Vortech Says This In Regards To Intercoolers/after. Do Y'all Concur?

[90lxwhite]

Why don't Vortech superchargers need an Aftercooler or an intercooler?
Vortech Engineering, LLC has conducted extensive testing of most intercoolers/aftercoolers currently on the market. Test results indicate that for street driven purposes below 8-9 PSIG, installing an aftercooler has marginal effects when using a Vortech supercharger (due to the high efficiency of the supercharger). Nearly all of the intercoolers/aftercoolers available on the market have poor effectiveness and actually can cause parasitic losses equal to or greater than the power gained by installing a intercooler/aftercooler. Vortech has developed systems which are substantially more effective at lowering discharge temperatures without causing driveability problems and pressure drops thru the cooling core and ducting.

 

[smkshw]

that would be nice if it was true,will save me some cash,im not going to run more that 9psi

 

[FastDriver]

I believe that they know what they're talking about. Yet, I would rather lose a few ponies and keep the charge temp cooler to prevent detonation. There are "systems which are substatially more effective at lowering discharge temperatures without causing driveability problems and pressure drops." However, I think they are probably referring to an injection system, and I'd prefer an intercooler that never runs out of juice. It's all interesting stuff to me, though. I'd like to know more.

 

[Chuckman]

There are "systems which are substatially more effective at lowering discharge temperatures without causing driveability problems and pressure drops." However, I think they are probably referring to an injection system, and I'd prefer an intercooler that never runs out of juice. It's all interesting stuff to me, though. I'd like to know more.

actually, this is probably in reference to their air-water coolers, which uses far less intake plumbing (basically just replaces the charge pipe) than the air-air procharger stuff. whether one is better over another? dunno, i just know that typical intercooled o.e. roots-types use the air-water coolers, and turbos tend to use the air-air (presumably for packaging reasons for the most par).

 

[90lxwhite]

Yeah the sell a Maxflow cooler or whatever, - $2k. I'll pass.
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/page.php?id=30019

 

[mikestang63]

I agree with them. For lower hp models, the cost doesn't justify it. You are only making 50-75hp. When you start talking renegade kits then intercooling makes sense. For the money, you would be better off installing a Snow Meth system.

 

[90lxwhite]

I agree with them. For lower hp models, the cost doesn't justify it. You are only making 50-75hp. When you start talking renegade kits then intercooling makes sense. For the money, you would be better off installing a Snow Meth system.

How long does the meth last?

 

[revhead347]

Vortech has been pushing this for over a decade. The reality is that the THEIR water to air intercooler doesn't do anything. Vortech used to be king of the market with only Paxton putting any real pressure on them. Then ATI introduced their ProCharger line for the Mustang. Initially they didn't sell very well because the head units had a nasty habit of blowing chunks into the engine. ProCharger eventually improved the quality of the head unit. Every kit came with an intercooler already designed it. Vortech has been running the same setups for 20 years. Instead of redesigning them all to include an air to air intercooler, they designed a half ass air to water to air cooler that would fit into their current kits. It didn't really do anything because it was over complicated and too small. Then they started a campaign of talking down the intercooler as a concept. ProCharger setups continued to yield better performance over all, and Vortech continued to lose market share. What they refer to as "parasitic loss" is actually just a low of physics. Pressure x Volume / Temperature is constant in a closed system. If you cool down the air charge, the pressure is going to drop. You are still getting the same volume of air, just at a lower pressure and temperature which is more friendly to the engine. Vortech still builds some of the best quality head units available, and I find it unfortunate that they have used a scandalous business tactic to undermine the competition instead of just promoting the quality of their product.

Kurt

 

[85rkyboby]

How long does the meth last?

Here's some reading for ya regarding Snow Performance Meth Setup... http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_type.php?type=gasoline

I have been referred to use Alky Control's setup instead. I kind of put Meth on the back burner for now. Here's some faqs on there setup.
http://www.alkycontrol.com/faq/acfaqs.html#!faqs/c1xjo
http://www.alkycontrol.com/faq/acfaqs.html#!faqs-2/c1blc

 

[revhead347]

You can run certain types of window washer fluid in those meth setups and it works the same. Window Washer fluid is cheap.

Kurt

 

[FastDriver]

Vortech has been pushing this for over a decade. The reality is that the THEIR water to air intercooler doesn't do anything. Vortech used to be king of the market with only Paxton putting any real pressure on them. Then ATI introduced their ProCharger line for the Mustang. Initially they didn't sell very well because the head units had a nasty habit of blowing chunks into the engine. ProCharger eventually improved the quality of the head unit. Every kit came with an intercooler already designed it. Vortech has been running the same setups for 20 years. Instead of redesigning them all to include an air to air intercooler, they designed a half ass air to water to air cooler that would fit into their current kits. It didn't really do anything because it was over complicated and too small. Then they started a campaign of talking down the intercooler as a concept. ProCharger setups continued to yield better performance over all, and Vortech continued to lose market share. What they refer to as "parasitic loss" is actually just a low of physics. Pressure x Volume / Temperature is constant in a closed system. If you cool down the air charge, the pressure is going to drop. You are still getting the same volume of air, just at a lower pressure and temperature which is more friendly to the engine. Vortech still builds some of the best quality head units available, and I find it unfortunate that they have used a scandalous business tactic to undermine the competition instead of just promoting the quality of their product.

