Yeah you could,...as long as you don’t expect any of the numerous events that take place after that that are requirements of a running internal combustion engine.Technically I could turn the key on mine right now too
Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.
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There still has to be some sort of crankcase ventilation. I hope like hell I don’t need anything to catch any spewed out oil, and there better not be any.
Ultimately, since this is a N/A engine, I could return it back to a PCV system and do away with the breathers altogether. But remember who we are talking about here....
First I have to spend hours building that goofy looking little catch can box with a peen, then spend a hundred dollars on braided hose and fittings, just so I can eventually route a simple hose to the iron lung that will draw crankcase vapors back into the engine..
Why do it right the first time?
Hey mike we are going to need to have a meeting of the minds for the new tune file, I am going to build the fuel table from scratch for you. I just need to know the specifics about everything.... I will be out of town all weekend so we can talk about it next week maybe.
cool. I'll get it close to startable as I can. i probably won't be ready to even consider that till sometime mid week anyway knowing how my work ethic goes.
You can do anything with your injector firing, and your base Air Fuel metering with the MS3.
MS2 is a transitional system, which sometimes requires a little bit of ignition tip in to ensure it always provides enough air flow to keep the systems polling.
That old green Toyota Mark II with the five liter V12 is batch fired, so you can certainly make a batch fire, and non coil over plug inline Six system work great with your six ITB's...., you just have to figure out how to stop the engine stalling under load by doing some ignition timing work. If there is no reliable MAP signal due to Air Fuel pig routing, the system requires a fall back option to spike/spank things into re-annimation.
The batch fire injector are fired once per 2 revolutions on the engine, and therefore half of the injectors are being being fired each revolution. You can change that but there are limits.
Going back a few steps.
The earliest port EFi systems were nearly all bank fire, like the early Volkwagen, Citroen, Merceds Benz and Jaguary V12 Bosch D Jetronic style.
This was just like the 1985 to 1995 F truck 5.0 and 5.8 bank fire systems.
All the 1982-1984 Delco P4's Cross Fire, and 1985 onwards TPi etc, were all bank fire. All the early electronic stuff was also Speed Density, and had a nasty habbit of stalling and falling "offline" for all the 1968 to 1985 era systems.
Ford went full Sequential with the 1986 Passengr car 5.0, keeping the speed denisty system. The later movement to Manifiold Absolute Flow MAF sensors instead of Speed Desnity Mass Air Pressure (MAP) was all due to reliablity in the idle to 3000 rpm sector, where emmissions and constomer happiness are the most important. Everyone knows that Speed Density systems require more Sherlock Home-Work than any other injection system. Fords movement to MAF flow sensors moved all the other problems into a central system that controlled all else.
Basically, on an I6, everything after 3000 rpm is metered as a Continuous Injection System (like an old Bosch K Jetronic or LE-II injection system).
The real advances were from 1980 -1985, when Ford used a continous Bosch D jetronic system as a throttle body EFi. Cheverolet went to a proper Cal Pac /Delco P4 a little later, making its own TBi system, and then using all the basic programming to form a relaible TPi system.
It was the same kind of deal. Speed Density has to be augmented by a fall back system to keep it idling. Batch Fire EDIS doesn't wate spark like the Coil Over plug system does, so your methods of spanking th 650 rpm top 3000 rpm segments Air Fuel delivery by igntion is limited. To make an ITB work best, your better off with full Seqential, and Coil over plug.
To EDIS system is basicaly operated the same way a 1985 CFi 5.0 AOD Auto Mustang, and in that ol TBi 2-bbl twin point system, the igntion is used to tip in and out 6 degrees of timing to ensure its idle doesn't stall or fall over. Ford aced the class back in the 80's.
MS2 is a transitional system, which sometimes requires a little bit of ignition tip in to ensure it always provides enough air flow to keep the systems polling.
That old green Toyota Mark II with the five liter V12 is batch fired, so you can certainly make a batch fire, and non coil over plug inline Six system work great with your six ITB's...., you just have to figure out how to stop the engine stalling under load by doing some ignition timing work. If there is no reliable MAP signal due to Air Fuel pig routing, the system requires a fall back option to spike/spank things into re-annimation.
