which will be faster 07 shelby GT500, or 06 saleen SC, both stock.
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Ricks, apparently you are not very familiar with the new 05-06 saleens. Twin screw blower, runs on only 4-5lbs of boost and avg rear wheel horsepower has been at 390-410 at the rear wheels. Leave it in the dust? A 300 horsepower GT does a claimed 4.9 to 60, vs a claimed 4.5 to 60 with 500 horsepower. The new shelby apparently doesnt even leave a 300 horse GT in the dust to at least 60. Slap a saleen blower on the GT and it beats 4.5 to 60. I disagree with your opinion, especially since I have one. My car outran in the quarter mile my friends 460hp 2002 viper GTS, and both of our cars are stock. The car is no slouch.
SVTdriver
Founding Member
Ok so if your car has already beaten something close to the GT500. What was the point fo your question? I think you need to look at the GT500 "claimed times" The 03 cobra had a claimed time. Slower than many drivers I have known have gotten it to run.
rans00vert said:
O.K., where are these 390-410 bone-stock chassis dyno results?? Gotta scan???............
And 0-60 times for high-power Mustangs are purely traction-determined, it's a joke to compare 0-60 times on cars that you can't lay full-throttle on until you're well on your way through 2nd gear.
My '97 S351 has far more power than your newer Saleen, is a bit LIGHTER, and I'll wager I couldn't get that sucker to do 0-60 in under 5 seconds unless I mounted SLICKS to it. Nothing but wheelspin until 3rd gear, unless you feather the hell out of it, which means you're effectively not making full-use of available rear-wheel horsepower for the 1st couple gears due to traction. 0-60 doesn't mean diddly to that car, it's the kiddie slide at the water park. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if a new 05-06 GT beat my S351 to 60 mph, despite the 206 horsepower deficit. Of course, after 60, I'm coming past like a lear jet buzzing a crop duster...
Lastly, your friend with the Viper must drive like a donkey on quaaludes.
If you're so certain that you're car will take the new GT500, then scan the timeslip that you outran the Viper on, and show us all how you're running low-to-mid twelves at 116 mph or more....
Leave the 0-60 talk for the Honda V-tech and Mitsubishi Eclipse forum, 1/4 mile times are what tell the tale for high-powered cars.
0-60 means something if you drive on the street. Not everybody takes there mustangs to the track. My original question was what was your thoughts 0-60 and, I said 1/4 mile. I have seen dynos of saleens posted on various mustang sites. I do not have one to post. Does that mean I am BSing? No. Are you saying the new SC saleens do not have that kind of power? Evan Smith drove a 2005 SC saleen with 400hp to 12.5 at 115, in MM&FF last year. The new one is 435hp. It should do a little better. That is right in the ballpark with the "claimed" times of the GT500.
As far as my friend and his viper. He races SCCA in the viper, and is a very very good straight line driver.
As far as my friend and his viper. He races SCCA in the viper, and is a very very good straight line driver.
rans00vert said:
I know that in 1997, the S351 that Saleen gave to magazines for testing had an upgraded blower, and a completely different blower intake arrangement (better breathing, ran a huge elbow and hose through the inner apron), than production S351's. I know that because I saw the car. So excuse me if I'm skeptical when he gives a test car to the rags to run numbers with.
So I'll ask again, what did YOU (not Evan Smith) run in your Saleen, and what did your friend run in his Viper, 1/4 mile? Or did that happen on the street, and no time slip exists? On the street where also, your friend may have been battling tire-spin allowing you to get a lucky win against a stronger car, which means basically nothing other than he owes you a beer, and you better not fool with him from a 40 mph roll...
Can we be honest here? Let's face it, his Viper has more power, less weight, it's fairly academic.... Don't delude yourself into thinking you've got a Viper beater in a heavier, under-powered car, just because you beat him once, where MANY variables determine the outcome. Drag and street racing relies on alot of variables, and weaker cars take stronger cars every day due to gearing and traction and driving issues that can toss a conditional advantage to the lesser car in a certain situation. I've beaten PLENTY of faster cars than mine on the street. I used to kill my buddy's built and nitroused 11-second 5.0 in streetlight sprints with my '93 6-speed Corvette, only because he couldn't hook on street tires, and I could. That didn't cause me to go out and say that my Corvette should run 11's..., it just caused my buddy to say "damn, that thing hooks and goes!!", and we both knew who's car was truly dominant...