Kurt

Excellent replies, Kurt. Thanks for the schooling!

 

[2000xp8]

For the average guy the aftercooler setups are pointless with a vortech.
Block only supports 500rwhp (or less), An S trim gets there efficiently enough, so it's a whole lot of money wasted.

Now i have seen it on a vortech street car that made 750rwhp. Never asked the guys how and if it worked and whether it was done before or after the tuning (DFI). I will though.

 

[90lxwhite]

Just an FYI for those who might be wondering the snow performance faq says a tank of meth or whatever will last about a tank of gas.

 

[Onefine88]

I use an Anderson Ford Mr Freeze water/methanol injection kit on my vert. I also had one on my supercharged SSC.
I don't run washer cleaner, as the proper mix is hard to find around here. I run Snow Boost Juice. My tank holds 1/2 a gallon. It's settup to only spray water/meth while under boost. As boost pressure rises, so does the water/meth pressure.

People are always asking: What happens when the Boost Juice runs out? My reply: Same thing as if you run out of gas. Don't!

 

[revhead347]

Not sure I would run an S-trim to 500rwhp. Have to spin it pretty high, and it it generates a lot of heat. An intercooler does have a lot of value in my opinion. Now Vortech has to compete with the exploding turbocharger market. ProCharger has come out with these variable rate transmission driven blowers. I think that is a step too far, and the extra complication is not worth it.

Kurt

 

[FastDriver]

500 rwhp shouldn't be that bad, presuming an efficient compressor if you're already making 300 rwhp with a low compression ratio. So, premium heads/cam/intake and 9:1 CR + 8-10 psi from the right compressor should get you in the realm without any ill effects.

I guess I still like a turbo more for the application in order to keep the psi down and efficiency up. I'm afraid that the blowers mentioned would be out of their efficiency range. That's when an intercooler would be a nice safety net...

edit: This, to me, is still the model 500 rwhp (ish) combo for cheap, repeatable, affordable fun in a fox: http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/finally-got-my-turbo-retuned-dyno-numbers.840573/

 

[84Ttop]

I have personally seen back to back blower head unit testing and compressor efficiency plays a huge role in deciding for an intercooler. The Vortech stuff is hands down much more efficient and I would be more than willing to put up any of my head units for a back to back comparison to the competition. Like anything else, there are plenty of different ways to build a compressor and some work better than others. In my eyes, there is a reason that Vortech will glady give anyone without question a compressor map for any blower that they produce, that flat out doesn't happen from any competitor.
In regards to needing a intercooler or not, any restriction in the intake track will cause a greater resistance or back pressure and ultimately more load on the compressor. The higher the load the more heat that the compressor will generate. There is a trade off in both directions and that's the juggle that we need to look at. If you can build a compressor that is efficient enough from the start then you will find little to no gain in a cooler when you run the compressor within its designed efficiency range. While I agree that the Vortech after cooler is not the most efficient option, it does provide better results than a heat soaked air to air cooler. I can't see them redesigning a system that has worked so well for so long.
I think that the consideration should also be made as to the overall customer base that Vortech serves. APG or AirPowerGroup is a big name in the industrial and marine market. This is actually the biggest part of the company and where Vortech actually stems from, the motorsport market is a relatively small part of their operation. They are involved at a very high level internationally with their compressor technology and I can not say the same about any of their competitors... This to me lends itself towards better product development and really is the reason why their compressors are light years more efficient that others, experiance is what it comes down to really.

Am I biased? Sure am, I know what has worked really well for me and what has failed miserably. I base my opinions on those experiances

 

[FastDriver]

84, from an engineering standpoint, these are really Air-Water-Air inter/aftercoolers, right? I mean, these are not the racing Air-Water coolers that people put buckets of ice into, I'm assuming. Those are probably the most efficient designs out there, but they're also impractical for daily use.

This type of A-W-A cooler is used on the twin and roots blowers because there's no other practical way to get a heat exchanger in between the cylinder and the blower. Still, when the opportunity allows for A-A coolers to be used, conceptually I'd guess it would be the more efficient design. I'm not referring to anything in particular... just thinking conceptually out loud.

On another note, I know something I'm always very concerned with is detonation. Intake temperature is the primary way safeguard against detonation. So, even though something may make similar power numbers, my preference would be to do it with a more conservative tune and lower air temps.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Just an FYI for those who might be wondering the snow performance faq says a tank of meth or whatever will last about a tank of gas.

Buy a bigger tank. That shot glassed size reservoir that comes with Snow's standard kit probably wasn't designed for your average "gas'n'go".

Plenty of them out there. Bought a nice polymer tank for my Cougar's A/W that was just about exactly the same size as my battery and wen't perfectly in it's place. Had I been running water/meth instead, that baby would have gone for weeks.

 

[Bullitt347]

Air/water is far more efficient at removing heat from the air charge. A typical air/water intercooler has an efficiency ratio of 4:1 whereas a air/air intercooler has an efficiency ratio of only 1:1. This is why air/water intercooler are so much smaller than your air/air type.