The batch fire injector are fired once per 2 revolutions on the engine, and therefore half of the injectors are being being fired each revolution. You can change that but there are limits.
Going back a few steps.
The earliest port EFi systems were nearly all bank fire, like the early Volkwagen, Citroen, Merceds Benz and Jaguary V12 Bosch D Jetronic style.
This was just like the 1985 to 1995 F truck 5.0 and 5.8 bank fire systems.
All the 1982-1984 Delco P4's Cross Fire, and 1985 onwards TPi etc, were all bank fire. All the early electronic stuff was also Speed Density, and had a nasty habbit of stalling and falling "offline" for all the 1968 to 1985 era systems.
Ford went full Sequential with the 1986 Passengr car 5.0, keeping the speed denisty system. The later movement to Manifiold Absolute Flow MAF sensors instead of Speed Desnity Mass Air Pressure (MAP) was all due to reliablity in the idle to 3000 rpm sector, where emmissions and constomer happiness are the most important. Everyone knows that Speed Density systems require more Sherlock Home-Work than any other injection system. Fords movement to MAF flow sensors moved all the other problems into a central system that controlled all else.
Basically, on an I6, everything after 3000 rpm is metered as a Continuous Injection System (like an old Bosch K Jetronic or LE-II injection system).
The real advances were from 1980 -1985, when Ford used a continous Bosch D jetronic system as a throttle body EFi. Cheverolet went to a proper Cal Pac /Delco P4 a little later, making its own TBi system, and then using all the basic programming to form a relaible TPi system.
It was the same kind of deal. Speed Density has to be augmented by a fall back system to keep it idling. Batch Fire EDIS doesn't wate spark like the Coil Over plug system does, so your methods of spanking th 650 rpm top 3000 rpm segments Air Fuel delivery by igntion is limited. To make an ITB work best, your better off with full Seqential, and Coil over plug.
To EDIS system is basicaly operated the same way a 1985 CFi 5.0 AOD Auto Mustang, and in that ol TBi 2-bbl twin point system, the igntion is used to tip in and out 6 degrees of timing to ensure its idle doesn't stall or fall over. Ford aced the class back in the 80's.
I'll bet some of you are wondering.......
Wonder if he was able to figure out the throttle thing yet?
Nope.
Well, maybe. I got nothing to show except a drying painted bracket. This will make it V5.0.
The cable running under and over pullies added drag. That drag wouldn't allow the throttle blades to close if you lifted off of the pedal at part throttle. They'd snap shut if you lifted at full throttle, because at WOT, the spring pressure was sufficient to close them.
At anything less than that........not so much.
So I completely bailed on that plan, and have since moved to a bracket that will attach the throttle cable directly to the shaft.
No pullies.
No cable routing over the river and through the woods.
Does it work?
I don't freakin know.
All I know is that it is a sonofabtch to get to. And if it does work, I ain't taking it back apart to paint it.
So I painted it first.
I'll put the whole thing together, and bolt it in there and THEN I'll check it.
Hopefully it does.
It's killing me that's for sure. The precious little time that I used to dog people for trading away to a shop has now reared it's head full circle. I almost have to force myself to go down there to work on this thing. The 50+ hour work week, and my status as a metal knee'd crotchedy have become one big plate of "I could give a fck" when it comes to deciding whether or not to give up an hour in the morning, or an hour at the end of the day to mess with it.
I have this new bracket fabbed, welded, smoothed, and now painted, waiting on tomorrow to bolt it in. The top of my right arm looks like the cat used it as a scratching post,.....everytime I test fit the thing, A cut off wire tie would gouge the sht out of me. I had no Idea that I was tearing my arm up so bad until today when a co-worker asked me what happened to it.
What's happening is that I'm getting bitten.........Repeatedly,.............By a Gila Monster.
I feel faint.
Wonder if he was able to figure out the throttle thing yet?
Nope.
Well, maybe. I got nothing to show except a drying painted bracket. This will make it V5.0.
The cable running under and over pullies added drag. That drag wouldn't allow the throttle blades to close if you lifted off of the pedal at part throttle. They'd snap shut if you lifted at full throttle, because at WOT, the spring pressure was sufficient to close them.
