for all you low-tech guys

[crazynorwegian]

every once and a while I'll get my dad to release a story from his past. this one was actually quite interesting. he had a friend back in the early 80's who had a roadrunner. the car was somewhat built but, the guy almost never lost a race. his trick was he installed a 1000-watt short wave radio amplifier in his car. At the push of a button he could render and newer car with any type of electronic controlled engine temporarily useless. not only would it confuse a cars electric system. it would also light up any florescent light bulb with in 100 feet. the nice thing about it is it would not affect the low tech computerless cars. he never used it on any races for money, just for shutting up the little punk kids royriding in daddies new sports car. does anyone know of people still doing this, besides the police?

 

[2nd Mustang]

Not for racing, but one of my co-workers had a side band CB that set off my car alarm everytime he keyed his mike when I parked next to him.

 

[ForceFed70]

Lol...

I don't want to rag on your Dad... but he's telling a tall tale. Well, except for the "lighting up flourescent bulbs part". I beleive that... but I doubt it had a 100' range.

I don't know how to explain that this is BS without going into a long-ass description of how electronics work. But let me give you a few things to think about.

1) How the heck does the radio amplifier itself work, if the thing "kills all electronics"?

2) People drive by high-powered antenae's (connected to amplifiers) every day and aside from setting off the radar detector the car runs fine.

3) I've personally seen a 1000W microwave with it's shielding removed run in an fuel injected vehicle (an experiment to see if it would jam radar). A microwave produces far better interference than a short wave radio amplifier does.

It's a neat idea... but totally ficticious. Seriously... if it could work, it'd be done already. Cops would love to have somethign like this to end high speed chase. And the military would be all over it...

 

[crazynorwegian]

actually cops do use it. you cant do this with any amplifier, you need the right frequency. he had a ham radio 80-10-meter amplifier, which is much different from your regular rf amplifier. rf amplifiers are very simple, and don't have any circuitry to mess up. I have know proof if he acctully did it or not, but I thought it would be a good idea.

 

[ForceFed70]

actually cops do use it. you cant do this with any amplifier, you need the right frequency. he had a ham radio 80-10-meter amplifier, which is much different from your regular rf amplifier. rf amplifiers are very simple, and don't have any circuitry to mess up. I have know proof if he acctully did it or not, but I thought it would be a good idea.

Cops don't use it. Believe me..

It doesn't matter what type of amplifier it is. Ham radio amplifiers ARE RF amplifiers. RF amplifiers simple? Have no circuitry? Explain to me what a "circuit" is then. I'm sorry, but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Frequency doesn't matter in this case. The only thing that would effect electronics like this would be a magnetic field. ONE CRAZY ASS changing magnetic field. A magnetic field so powerful that it would have to rip the car apart in the process.

Believe me.. no such thing exists. At least not something that you could fit in a car or power with any sort of automotice electrical system.

I spent 3 years in college studying electronics. The worst you can do with RF is cause interferance. And unless it's something that is prone to interferance (like something with an antenae) it's not going to do crap.

It would be a neat idea.. if it worked. Like I said.. the worst you'll do is set off a radar detector, or cause interferance if he's listening to the radio.

 

[Ronstang]

The only thing that would effect electronics like this would be a magnetic field. ONE CRAZY ASS changing magnetic field. A magnetic field so powerful that it would have to rip the car apart in the process.

It doesn't have to be stronge enough to rip the car apart. We were testing my buddy's 94 Cobra at the track one night and things got stalled so a top fuel dragster could make a run. We were idling the car in the staging lane right behind him and when he fired and revved the engine the Cobra died from the resulting EMP wave I assume...that is all it could have been, or something similar. It was truly amazing. He killed the engine on the dragster so we fired up the Cobra to see if it would do it again.....and when the dragster hit the starter....the Cobra died again. It was cool.

 

[Paul619]

is it time to call mythbusters?

 

[ForceFed70]

It doesn't have to be stronge enough to rip the car apart. We were testing my buddy's 94 Cobra at the track one night and things got stalled so a top fuel dragster could make a run. We were idling the car in the staging lane right behind him and when he fired and revved the engine the Cobra died from the resulting EMP wave I assume...that is all it could have been, or something similar. It was truly amazing. He killed the engine on the dragster so we fired up the Cobra to see if it would do it again.....and when the dragster hit the starter....the Cobra died again. It was cool.

