Will 'brake' For Beer.

Okay. Next steps. Im gonna turn the drums and just going to grab new shoes. I'm just shaking my head... petting the dog...and opening a beer... and my mind!! Be thinking, in advance, of what the hell is going on here! If this doesn't do it I'm gonna be TOTALLY lost. I'll get all this done tomorrow and report back.
 
  • Sponsors (?)


I've replaced the incorrect power MC with the correct manual MC. I've opened up and restored the distribution block (it's working perfectly...dash brake light on/off). No leaks in the system.

Over the weekend I tore it all back down. I installed new shoes in the rear and cleaned up the fronts. I also picked up new wheel cylinders. One of the biggest reasons I decided to tear into the wheel cylinders is because someone had installed the incorrect MC, I figured it was at least a possibility an incorrect wheel cylinder might have made its way onto the car.

The front cylinders were the correct bore-diameter/part (and seemed to be working)...but were really nasty inside the dust boot. I went ahead and replaced them, just to begin taking possible problems off the table.

Then I went on to the back. Guess what I found? Yep. Incorrect bore/piston diameter on the car. The .875 bore is the correct one for the car, not the other that was installed (see photos).

It was getting late last night, so I wrapped everything up and put the drums back on. The brakes just need to be adjusted up and bled, then I'll test it out and see where we are. I'll update in the next couple days. Fingers crossed!
 

Attachments

  • brake before.jpg
    brake before.jpg
    58.5 KB · Views: 156
  • brake after.jpg
    brake after.jpg
    59.7 KB · Views: 157
  • incorrect cyl.jpg
    incorrect cyl.jpg
    83.5 KB · Views: 154
  • correct cyl.jpg
    correct cyl.jpg
    85.6 KB · Views: 138
UPDATE:
69 Fastback (F) manual - all drums. Between last week and this weekend...here's where I am. New MC, I cleaned up and un-froze the distribution block (piston), new shoes, new drums, new wheel cylinders, new springs and hardware. Still very weak pedal. I can hammer the brakes as hard as I can and the car will barely brake. Yesterday another brand new master cylinder. Bench bled the new MC and it was solid as a rock. (1/8" travel per manual=pefect). Put it on the car...exact same thing. Weak pedal...not firm. (I didn't re-bleed the sytem after new MC installation...just too pissed to take more time yesterday). The previous owner installed new rubber lines on front and rear. As of today...EVERYTHING has been replaced (new) except the steel lines and the distribution block. ALL parts are verified the correct part (including bore diameters., etc per shop manual). The dist block was frozen...100%. The distribution block seems to be working properly now. My dash light appears when bleeding. Move to the cylinder opposite last side bled and can get the light to go off. Piston is moving.

The only things I'm leaning toward are the dist block and lines. Anyone have any suggestions or ideas on what the heck this is?

Thanks!
 

Attachments

  • Dist piston before.jpg
    Dist piston before.jpg
    49.3 KB · Views: 138
  • dist after rebuild.jpg
    dist after rebuild.jpg
    34.1 KB · Views: 124
  • New Brakes-Drum.jpg
    New Brakes-Drum.jpg
    57.4 KB · Views: 127
  • New brakes.jpg
    New brakes.jpg
    80.6 KB · Views: 116
  • Installed.jpg
    Installed.jpg
    38.3 KB · Views: 122
The combination valve on Fords with drum brakes does 2 things. It's a distribution block to send fluid to the front and rear separately, and it's a brake failure warning switch. That's all. If the "shuttle" DOES happen to move and trip the switch that's ALL it does. It doesn't shut off or redirect fluid flow like a GM switch will, so you can eliminate that.

The first thing to suspect is that there is a power brake pedal installed. Yes, there were 2 different pedals, one for power brakes and one for manual brakes. The attachment point is in a different place and if you use a power brake pedal in a manual brake application the pedal effort will be, well, like a power brake without any vacuum.