At anything less than that........not so much.
So I completely bailed on that plan, and have since moved to a bracket that will attach the throttle cable directly to the shaft.
No pullies.
No cable routing over the river and through the woods.
Does it work?
I don't freakin know.
All I know is that it is a sonofabtch to get to. And if it does work, I ain't taking it back apart to paint it.
So I painted it first.
I'll put the whole thing together, and bolt it in there and THEN I'll check it.
Hopefully it does.
It's killing me that's for sure. The precious little time that I used to dog people for trading away to a shop has now reared it's head full circle. I almost have to force myself to go down there to work on this thing. The 50+ hour work week, and my status as a metal knee'd crotchedy have become one big plate of "I could give a fck" when it comes to deciding whether or not to give up an hour in the morning, or an hour at the end of the day to mess with it.
I have this new bracket fabbed, welded, smoothed, and now painted, waiting on tomorrow to bolt it in. The top of my right arm looks like the cat used it as a scratching post,.....everytime I test fit the thing, A cut off wire tie would gouge the sht out of me. I had no Idea that I was tearing my arm up so bad until today when a co-worker asked me what happened to it.
What's happening is that I'm getting bitten.........Repeatedly,.............By a Gila Monster.
I feel faint.
Just wait until you hit your 70's - the honey-do's will swallow up all your spare time and energy. I have a carpentry project to build a 6' high' x5' wide x 2 deep' wardrobe closet for my wife's mountain of clothes. It should have been finished 9 months ago, but it still doesn't have the 4 bi-fold doors completed...I'll bet some of you are wondering.......
Wonder if he was able to figure out the throttle thing yet?
Nope.
Well, maybe. I got nothing to show except a drying painted bracket. This will make it V5.0.
The cable running under and over pullies added drag. That drag wouldn't allow the throttle blades to close if you lifted off of the pedal at part throttle. They'd snap shut if you lifted at full throttle, because at WOT, the spring pressure was sufficient to close them.
At anything less than that........not so much.
So I completely bailed on that plan, and have since moved to a bracket that will attach the throttle cable directly to the shaft.
No pullies.
No cable routing over the river and through the woods.
Does it work?
I don't freakin know.
All I know is that it is a sonofabtch to get to. And if it does work, I ain't taking it back apart to paint it.
So I painted it first.
I'll put the whole thing together, and bolt it in there and THEN I'll check it.
Hopefully it does.
It's killing me that's for sure. The precious little time that I used to dog people for trading away to a shop has now reared it's head full circle. I almost have to force myself to go down there to work on this thing. The 50+ hour work week, and my status as a metal knee'd crotchedy have become one big plate of "I could give a fck" when it comes to deciding whether or not to give up an hour in the morning, or an hour at the end of the day to mess with it.
I have this new bracket fabbed, welded, smoothed, and now painted, waiting on tomorrow to bolt it in. The top of my right arm looks like the cat used it as a scratching post,.....everytime I test fit the thing, A cut off wire tie would gouge the sht out of me. I had no Idea that I was tearing my arm up so bad until today when a co-worker asked me what happened to it.
What's happening is that I'm getting bitten.........Repeatedly,.............By a Gila Monster.
I feel faint.
Just hang a blanket in front of it Joe. BAM! Project finished
Hey joe, when you get that bi fold door hung come on over, I got 3 interior doors that need hang'n.
For 5 years now
They still need painting so you got some time.
For 5 years now
They still need painting so you got some time.
1990Coupe
Founding Member
i say stop what you're doing. Sell the entire setup, and go Ford Barra. #winning
If I can’t figure out how to open the throttle blades, it may come to that.
I'll bet some of you are wondering.......
Wonder if he was able to figure out the throttle thing yet?
Nope.
Well, maybe. I got nothing to show except a drying painted bracket. This will make it V5.0.
The cable running under and over pullies added drag. That drag wouldn't allow the throttle blades to close if you lifted off of the pedal at part throttle. They'd snap shut if you lifted at full throttle, because at WOT, the spring pressure was sufficient to close them.
At anything less than that........not so much.