EMP pulse from a starter? Possible I guess, but this is more likely a fluke. It obviously doesn't effect all vehicles as the dragster itself was fine. Plus, the Cobra itself has a starter. And while it doesn't cause nearly the magnetic interferance a larger starter in a dragster would, it's also a heck of alot closer to the electronics in the car.

Could be vibration related as well. Flukes do happen.. Fuel Injected cars die just driving down the street. Computers crash while doing nothing...

The EM interfecance coming from high voltage power lines is way stronger than any starter would produce... but you don't see car's mysteriously dying as they drive underneath...

 

[crazynorwegian]

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Personnel can also use the High Power Microwave (HPM) weapon (having similar effect as the EMP [electromagnetic pulse] weapon) to temporarily disable the car's engine and cause a car accident. Why? A car's brake system includes the foot brake (brake pedal) and emergency brake (hand pull brake).* However, the foot brake not only controls the wheel brakes, but it also controls the engine brake.* Thus, when a driver is driving at a high speed, he can just step on the brake pedal to control the engine brake then slow down his car without any problem.* However, when HPM weapon is used to attack a car, this attack will cause the car's engine to suddenly stop running and render the engine brakes useless. Thus, the unaware driver will have a car accident if he is driving at a high speed (or is only keeping a short distance behind another car) because his engine brake is out and he cannot stop the car at a high speed.* Also, although the HPM weapon can disable a car's engine brake, it leaves no signs of attack on a car's brake system because the HPM weapon will not damage any parts of the brakes system.

Based on following information from Red Cross, the High power microwave (HPM) weapon can be used as EMP weapon and is controllable.* According to an international Red Cross document, this HPM weapon can be used as EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse weapon) "which give an operator the ability to wipe out electronic circuits. The main difference is that new technology on HPM is controllable and can be used without violation nuclear weapons treaties."

"When microwaves being pulsed between 10-100 pulses per second, "A HPM (High Power Microwave) weapon employs a high power, rapidly pulsation microwave beam that penetrates electronic components. The pulse action internally excites the components, rapidly generating intense heat which causes them to fuse or melt, thus destroying the circuit .. HPM weapon attack at the speed-of-light thus making avoidance of beam impossible, consequently negating the advantage of weapon systems such as high velocity tactical missiles." (see details on EARTH RISING - THE REVOLUTION by Dr. Nick Begich & James Roderick, 2000).

Why is the EMP/HPM weapon's function?
According to NIJ's report on the function of EMP (ElectroMagnetic Pulse) weapon, it can "short-circuits" a vehicle, knocking the motor out, but leaving the brakes and steering operative.

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I know I dont know much about electronics, it not my profession. but I know this is possible. it works much like the weapon above, just lower power. it just causes the points on the circuit board to act like mini antennas.

 

[ForceFed70]

is it time to call mythbusters?

Yup!

I'd do it myself, if I wasn't certain it was false already. Seriously.. if it worked even some of the time, every Law Enforcement vehicle would have one.

 

[ForceFed70]

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Personnel can also use the High Power Microwave (HPM) weapon (having similar effect as the EMP [electromagnetic pulse] weapon) to temporarily disable the car's engine and cause a car accident. Why? A car's brake system includes the foot brake (brake pedal) and emergency brake (hand pull brake).* However, the foot brake not only controls the wheel brakes, but it also controls the engine brake.* Thus, when a driver is driving at a high speed, he can just step on the brake pedal to control the engine brake then slow down his car without any problem.* However, when HPM weapon is used to attack a car, this attack will cause the car's engine to suddenly stop running and render the engine brakes useless. Thus, the unaware driver will have a car accident if he is driving at a high speed (or is only keeping a short distance behind another car) because his engine brake is out and he cannot stop the car at a high speed.* Also, although the HPM weapon can disable a car's engine brake, it leaves no signs of attack on a car's brake system because the HPM weapon will not damage any parts of the brakes system.