The next thing to suspect is incorrectly installed shoes. There is a primary shoe and a secondary shoe. You want the primary shoe facing toward the front of the car and the secondary shoe facing the rear. The primary show is the one with the shorter lining.

The next thing is brake shoes with crappy friction (lining) material. Some overseas stuff doesn't generate enough friction to stop a shopping cart. You need shoes with "bite".

The last thing I can think of on the list are brake drums that are close to or past their "discard". Drums that are worn out will provide a small contact area for the shoes, near the center of the lining instead of evenly, all the way around. You can measure the drums with a drum micrometer or gauge.

EDIT: Yep, just looked at your photo's and they look to me like you have the shoes on backwards...longer shoe should be facing the REAR.
 
Distribution block: Ok

Brake pedal: A friend of mine actually mentioned that too. I have no reason to believe the pedal has ever been replaced. I will verify correct measurement. Honestly this is the only thing not new...with the exception of the steel lines.

Shoes: All new. Yes, already fixed the primary and secondary shoes installed incorrectly. They are now installed correctly and verified correct all the way around. Possibly not 'good' enough brand. Today I'm going to arch them.

Drums: All 4 new.

I'll be working on it again today and update.

Thanks for the input!
 
GOTTEM!! Only 6 weeks (weekends)!!

I believe the problem were 1 or more questionable flares on the front tubing at the dist block. I replaced all the steel lines for the front, bled. I could tell the pedal felt firmer even before bringing the car off the jack stands. I was feeling a bit more optimistic than I have in weeks. I put it in reverse and let off the brake... started rolling...applied the brake and could tell I FINALLY had something under my foot. Took it around the neighborhood a few times, lots of stop signs and corners...up to 30...brake...good. Got it to about 35 (the fastest I've driven since I got the car on Sept 19th). Put my foot in it HARD...and presto...rubber squealed real good! SIGH! Still have a tiny bit of tweaking left to do but can finally can move along. Now I'm going to tear it all down and put discs up front...HEHE! (gonna get some other things done 1st though!)
:rock:
Just wanted to update!
 

Attachments

  • Old Lines.jpg
    Old Lines.jpg
    92.4 KB · Views: 126
  • Firewall.jpg
    Firewall.jpg
    44.8 KB · Views: 128
  • New stuff.jpg
    New stuff.jpg
    41.8 KB · Views: 123
  • New installed.jpg
    New installed.jpg
    56.9 KB · Views: 119
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
In a factory installation, the only Fords that will have a proportioning valve would be one that has discs front/drums rear. Proportioning is only one function of the combination valve. The other function of the combination valve is pressure differential sensing.

These two functions of the disc/drum valve weren't combined into one valve body until 1970. Prior to this (1967-1969), the proportioning valve was external to the pressure differential valve body.

In a 4 wheel drum equipped Mustang, from '67-up, there will only be a pressure differential valve. There is no proportioning valve function in this valve.

Under normal braking situations (disc/drum brake system), the proportioning valve doesn't function. It's only in a panic stop situation, where brake pressure forces are high and there's a dramatic shift in weight of the vehicle from the rear to the front, that the proportioning valve functions to limit the pressure rise to the rear drums, in proportion to the amount of pressure being applied to the front discs.

You can test the brake warning switch of a drum/drum pressure differential valve or a disc/drum combination valve, without removing the plastic switch from the valve body, to determine if the pressure differential valve spool has shifted off center. You can do this by taking a multi-meter and set it for Ohms --even better if you have an audible function on the meter. Touch one lead to the metal prong inside the switch (where the wiring pigtail would plug into the switch). Touch the other meter lead to the outside of the valve body. If you have an audible setting and the meter doesn't 'beep,' then the spool is centered (that's good). If the meter does beep, that's bad because it means the pressure differential valve spool has shifted off-center and the spool will have to be re-centered.