So I completely bailed on that plan, and have since moved to a bracket that will attach the throttle cable directly to the shaft.
No pullies.
No cable routing over the river and through the woods.
Does it work?
I don't freakin know.
All I know is that it is a sonofabtch to get to. And if it does work, I ain't taking it back apart to paint it.
So I painted it first.
I'll put the whole thing together, and bolt it in there and THEN I'll check it.
Hopefully it does.
It's killing me that's for sure. The precious little time that I used to dog people for trading away to a shop has now reared it's head full circle. I almost have to force myself to go down there to work on this thing. The 50+ hour work week, and my status as a metal knee'd crotchedy have become one big plate of "I could give a fck" when it comes to deciding whether or not to give up an hour in the morning, or an hour at the end of the day to mess with it.
I have this new bracket fabbed, welded, smoothed, and now painted, waiting on tomorrow to bolt it in. The top of my right arm looks like the cat used it as a scratching post,.....everytime I test fit the thing, A cut off wire tie would gouge the sht out of me. I had no Idea that I was tearing my arm up so bad until today when a co-worker asked me what happened to it.
What's happening is that I'm getting bitten.........Repeatedly,.............By a Gila Monster.
I feel faint.
It'll work just fine....
Ferruccio Lamborghini hired a lot of odd ball people to make his Lamborghini GT350 work six DCOE 40 carbs on a V12. Kiwi Farmer boy Bob Wallace was one. Wallace style, he just made the throttle travel at the pendant real kick bu++ l-o-n-g, and then altered the radius of the arm on the carb throttle to suit.
Pull out arc S= r times theta.
Theta Sports 101.
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I come back after years off the forum and this thread is still going?
This may have been the longest running thread ever!
Now I have to go back through pages to figure out how far you are from the last time I saw the progress.
This may have been the longest running thread ever!
Now I have to go back through pages to figure out how far you are from the last time I saw the progress.
Welcome back. Mike is a little slower these days, so we fill his thread with useful tips and how to in his place. In the last year he has only changed his air filter from motorcraft paper to a K&N cone.
Ok....................
This is one of my classic "One step forward, two steps back" updates.
What you see is a successful solution to the mind numbing ordeal trying to get the throttle cable thing solved. This works really well...................... Finally.
Then, for whatever bass ackwards reason, I decide to deal with the TPS sensor. (Now located at the back of the very last TB,...the one closest to the firewall).
I don't know why I do it this way I gotta tell ya....You'd think that I would've tried to deal with the TPS sensor while the head was off the engine, but noooooooo.
I gotta do it the hard way.
Screws hold the thing on......... Phillips head metric screws. With absolutely no way in hell to get any kind of screw driver in between the firewall, and the head of the screw.
Does that stop me from trying to get it tight?
Nope.
Does it take a stupidly long time to do it, filled with the kind of cuss words typically associated with drunken sailors?
Yep.
But I did it.
Again, instead of checking the TPS sensor calibration while it was off the engine, when it could've been screwed on that TB easily, I have to do it when there is no room to do it. And now, even though I managed to get it screwed on to the TB, checking the thing for calibration determined that in it's present mounting position, and hooked up to a 9 volt battery to give the thing voltage,........
It shows 2.3 v at idle. WOT reads another 7v. (The check of this battery shows 9.2v)
When you move the test equipment over to the 70mm TB that used to be on the turbocharged setup, It shows .91 v at idle, and 8.02v at WOT.
So then whats the take away?.......
The freakin BMW TPS sensor is showing twice as much voltage at idle....and there is no way to adjust it.
So,....nothing left to do but remove the TPS sensor from the back of that TB.....The very same one that took for freakin ever to get tight, now has to get loosened, and removed to check it. After more D.S. cussing, I manage. As soon as the screws are removed, it becomes immediately apparent that the thing is preloaded as it spins slightly counter-clockwise.
Once removed and hooked up to the test equipment, It will read 0v at full closed idle, and 9v at full open. The bushings that are in the thing will not let me rotate it so that I could put it on the TB, and rotate it counterclockwise to show 0v.
So then....whatya do?
You beat the bushings out, and drill some big assed holes to allow that to happen. Which is what I did.
