting for hours to overnite starts without problem....last time Husband said peddle gas and it started but died...bit later started no problem...any ideas (he said threw no codes (on dash) when it started). He thought maybe crankshaft or throttle body sensor?

You might want to try posting a thread in the appropriate forum (you're in the '94-95 section).

Good luck.