Progress Thread My Kenne Bell Twin Screw'd Foxbody thread, (new addition to the family)
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I'm at work right now so I can't check it till later this evening when I get home. I'm really distracted from work today with this damn no spark issue. I called an auto repair shop today and gave him the skinny on my situation. His reply was "that doesn't sound like fun", I asked "you don't like a challenge? you only take the easy work?" He replied after a short silence, "bring it on by I'm sure we can figure it out". To me that doesn't sound like gung ho spirit that's up for a challenge that I'm looking for when handing over my car and hard earned cash.
I know you've put a lot of time into reading up on the system. Im still thinking it's something simple. Has Shannon had any input yet? I ordered it for a stock 5.0.
Shannon and Wes think it's weird that I have tach input while cranking (reads 300-400 rpm) while having no spark. @jrichker ?
I am guilty of skipping around the cranks okay/no start check list as I was going for the obvious ones that I thought would apply to me but today I will dig in to it in order as well as I can without having a noid light test kit and without a helper.
I am guilty of skipping around the cranks okay/no start check list as I was going for the obvious ones that I thought would apply to me but today I will dig in to it in order as well as I can without having a noid light test kit and without a helper.
Any chance of removing the PiMP and installing the stock ECM while troubleshooting? I think it could de-complicate the situation for the time being.
It would take some work but might be worth a try down the line. I'd need to switch ECU, remove my 30lb injectors and install my 19# with matched pro-m MAF, my MAP, old intake pipe and make a go at it. It should actually run OK without the EGR, right?
Will run fine with no egr
Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate
The poor man's noid light can be found at Radio Shack (some of the larger stores are still open).
See Sites-radioshack-Site to find one near you.
Part number
12 volt red led Model: 276-270(A) Catalog #: 2760270, $2.49 each. Stuff the red wire on the led in the side of the harness socket that has the red wire. The black wire goes to the other side of the injector harness.
PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.
See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.
See Sites-radioshack-Site to find one near you.
Part number
12 volt red led Model: 276-270(A) Catalog #: 2760270, $2.49 each. Stuff the red wire on the led in the side of the harness socket that has the red wire. The black wire goes to the other side of the injector harness.
PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.
See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.
What if I did it the lazy way and left my 30# inj in and added everything else? Should start up and just run like crap right? I'd like to problem solve without removing the intake.
Exactly, I just want to see it start up for problem solving purposes. Think I might make a go at it this weekend.Running poorly means you have more spark than what you had before
Stinger just suggested this as well. I guess I could also only switch the ECU and check for spark and go from there.
@jrichker
1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the high voltage coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.
No spark. I however noticed after lots of poking around that my 's' wire at the starter solenoid is actually red/green. I have no red/blue wire in the area. There is one at the TFI and at my steering column but not near my solenoid. Regardless I still have some test results, see below.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped None
B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking. No noid light but I heard if you have tach input while cranking then that's a sign of a good working PIP sensor. right?
C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch. Light flashes
D.) Coil I have purchases two new coils now, no spark
E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. I have 12 volts
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires. I have 12 volts
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown. I have 12 volts at both the ignition and coil.
Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp fuse
H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery. Present and good condition
In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
I.) Computer. Used PiMP and good working A9L and no dice. When I hooked up the A9L my CEL came on, should I run codes?
J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges. I have a 4ga coming from timing cover to clean shiny spot on engine apron.
K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.
I am completely stumped but I will follow up with another post with some other concerns shortly.
1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the high voltage coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.
No spark. I however noticed after lots of poking around that my 's' wire at the starter solenoid is actually red/green. I have no red/blue wire in the area. There is one at the TFI and at my steering column but not near my solenoid. Regardless I still have some test results, see below.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped None
B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking. No noid light but I heard if you have tach input while cranking then that's a sign of a good working PIP sensor. right?
C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch. Light flashes
D.) Coil I have purchases two new coils now, no spark
E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. I have 12 volts
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires. I have 12 volts
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown. I have 12 volts at both the ignition and coil.
Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp fuse
H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery. Present and good condition
In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
I.) Computer. Used PiMP and good working A9L and no dice. When I hooked up the A9L my CEL came on, should I run codes?
J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges. I have a 4ga coming from timing cover to clean shiny spot on engine apron.
K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.
I am completely stumped but I will follow up with another post with some other concerns shortly.
I have some connectors that go no where and would like opinions on my fuse box.
First up, located near trans tunnel under dash.
wire colors green/yellow and 2 black/white
Picture below, are these for stereo/audio?
Orang'ish colored plug below, gray/yellow, black/yellow, pink/light blue, black/yellow, black, orange/blue, orange/black & yellow/red
Last connect is orange/green and light blue/white. It's in the drivers side kick panel.
First up, located near trans tunnel under dash.
wire colors green/yellow and 2 black/white
Picture below, are these for stereo/audio?
Orang'ish colored plug below, gray/yellow, black/yellow, pink/light blue, black/yellow, black, orange/blue, orange/black & yellow/red
Last connect is orange/green and light blue/white. It's in the drivers side kick panel.
The tach is driven off the TFI. and requires a lower voltage to trigger it than the ignition does. That' the purpose of the noid light, even the poor man's LED version will do. If it flashes there is enough PIP pulse voltage to make the TFI fire the coil and the computer to fire the injectors.
Remove the SPOUT and see if you get spark.
PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.
See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.
So I have new news. I got a noid light test kit and the noid lit up as I cranked the engine. I cut the boot off an old coil wire and cranked again and I got spark! Really weak arc but at least its something.
@jrichker what's your thoughts? Right now I'm going to redo my grounds. I have my battery negative to trunk floor so I'm moving it to the quad shock mount and see if that helps any.
@jrichker what's your thoughts? Right now I'm going to redo my grounds. I have my battery negative to trunk floor so I'm moving it to the quad shock mount and see if that helps any.
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