Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

[CarMichael Angelo]

Ok, I'm calm now.

Here's the problem. It's not just the head gasket, it's the head itself.

Here is a 300.00 dollar MLS HG for my engine. At the top of the pic is the area where my leaking is occurring. I can have this HG built for me and modified to suit my specific engine (all the little holes on the bottom aren't necessary, and there needs to be a hole added above cyl #1,3, and 6 for a water passage into the head.

This is the stock Felpro version of what my stupid 250 looked like (on the bottom) and the Aussie Felpro for the Crossflow 4.1L that I used as a template to build my JB Weld-a-block.

The problem is that the lifter galley has no bolts to tighten that outside sealing edge down to the deck surface. I smeared Hondabond all along that outside perimeter, and everywhere else you see a red ring on the upper gasket. But I still have a leak.

Now I've already contacted that Chinese MFG of the MLS gasket, and a guy w/ an American name has already responded back letting me know that they can build it. (I've since asked for references, and credentials) The problem w/ the MLS gasket, is that no additional sealers can be added (according to the install instructions he linked) and these engines (not just mine) are notorious lor leaking there even w/ a composite gasket. So even w/ the MLS gasket, I may have a leak.

I'm gonna be tearing up the phone tomorrow.

 

[95BlueStallion]

No Aussies on the interweb with proven engine builds have any advice on a proven solution?

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

No Aussies on the interweb with proven engine builds have any advice on a proven solution?

There aren't that many of them (the engines) left. (Think using a 1980 head on a late 70's block) What ever they did w/ that engine was mostly before things w/ the nickname "power adder" forced the need for a better than stock HG. I'd imagine in any other case where a better one was needed, a copper HG was used.
Anybody, and everybody that makes head gaskets, makes a copper head gasket, so I'm sure that was the go to.

A google search on "sealing a copper head gasket" brings a dozen different solutions, w/ most professing that their solution was the one that worked. All I know is that I ain't gonna do this again, so I'm real leary about re-using this copper head gasket after applying one of those "fixes" that didn't fix it.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Isn't it funny when as a result of either catastrophic failure, defect, or ignorance on the part of the installer, after having to go through the effort involved, and the time to tear the stuff apart, you are some how happy that you found broken, or screwed up junk?

Such was the case this afternoon.

I was telling the wife about the dilemma. No, scratch that.

I was Bitching to the wife about the leaking piece of junk head gasket, and told her that i was gonna wait to tear it down till after I spoke w/ SCE tomorrow to see what he tells me. The wife asks real matter of factly....."Why?"
"Why what?" I responded. "Why are you waiting,...Aren't you gonna have to tear it down anyway?" She asks.

"Well,...yeah, I was just waiting till I got my mind around it." I replied.

She says "Sounds pretty stupid if you ask me, how is it gonna be any different once you "get your mind around it?""

I went down into the garage.

I started on it at 5, I was done w/ it by 6:30. (Stuff always comes apart way faster than it goes together)

Oil everywhere.

The bluish stuff is Hondabond. Looking at the pic shows that Mike screwed up. He didn't think to seal the inside of the lifter galley. (But then again I figured that oil would find its way back into the engine on the inside) The oil that is all over the opposite side is the oil that drained down the head stud boss on that side. Alot of it managed to find it's way between the gasket everywhere.

I'll take credit for that, what I want to know is how then did it get outside? That bead of Hondabond was on both the head surface, and the deck on the outside

Because there isn't any O-ring set into the block, or a receiver groove cut into the head, I bought a special gasket from SCE that has a wire ring sandwiched between the layers of copper, You might be able to see where that O-ring "printed" the head.

Know what I'm thinkin' though? I'm thinkin' that O ring held the head off the deck far enough to not allow the sealant to do it's intended job. Either that, or the thin, "skim coat" layer of Hondabond wasn't thick enough.

Oil is everywhere though, It was just as wet under this gasket as it was on top. I don't know what to think.

The problem w/ the Hondabond, is that it dries in a minute. By the time you get the deck coated, it's already dry where you started. Do the head, and by the time you're ready to set it, it's all dry. I'm thinkin' I want something that stays tacky for at least long enough to get it assembled. In retrospect, I'm thinkin' I don't want to have to put any sealer on the damn head gasket at all. I looked at the MLS gasket that I can have built. I'm concerned that where they'll have to add holes for water passages into the head, there won't be any provisions for sealing, like the embossed ridge you see on the outside edges.

Potential leaks if you ask me.