I'll be the first one to admit, that 0-60, my 506 horse S351 STINKS. Even with fresh 295 Michelin Pilots on the rear, it's nothing but two gears and a cloud of smoke getting it to 60, no matter what you do. Nissan 350Z could probably nose me to 60. The more power you have on street tires, the more issues you've got to meddle with to stay on the edge of traction. In a boosted car, it's almost impossible to modulate to optimal result. That's why, if you're on the street, and you've only got room enough to race somebody 0-60, well....... you don't have room to race. That's ricer racing, that's kid's stuff, that's not proving a damn thing other than you're good at wasting gas and rubber. It's like Michael Johnson and Carl Lewis racing from the restroom door to the only available stall. A joke.
Anything can beat anything on a given day, there's more to it than, "One day, at band camp, I beat a Viper..."
I put out a guess, and my guess is that the 500 horse GT500 will pull harder than the SC Saleen. I base my opinion on math, and my own experience with Saleen ownership. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But you've got to produce a time slip to make an argument. Otherwise, it's just sabre rattling.
SVTdriver
Founding Member
rans00vert said:
0 to 60 means something on the street? When was the last time you legally went through a city at 60mph? Or do you always try to launch the car to 60mph at every stoplight? As for Evan smith driving the Saleen? Let's see what he does with the GT500 before using his best times. Verses a claimed best time from the factory.
NK06Roush
New Member
RICKS said:
How is over 500lbs not a big difference in weight? 06 GT w/supercharger =3500. GT500 close to 4000lbs The new c6 corvette which I know is only 3100-3200lbs has a whole 100 hp less than the new GT500 but its still faster than it in 1/4mile. You would think a 500 hp car would be quicker buts its a heavy s.o.b. Don't get me wrong...I would die for a new Shelby and I do think it would be faster than a s/c saleen in the 1/4mile but only by very slightly given equal drivers. Basically in this situation what it comes down to is if the gt500's extra 65hp (given the hp figures for both cars are acurate) is enough to overcome the 500lbs of extra weight it carries. Forget about the convertable tho. 4200lbs....I'v seen SUV's lighter than that. One other thing to keep in consideration is the aftermarket mods and their effect on the new shelby. While the saleen maxes out with a safe 435 hp (and I mean without forging internals or any serious engine work) the GT500 may be capable of making close to 600hp with a few minor boltons and a smaller pulley swap. While the saleen can swap in a smaller pulley it runs the risk of really blowing the engine. The gt500 can have much higher hp potential without serious risk of engine damage. Then its weight will start to be less of a factor. Stock tho - I think its too heavy. Just my .02
NK06Roush said:
O.K., now we're playing with some slightly sloppy data.
* Curb weight of a stock 2006 GT (no blower) is 3483-3518, assuming it's a manual, ranging due to options. Adding the blower kit depends on the kit, intercooler or none, etc.. Alot of options there. But....who cares, this thread's premise was a SC Saleen vs. GT500. Everybody knows that you can aftermarket-add-on a stock GT to move as fast or faster than the new GT500 for less money, you just lose your warranty, and take your chances with driveability and durability. It's always been a bit pointless to compare factory iron with shadetree builds.
* 2006 Saleen S281-SC, Saleen claims an "estimated" 3550 lbs. I'm having a tough time buying that, if you extrapolate the stock GT's weight, figure the Saleen is fully optioned, and then add that hefty/fancy center-exit with electrically-activated-dumps exhaust system, all the cladding, the extra bodywork on the tail, the supercharger with 2-stage water/air intercooler, and those HUGE 20-inch wheels with larger rubber, it all adds weight. And on my calculator, it would have to add up to more than 32 pounds, which would have to be the figure if the 3550 claim were correct.