Based on following information from Red Cross, the High power microwave (HPM) weapon can be used as EMP weapon and is controllable.* According to an international Red Cross document, this HPM weapon can be used as EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse weapon) "which give an operator the ability to wipe out electronic circuits. The main difference is that new technology on HPM is controllable and can be used without violation nuclear weapons treaties."

"When microwaves being pulsed between 10-100 pulses per second, "A HPM (High Power Microwave) weapon employs a high power, rapidly pulsation microwave beam that penetrates electronic components. The pulse action internally excites the components, rapidly generating intense heat which causes them to fuse or melt, thus destroying the circuit .. HPM weapon attack at the speed-of-light thus making avoidance of beam impossible, consequently negating the advantage of weapon systems such as high velocity tactical missiles." (see details on EARTH RISING - THE REVOLUTION by Dr. Nick Begich & James Roderick, 2000).

Why is the EMP/HPM weapon's function?
According to NIJ's report on the function of EMP (ElectroMagnetic Pulse) weapon, it can "short-circuits" a vehicle, knocking the motor out, but leaving the brakes and steering operative.

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I know I dont know much about electronics, it not my profession. but I know this is possible. it works much like the weapon above, just lower power. it just causes the points on the circuit board to act like mini antennas.

Where the heck did you get this piece of sci-fi from?

I'm sorry, but this article is laughable. Since when is the Red Cross an expert on weaponry? And what the hell are they talking about when they mention engine brake? Since when do you need an "engine brake" to stop a vehicle? You may loose your power assist... but that ain't no "engine brake" But even if you believe this wacked out article.. they arn't using no RF amplifier.

 

[zookeeper]

I agree, this is a case of an urban legend being backed up by bogus information. My thinking is: don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see...

 

[Ronstang]

EMP pulse from a starter? Possible I guess, but this is more likely a fluke. It obviously doesn't effect all vehicles as the dragster itself was fine. Plus, the Cobra itself has a starter. And while it doesn't cause nearly the magnetic interferance a larger starter in a dragster would, it's also a heck of alot closer to the electronics in the car.

Could be vibration related as well. Flukes do happen.. Fuel Injected cars die just driving down the street. Computers crash while doing nothing...

The EM interfecance coming from high voltage power lines is way stronger than any starter would produce... but you don't see car's mysteriously dying as they drive underneath...

I'm not talking about the starter. It has something to do with the nitormethane engine or the huge magnetos that were sticking out of th top of the engine. The roar of that engine was undescribable, it was quick and sharp and I felt a very small shockwave or simply moving air but I could feel it as much as hear it. I can't explain what happened scientifically I am just relaying my experience....and it happened twice so it is no fluke. We were extremely close to the rear of this dragster. It was so loud when he revved the engine I couldn't hear the Cobra die immediatley. My buddy nudged me and pointed at the tach and then yelled something about the EMP affect in my ear. When the dragster cut off we discussed it and then started the car to see if it would do it again....and it did.

 

[zookeeper]

Oddly enough, I just got a call from my brother, he says it's utter gridlock around one of the local radio stations. Cars are stalled everywhere, due to the RF signal. Sorry I couldn't resist...

 

[zookeeper]

I'm not talking about the starter. It has something to do with the nitormethane engine or the huge magnetos that were sticking out of th top of the engine. The roar of that engine was undescribable, it was quick and sharp and I felt a very small shockwave or simply moving air but I could feel it as much as hear it. I can't explain what happened scientifically I am just relaying my experience....and it happened twice so it is no fluke. We were extremely close to the rear of this dragster. It was so loud when he revved the engine I couldn't hear the Cobra die immediatley. My buddy nudged me and pointed at the tach and then yelled something about the EMP affect in my ear. When the dragster cut off we discussed it and then started the car to see if it would do it again....and it did.

If that's the case, why don't top fuel cars shut one another off? They run data aquisiton-computers and the twin 44 amp mags don't seem to affect them. I've videotaped lots of nitro cars both up close in the pits and on the strip and have never even gotten a fuzzy picture, let alone static or a non-functioning camera. BTW, how close were you to the dragster? I've never seen them do anything but idle the car into the water then do a barely-above-an-idle burnout. I've never seen anyone simply sit at the line and whack the throttle.