I did take a pic of the -12 that feeds my oil pump. I'm thinkin' I'm screwed w/ that set up. My only hope is that right now w/ 6 qts of oil in there, and the oil still isn't touching the top of that kick out, Maybe if I add another qt, it'll force oil up and out based on gravity...

 

[jetmech807]

A trick I was shown with 1300L weatherstrip adhesive is brush it on and let it dry, which happens pretty fast. Just before you want to stick the part, take a rag dampened with tolulene or naptha and wipe it across the adhesive just enough make it damp/tacky again. Then stick the part. If it works like 1300L, it may never come apart. I know nothing about hondabond so have no idea if this will work, but something to think about.

 

[jrichker]

An old trick with dry oil pumps was to pack them full with Vaseline to get them to prime. It fills the gaps just enough so that the pump will pull a vacuum. Ideally, the external oil pump is mounted below the oil level in the pan.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Thanks you guys, I appreciate the input.

Today I learned some stuff:

#1. I learned about hydraulic fluid dynamics. ( Actually, I learned that the pump will be a totally different beast, once it has oil, as opposed to air inside the gear drive). I called the owner of Aviaid and he had no problem w/ the fact that oil has to rise a full 7", then travel 22" over to the pump...........Once it has oil in the pump.
For the first time in order to make that happen, I'm gonna have to be a little unorthodox in my approach, and "back fill" the pump from the outlet side to fully purge the air out of the pump, and the feed line. Once that is done, I should be good.

So, good news on issue #1.

On #2, The story is a little different there. Through a combination of installer error, and maybe a little more liberal approach to properly coating the head gasket,....I'm gonna give that P.O.S. another chance.

The oil all over the deck, and head probably came as a result of two things:

#1. That fire ring that seals the chamber is stainless steel. It takes 75-80 ft lbs to fully seat the thing, PLUS a heat cycle of the engine, PLUS a re-torque of the head studs after that.
When I filled the engine w/ oil, the head gasket was only in "stage 1" of the torque sequence, and was only at 30 pounds. The guy at SCE guesstimated that the fire ring hadn't seated at that setting, and the rest of the gasket was still standing proud of the deck surface. Oil would be free to run everywhere if that was the case.

Plausible.

#2. When I backed out the head studs, and oil in the stud boss would've ran everywher after the fact given that the head was completely loose at that stage.

Likely.

#3. I didn't coat the surfaces adequately w/ that stupid assed Hondabond.

Absolutely.

So here's the plan: The engine is tore down to the stage that if I HAD to, I can remove the head fairly easy if that piece of crap doesn't do right this time around. I'm gonna coat the entire HG w/ Copper coat (twice) and use the Hondabond around every suspected drain hole and water passage. and I'm gonna put that sorry bastard back together. Then I'm gonna torque that head correctly, and completely before I add qt's #7 and 8 to the pan.

If it leaks, the noise you'll hear coming outta that garage........................well,....lets just say it won't be pretty.

 

[Husky44]

Mike, you impress me with everything you do... but the fact that you related the story to the whole interweb that your wife was right totally astounds me.

Keep trailblazing, good sir!

 

[Boosted92LX]

An old trick with dry oil pumps was to pack them full with Vaseline to get them to prime. It fills the gaps just enough so that the pump will pull a vacuum. Ideally, the external oil pump is mounted below the oil level in the pan.

^^^ Done it. Works well.

 

[Boosted92LX]

@madmike1157

Mike, I work on a lot of general purpose steam turbines in the refinery that employs me. Some of them use an external oil pump on the outboard end of the turbine shaft with an oil sump 24-30 inches below it. A trick we use to maintain prime is to install a very lightly sprung check valve in the suction line to hold oil in the line. We can always tell when the check is bad, as the pump won't keep prime. Don't know if this can be applied to your setup, but may be worth looking into?

 

[Noobz347]

Hey Mike... When you get the chance, send me your wife's email. I'll help her with better questions to ask like...

Isn't this Aussie motor going to spin the wrong direction or did you just install it backward?
How come you didn't just use a 5oh like in a Mustang?
Do you want to try my glue? It works on everything.
Isn't a crate motor just a couple hundred bucks?
No wonder. Why are you using Honda glue instead of Ford glue?
Where are you putting the cup holders?
Do 5oh motors seal when you put nice gaskets on them?
Do you still have to use Honda glue? You should splurge and get some Ford glue.
Don't they make 351s?
What kind of glue to they take?

 

[95BlueStallion]

THIS IS GREAT!!! ^

 

[mikestang63]

Mike, wondering if right stuff would work better than the Honda bond? It offers a longer setup time and seals like a cat's ass.

 

[Noobz347]

Mike, wondering if right stuff would work better than the Honda bond? It offers a longer setup time and seals like a cat's ass.