* 2007 GT500 curb weight is 3920 lbs. If you're going to round-up, round everybody up 80 pounds to make it fair. Bottom line, there's not "500 pounds" separating the GT500 and the Saleen S281-SC. No way.. My best educated guess, given the aforementioned facts, is a roughly 300-lbs. So the question is, does the GT500 have enough extra juice to overcome the equivalant of a fat passenger?? I think it probably does.
* 2006 C6 coupe curb weight begins at 3179 lbs, but there's an AWFUL lot of options on those cars that bump up the weight. Most magazine test cars chime in at 3270-3300 pounds. 1/4 times at all the mags for Z51-equipped cars (better gearing) are in the 12.5-12.8 range at 113-114 mph. They are just a whisker quicker, but lower mph, and that's with better aerodynamics. So how do they get the quickness over the GT500? Better front-rear weight bias puts more weight over the rear tires, better transfer at launch, better 60-foot times. Simple, it's drag-racing 101.
* Motor Trend ran almost identical 12.7 @ 116 mph 1/4-mile runs in two different GT500's, at two different venues. Supposedly (I haven't read the article), Evan Smith ran a 12.25 at 117+ for whatever that might mean to anybody (his times always seem to be beans vs. franks, they've always got some tweaking involved..). In any case, Motor Trend's times show that the GT500 is pretty-much on-par with the C6, and actually a bit stronger pulling once the launch and 1-2 shift are out of the way. Not bad for an extra 650-odd pounds of luggage vs. the Vette.
At least we both agree that the GT500 will still likely put a nose on the almost-as-porky S281-SC. And you made a brilliant point that the GT500's short-block is battle-ready for easy-breezy performance upgrades, whereas the Saleen's internals limit your ability to reach deeper into the boost.
I just wanted to make the arguments accurate.
The GT500 should be the superior car. However, it would be close enough to be a driver's race. Can you pull sub-2.00 60' times on your street tires?... cause it can be done. Can the "fella" in the GT500 pull sub-2.00 60' times on street tires?... cause it can be done. It'll be a matter of who can launch and who can't. I've seen some guys make real fast cars look like turds because they couldn't launch them. I wasted a C6 Z06 at our home track simply because the driver pulled a 2.3 60' time.
Who's gonna be the cat to pulla 1.98 60' time w/ over 400 rwhp??? That's what it'll come down to.
Who's gonna be the cat to pulla 1.98 60' time w/ over 400 rwhp??? That's what it'll come down to.
Exactly... There's alot of fudge factor going on in real-world racing..
But by the numbers, and the trap speeds I've seen (60-foot doesn't affect trap speed much), there's more potential in the GT500..
I saw a fumbling bumbling C6 Z06 owner who couldn't break into the 12's at my local track. It's not easy walking that razor's edge out of the hole with 500 h.p. under your foot, so guys who aren't terribly "gifted" in manipulating machinery really can look like bozos out on the strip, even if they paid $70 grand for the latest and greatest mouse-trap. That doesn't mean the car is slow though. Usually the magazine times are RELATIVELY standardized, and the drivers have at least enough moxy to figure out a "decent" launch after 2 or 3 tries, so while it's no substitute for real-life, you can usually figure that the magazines are within several tenths of the best a car can manage bone stock.
I've always been able to manage 2-3 tenths better than magazines. In the case of my old '93 6-spd Vette, I obliterated the magazine times with a 13.41 @ 107.2 when the car had only 1700 miles on it, totally stock right down to the factory oil in the crankcase.
Once some Shelbys get delivered, and get some good break-in miles on them, the cooler weather will start to arrive, and we'll begin to learn what they are capable of in the hands of capable drivers. That's why I want to know what rans00vert has run at the track (if he's even been to a track), so we've got a real number for comparison.
But by the numbers, and the trap speeds I've seen (60-foot doesn't affect trap speed much), there's more potential in the GT500..