 

[krash kendall]

Actually, I have seen this type of thing used by law enforcement. However, it involved a large mat being laid out in front of the car in advance much like a spike belt. I believe the car could be restarted when it rolled off the mat, but it was completely a "look what we're working on" technology and was very impractical. Future uses may have included installing these in intersections to be activated in the event of a chase, but making all the lights turn red is a lot easier.

As for the dragster induced EMP-

Could the sudden rush of spent gasses being spewed out that say you even felt have simply robbed the intake system of the cobra of sufficient useable air?

 

[2nd Mustang]

I remember seeing something on the news about a remote controlled robotic thing that could be manueverd under a fleeing car and it would disable the electronics of the car being chased.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1169529/posts

 

[Ronstang]

If that's the case, why don't top fuel cars shut one another off? They run data aquisiton-computers and the twin 44 amp mags don't seem to affect them. I've videotaped lots of nitro cars both up close in the pits and on the strip and have never even gotten a fuzzy picture, let alone static or a non-functioning camera. BTW, how close were you to the dragster? I've never seen them do anything but idle the car into the water then do a barely-above-an-idle burnout. I've never seen anyone simply sit at the line and whack the throttle.

Nitro cars run magnetos so they would not suffer the same problem with their ignition I suppose. I don't claim to know the mechanism by which this phenomenon took place but it didn't affect all the electronics from what I saw, it simply interrupted the ignintion long enough for the car to die. It could be that the hall sensor was affected or maybe the coil...I DON"T KNOW. I'm not claiming to possess some great knowledge the rest of you don't, I am merely relaying an experience I had personally.....and it happened TWICE. We were directly behind him in the staging lane. I could have been clearer about the firing and the revving of the engine. I now remember that it wasn't the starting of the engine that had the effect, it was when he did the burnout. It was a quick rap of the throttle but it was very violent standing right behind it and he hit some pretty high revs. It was a top fuel funny car IIRC not the rail dragster people picture when you say "dragster" so that might have been a little misleading. They shut the track down for his run for safety. I don't know if it would happen again as I doubt I will ever get in the same position again but there definitely was some REAL forde acting on the Cobra. My buddy even told me that both times the car just sropped like he turned off the key....but the lights and all still worked. He said something about EMP causing the condition and since I have no intense knowledge on the subject I didn't disagree with him. Like I already stated, I do not know what happened and by what mechanism it happened but the quick violent throttle rap of that car killed the Cobra's ignition long enough for it to die twice.

 

[crazynorwegian]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1169529/posts

thankyou 2nd mustang, all the information you need can be found at that site

the reason why this doesn't happen by a radio station is because not only is the antenna 100 feet up a tower, but it is shielded correctly. His radio is completely unshielded, and he also had to be right next to the car in order for it to work.

btw I asked the amateur radio guys on http://www.hamforum.com and this is the response I got.
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Yes, it's entirely possible. Given a poorly shielded computer and a transmitter with a bad case of spectral impurity (like most mobile CB installations, complete with amplifier), and you have a rolling interference platform.

Sad thing is, many such operators are unaware of how much interference they cause. Sadder still is that those who DO know what they're doing to others trying to communicate are actually PROUD that they can be heard, and sometimes even UNDERSTOOD, fifty kilohertz or more away from the carrier.
http://www.hamforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2517&sid=6ac6c1b74a188a56ad202977d6402e66
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[DarkBuddha]

I don't know much about electronics or amplifiers, but I've been involved with audio research and production for a while, and the one thing that is an issue in studios is shielding for cables and speakers. Based on that alone, I would fully expect that all car manufacturers make sure their vehicle control computers are well shielded, thus making the HAM radio amplifier story unlikely (though not impossible).

With regard to the Cobra shutting down, I think this may be more related to SPLs (sound pressure levels) rather than some EMP effect. You mention the sound of the nitro car was "undescribable". Again, based on what I know from my experience with audio research, I know SPLs can have significant physical effects. I suspect in the case of the Cobra, the SPL created an unusual pulse in the intake tract (probably briefly creating a vacuum), which caused the motor to die. I'm assuming that the Cobra was in some close proximity to the nitro car and probably in direct line to the exhaust... My point is that it probably wasn't electrical, but rather air flow related.