The same thought had crossed my mind but I don't think that they are even in the same family of sealants.

If (big if) the Honda stuff that he's talking about is the same stuff that I remember, it dries/cures to something that resembles a ceramic.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Hey Mike... When you get the chance, send me your wife's email. I'll help her with better questions to ask like...

Isn't this Aussie motor going to spin the wrong direction or did you just install it backward?
How come you didn't just use a 5oh like in a Mustang?
Do you want to try my glue? It works on everything.
Isn't a crate motor just a couple hundred bucks?
No wonder. Why are you using Honda glue instead of Ford glue?
Where are you putting the cup holders?
Do 5oh motors seal when you put nice gaskets on them?
Do you still have to use Honda glue? You should splurge and get some Ford glue.
Don't they make 351s?
What kind of glue to they take?

You're a funny guy. Ever seen Good Fellas?

She'll glaze over on the second question. They make little finger tips so people can measure how much she cares, or cares to know about a car. The conversations we have about my trials and tribulations in the garage have to be carefully "ordered" so I can keep her interested long enough to even understand the problem, or victory for that given day.

@madmike1157

Mike, I work on a lot of general purpose steam turbines in the refinery that employs me. Some of them use an external oil pump on the outboard end of the turbine shaft with an oil sump 24-30 inches below it. A trick we use to maintain prime is to install a very lightly sprung check valve in the suction line to hold oil in the line. We can always tell when the check is bad, as the pump won't keep prime. Don't know if this can be applied to your setup, but may be worth looking into?

According to dude, Once the gears are wet, the pump will make enough suction to re-prime itself.

Nice blue banner BTW, Congratulations on now being an official know it all.

THIS IS GREAT!!! ^

Laugh it up Fuzzball.

Mike, wondering if right stuff would work better than the Honda bond? It offers a longer setup time and seals like a cat's ass.

The same thought had crossed my mind but I don't think that they are even in the same family of sealants.

If (big if) the Honda stuff that he's talking about is the same stuff that I remember, it dries/cures to something that resembles a ceramic.

I'm thinkin' the Hondabond is out. When I stopped at Advance to buy the coppercoat for the HG, I also bought a tube of the high temp copper RTV for the turbo manifold to head gasket.

I have been reading that the Hondabond doesn't work for alot of guys that are using it (as it's supposed to be used), and the have switched to either Ultra-grey, or some other color RTV to get the job done.
Honda bond dries to a hard rubber consistency, as opposed to RTV which is obviously more "spongy". I guess the thinking is that the harder rubber consistency will be less likely to "push" when compressed, or when the head moves around as a result of heat/cold.

The problem w/ the Hbond, is that it dries so quickly, you cant get it applied to all of the surfaces you need to and it still be "wet" enough to do the job IMO.

I have coated the HG w/ 3 coats of coppercoat, and I'm letting that dry overnight. I don't know whether it's gonna be black, grey, copper, or blue-grey, but I gotta decide what I want to put on the deck and head to seal this thing by tomorrow, cause I'm puttin that b itch back together.

 

[Boosted92LX]

Nice blue banner BTW, Congratulations on now being an official know it all.

My suspicion is confirmed. I wondered how the heck that happened... lol.

Thanks Mike.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

My suspicion is confirmed. I wondered how the heck that happened... lol.

Thanks Mike.

I can't take that much credit, there were several who participated in that decision. I just threw your name in the hat. You and @mikestang63 deserve the elevated status. Even the casual observer can see that you both offer more than your share of helping hands when it comes to helping the guys sort out their problems.

 

[Boosted92LX]

I can't take that much credit, there were several who participated in that decision. I just threw your name in the hat. You and @mikestang63 deserve the elevated status. Even the casual observer can see that you both offer more than your share of helping hands when it comes to helping the guys sort out their problems.

I do what I can. I appreciate all the guys on this site that have helped me.. Only right to give something back. Thanks again. To all involved.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Mike, you impress me with everything you do... but the fact that you related the story to the whole interweb that your wife was right totally astounds me.

Keep trailblazing, good sir!

Hey, what can I say, I am a lucky guy when it comes to her. I got no problem calling a spade a spade. Still smokin' hot after 30 years w/ a brain for business, and the likeable personality of Snow white. Who else on EARTH would I have been able to find that lets me send her a birthday/Christmas wish list directly from Summit?

 

[TOOLOW91]

As weird as it may seem i was thinking about your problem at work and came in here to tell you to try copper spray on the HG only to read you did just that. Staying tuned Mike i hope it all comes to together and runs like a raped ape!