I saw a fumbling bumbling C6 Z06 owner who couldn't break into the 12's at my local track. It's not easy walking that razor's edge out of the hole with 500 h.p. under your foot, so guys who aren't terribly "gifted" in manipulating machinery really can look like bozos out on the strip, even if they paid $70 grand for the latest and greatest mouse-trap. That doesn't mean the car is slow though. Usually the magazine times are RELATIVELY standardized, and the drivers have at least enough moxy to figure out a "decent" launch after 2 or 3 tries, so while it's no substitute for real-life, you can usually figure that the magazines are within several tenths of the best a car can manage bone stock.
I've always been able to manage 2-3 tenths better than magazines. In the case of my old '93 6-spd Vette, I obliterated the magazine times with a 13.41 @ 107.2 when the car had only 1700 miles on it, totally stock right down to the factory oil in the crankcase.
Once some Shelbys get delivered, and get some good break-in miles on them, the cooler weather will start to arrive, and we'll begin to learn what they are capable of in the hands of capable drivers. That's why I want to know what rans00vert has run at the track (if he's even been to a track), so we've got a real number for comparison.
NK06Roush
New Member
RICKS said:O.K., now we're playing with some slightly sloppy data.
* Curb weight of a stock 2006 GT (no blower) is 3483-3518, assuming it's a manual, ranging due to options. Adding the blower kit depends on the kit, intercooler or none, etc.. Alot of options there. But....who cares, this thread's premise was a SC Saleen vs. GT500. Everybody knows that you can aftermarket-add-on a stock GT to move as fast or faster than the new GT500 for less money, you just lose your warranty, and take your chances with driveability and durability. It's always been a bit pointless to compare factory iron with shadetree builds.
* 2006 Saleen S281-SC, Saleen claims an "estimated" 3550 lbs. I'm having a tough time buying that, if you extrapolate the stock GT's weight, figure the Saleen is fully optioned, and then add that hefty/fancy center-exit with electrically-activated-dumps exhaust system, all the cladding, the extra bodywork on the tail, the supercharger with 2-stage water/air intercooler, and those HUGE 20-inch wheels with larger rubber, it all adds weight. And on my calculator, it would have to add up to more than 32 pounds, which would have to be the figure if the 3550 claim were correct.
* 2007 GT500 curb weight is 3920 lbs. If you're going to round-up, round everybody up 80 pounds to make it fair. Bottom line, there's not "500 pounds" separating the GT500 and the Saleen S281-SC. No way.. My best educated guess, given the aforementioned facts, is a roughly 300-lbs. So the question is, does the GT500 have enough extra juice to overcome the equivalant of a fat passenger?? I think it probably does.
* 2006 C6 coupe curb weight begins at 3179 lbs, but there's an AWFUL lot of options on those cars that bump up the weight. Most magazine test cars chime in at 3270-3300 pounds. 1/4 times at all the mags for Z51-equipped cars (better gearing) are in the 12.5-12.8 range at 113-114 mph. They are just a whisker quicker, but lower mph, and that's with better aerodynamics. So how do they get the quickness over the GT500? Better front-rear weight bias puts more weight over the rear tires, better transfer at launch, better 60-foot times. Simple, it's drag-racing 101.
* Motor Trend ran almost identical 12.7 @ 116 mph 1/4-mile runs in two different GT500's, at two different venues. Supposedly (I haven't read the article), Evan Smith ran a 12.25 at 117+ for whatever that might mean to anybody (his times always seem to be beans vs. franks, they've always got some tweaking involved..). In any case, Motor Trend's times show that the GT500 is pretty-much on-par with the C6, and actually a bit stronger pulling once the launch and 1-2 shift are out of the way. Not bad for an extra 650-odd pounds of luggage vs. the Vette.
At least we both agree that the GT500 will still likely put a nose on the almost-as-porky S281-SC. And you made a brilliant point that the GT500's short-block is battle-ready for easy-breezy performance upgrades, whereas the Saleen's internals limit your ability to reach deeper into the boost.
I just wanted to make the arguments accurate.
O.k. I was off a little with the numbers. I have an '06 Roush that I am supercharging in 2 weeks. The roushcharger gives me a 3yr/36,000 mile warranty so its as if I am getting a supercharged car from the factory in terms of driveabilty and durability. About the other points I don't want to argue at all. You made very good sense. To me personally the GT500 just seems so heavy. I guess when it really does come out though we will see how it stacks up.