A valve lock tool will only work on a pressure differential valve spool that's centered to begin with --you install it just prior to bleeding the brakes out. It will not re-center a valve spool that previously shifted off-center.

If the flexible brake hoses are old, replace them. The inner lining of them will slough off/collapse over time. This can either make it difficult to get fluid/pressure to the wheel cylinders/caliper pistons or, it can act like a check valve where fluid/pressure builds in the wheel cylinders/caliper pistons but, is slow to release the brakes, once you get off the brake pedal.

The MC bore size can also make a vehicle hard to stop or, make the brakes too sensitive to even lightest brake applications. The smaller the MC bore the higher the output pressure to the brakes but, the less volume of fluid moved. Smaller MC bores will also increase brake pedal travel.

A larger bore MC will have less output pressure but move more fluid. The brake pedal is usually much harder and has less travel. A MC bore that's too large for the brake system will make it difficult to stop the vehicle.

Shoe placement of a drum brake system is important. The shorter shoe goes toward the front. The longer shoe goes toward the rear. If these are swapped, it will make it difficult to stop the car going forward but, it'll stop really well when backing up.

Any oil or grease on the drum linings/disc pads will render them useless and they'll have to be replaced with new components and the friction surfaces of the drums/rotors will have to be thoroughly cleaned before putting the new linings on.

Never take new brakes and immediately start making hard stops with them. This will glaze the linings/pads and friction surfaces of the drums/discs. New brake components have to be bedded in before putting them into regular service or, it will be difficult to get the vehicle to stop. There's plenty of information on the net on how to properly bed in new brakes.
 
Last edited:
Breathing new life into this old thread. There's been a lot of progress on the Fastback.

Well, needless to say, I fixed my brake problem. Stainless RF line was the culprit. I think (but still not 100%) it was the flare at the block. Anyway...out with the old...in with the new. Took it around the block, hit the brake pretty good, got some squealing. BRAKES WORK!

I'll make a quick post about the last 10 Months since I've been on! Seems like the only time I get online is when I have issues...not just to update. Pretty crappy I haven't updated every weekend... but it's easier (and more fulfilling) for me to work on the car than to always keep up to date online. Anyway...I hope you'll take a look at the progress and hope you like what's been taking so much time!

I only work on the car on the weekends. Since I bought the car last August, I've only taken about 3 weekends off.

*It took me about 2 months to finally get stopped...this was a major PITA to troubleshoot!

(Right as I was finishing the brakes, the man I bought the car from passed away. He and I were texting back and forth the entire time I was working on them. I sent him a message that I FINALLY figured it out...I never got a response. He didn't get to see that problem solved or the progress after. I know he sold me the car knowing I'd do something with it. I'd like to think he knows I didn't let him or the car down.

*Then it was on to paint/body for about 4 months.
*Steering and suspension for a few weeks.
*Now I'm 90% finished with the interior. I will post some of those pix soon!
 

Attachments

  • 20141102_173701.jpg
    20141102_173701.jpg
    90.5 KB · Views: 90
  • 20141101_113817.jpg
    20141101_113817.jpg
    69.5 KB · Views: 103
  • 20141010_191723.jpg
    20141010_191723.jpg
    79.1 KB · Views: 94
  • 20140912_151400.jpg
    20140912_151400.jpg
    69.4 KB · Views: 92
  • 20140912_151410.jpg
    20140912_151410.jpg
    76.5 KB · Views: 102
  • 20141220_182737.jpg
    20141220_182737.jpg
    97 KB · Views: 98
  • 20150112_184131.jpg
    20150112_184131.jpg
    52.4 KB · Views: 90
  • 20150114_181839.jpg
    20150114_181839.jpg
    49.2 KB · Views: 111
  • 20150117_120700.jpg
    20150117_120700.jpg
    90.8 KB · Views: 105
  • 20150215_120940.jpg
    20150215_120940.jpg
    101.4 KB · Views: 87
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user