Once you do that, you turn your attention to the rewire....Remember my really pretty harness?
It don't look like that anymore.
I gutted it so I could pull the TPS sensor wires out and splice them in at the rear of the harness. Now it looks like ass on a plate.
Fortunately, it's underneath the whole menagerie that is now a bunch of BMW stuff.
Again, Why didn't I do this when the whole engine was out of the car when I couldve gutted it, then repaired it while it was sooo easy to do? Because I just love to make sht way harder than it has to be.
But I did it...
Wanna know the whole irony to the whole debacle that this day was?..... It goes perfectly hand in hand with all of the other "do it twice mike" work ethic I make for myself...
I have a Megasquirt computer......I'm pretty sure that I couldv'e just left sht alone, and calibrated the TPS sensor through the setup tools with the tuning software.
Somebody tell me that I coulda done this.
Then somebody give me a gun,.. cause .I'm gonna shoot myself.
This is one of my classic "One step forward, two steps back" updates.
What you see is a successful solution to the mind numbing ordeal trying to get the throttle cable thing solved. This works really well...................... Finally.
Then, for whatever bass ackwards reason, I decide to deal with the TPS sensor. (Now located at the back of the very last TB,...the one closest to the firewall).
I don't know why I do it this way I gotta tell ya....You'd think that I would've tried to deal with the TPS sensor while the head was off the engine, but noooooooo.
I gotta do it the hard way.
Screws hold the thing on......... Phillips head metric screws. With absolutely no way in hell to get any kind of screw driver in between the firewall, and the head of the screw.
Does that stop me from trying to get it tight?
Nope.
Does it take a stupidly long time to do it, filled with the kind of cuss words typically associated with drunken sailors?
Yep.
But I did it.
Again, instead of checking the TPS sensor calibration while it was off the engine, when it could've been screwed on that TB easily, I have to do it when there is no room to do it. And now, even though I managed to get it screwed on to the TB, checking the thing for calibration determined that in it's present mounting position, and hooked up to a 9 volt battery to give the thing voltage,........
It shows 2.3 v at idle. WOT reads another 7v. (The check of this battery shows 9.2v)
When you move the test equipment over to the 70mm TB that used to be on the turbocharged setup, It shows .91 v at idle, and 8.02v at WOT.
So then whats the take away?.......
The freakin BMW TPS sensor is showing twice as much voltage at idle....and there is no way to adjust it.
So,....nothing left to do but remove the TPS sensor from the back of that TB.....The very same one that took for freakin ever to get tight, now has to get loosened, and removed to check it. After more D.S. cussing, I manage. As soon as the screws are removed, it becomes immediately apparent that the thing is preloaded as it spins slightly counter-clockwise.
Once removed and hooked up to the test equipment, It will read 0v at full closed idle, and 9v at full open. The bushings that are in the thing will not let me rotate it so that I could put it on the TB, and rotate it counterclockwise to show 0v.
So then....whatya do?
You beat the bushings out, and drill some big assed holes to allow that to happen. Which is what I did.
Once you do that, you turn your attention to the rewire....Remember my really pretty harness?
It don't look like that anymore.
I gutted it so I could pull the TPS sensor wires out and splice them in at the rear of the harness. Now it looks like ass on a plate.
Fortunately, it's underneath the whole menagerie that is now a bunch of BMW stuff.
Again, Why didn't I do this when the whole engine was out of the car when I couldve gutted it, then repaired it while it was sooo easy to do? Because I just love to make sht way harder than it has to be.
But I did it...
Wanna know the whole irony to the whole debacle that this day was?..... It goes perfectly hand in hand with all of the other "do it twice mike" work ethic I make for myself...
I have a Megasquirt computer......I'm pretty sure that I couldv'e just left sht alone, and calibrated the TPS sensor through the setup tools with the tuning software.
Somebody tell me that I coulda done this.
Then somebody give me a gun,.. cause .I'm gonna shoot myself.
Well you may have only accomplished a fraction of what you wanted, but still getting closer and closer.
I don't understand that comment. If I can calibrate the sensor to 0-100 through MS, what difference does it make where it ends up initially?Uh yes yes you could have. You will still have to do that anyway.
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