It's not light, that's for sure..... But neither was my '00 Lightning, and with a few cheap and easy mods, it was an absolute menace... Remember, the Terminator didn't really build its street cred by it's bone stock numbers. It built it by how ungodly fast it could be made with such little effort and money.
Good luck with your Roush blower install.... Sounds like a smart way to go...
Good luck with your Roush blower install.... Sounds like a smart way to go...
Good stuff!
Good thread and some really outstanding posts by RICKS. I'm wondering a lot of the same things since I have a very lightly optioned '06 GT (base CD player - not the 500, no side airbags, 5-spd manual, leather, IUP) and I'm in the process of installing a Roushcharger kit along with some GT500 intercooling system goodies. I'm hoping to have a car that is close to Saleen's approximation of 3550 lbs when I'm done, but will most likely go over that even though the Roush system has to weigh less than the larger Saleen blower. I'll also be making a little less power though, but the ultra-OE looking and fitting Roush kit was too good to pass on. My target for peformance is somewhere between a stock '03/'04 Cobra and a C5 Z06/base C6 Z51. I have KDW G-force 295/35-19s on the rear, and hopefully they will do ok in the traction department. I was finally able to get part numbers for the GT500 parts I needed today and ordered them, so it shouldn't be too much longer until I'm running. Here are a few pics:
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Good thread and some really outstanding posts by RICKS. I'm wondering a lot of the same things since I have a very lightly optioned '06 GT (base CD player - not the 500, no side airbags, 5-spd manual, leather, IUP) and I'm in the process of installing a Roushcharger kit along with some GT500 intercooling system goodies. I'm hoping to have a car that is close to Saleen's approximation of 3550 lbs when I'm done, but will most likely go over that even though the Roush system has to weigh less than the larger Saleen blower. I'll also be making a little less power though, but the ultra-OE looking and fitting Roush kit was too good to pass on. My target for peformance is somewhere between a stock '03/'04 Cobra and a C5 Z06/base C6 Z51. I have KDW G-force 295/35-19s on the rear, and hopefully they will do ok in the traction department. I was finally able to get part numbers for the GT500 parts I needed today and ordered them, so it shouldn't be too much longer until I'm running. Here are a few pics:
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NK06Roush
New Member
White05GT said:
Thanks! I actually put a lot of time into them prior to having them powder coated. I smoothed all of the casting flash/mold marks from the flanges and filled in some minor pits. It was truly a labor of love, and was my winter 'project'. I'm waiting for a box of GT500 parts to get here and then I'll be done with the engine. Just a few more days...
There is one thing that I didn't see anyone bring up. That is that the new Shelby has a better hp to weight ratio than the new 'Vette. Which to me also shows that it has a better hp to weight ratio than the new Saleen. Gear ratios are more of the Shelby's problem, in my opinion.
Look at the Shelby's gearing. It sucks. It is the real reason that it couldn't beat the 'Vette in the quarter or 0-60. Ford chose gas mileage over better performance. I think that the better way to go would have been to get a different gear out back and then up the overdrive ratios in the transmission, which seems to be the way the 'Vette does it, although it also has lower 1-4 gearing in the tranny at the same time. Give the 'Vette the same gearing as the Shelby and see who comes out on top. This would hold true with the Saleen. With equal gearing, the Shelby should beat it fairly easily.
Either way, Ford chose to make the new Shelby a brick and gave it even higher ratios than my '03. Not a good combination.
Look at the Shelby's gearing. It sucks. It is the real reason that it couldn't beat the 'Vette in the quarter or 0-60. Ford chose gas mileage over better performance. I think that the better way to go would have been to get a different gear out back and then up the overdrive ratios in the transmission, which seems to be the way the 'Vette does it, although it also has lower 1-4 gearing in the tranny at the same time. Give the 'Vette the same gearing as the Shelby and see who comes out on top. This would hold true with the Saleen. With equal gearing, the Shelby should beat it fairly easily.
Either way, Ford chose to make the new Shelby a brick and gave it even higher ratios than my '03. Not a good combination.
