Build Thread 1978 Fairmont Futura. The Gila Monster Chronicles, ( a novel)

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95BlueStallion

Yo Adrian, I did it.
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Boost tire spinning aside, I really think you should build a stock style air box for the filter off the turbo. At least be able to drive in the rain casually and work out some drivability tuning, and not fret all the way home from a car show if/when rain pops up. I mean you have the time to do it now, while its monsoon season in AL.
 

old_blue

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It was "do it twice Mike" I believe...


And here I was thinking that you had made a nice crochet decoration to hide the straps....

The glass is tempered. It cannot be through drilled, so I cannot run a long bolt through to the base.

I believe the hindsight analysis of what happened to the old setup was caused by 3 things...

#1. I used an inferior sealing agent.
#2. Pressure pushed the lid off of that sealing agent.
#3. Pressure vented through the air gap when the lid lifted.

Now that there is a method in place to lock the glass down, it can't lift and create a pressure escape path around the edges so easily. The sealant is around the full circumference of the glass, and not just under it. That means that the sealant is stuck to the metal around the glass. Think of it like any other gasket that isn't relying on sticking to both mating surfaces to maintain the seal....As long as the glass don't lift, the gasket remains intact.

Now.......If I can only keep the glass from lifting.

I was looking at using the numerous t-bolt hose clamps I have laying around here as straps due to my ability to tighten them so tightly, and I may still do that if the current setup doesn't work...
I didnt hink you would need drill the glass. Maybe cut it down to fit inside the frame The metal frame would be bolted around the edges and the glass would sit inside the frame.
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
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I didnt hink you would need drill the glass. Maybe cut it down to fit inside the frame The metal frame would be bolted around the edges and the glass would sit inside the frame.
And that is a good idea,...but there will be a point where I just dump the glass altogether if it starts being a problem to seal.
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
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There's good and bad in tonight's update...( well,...not really bad per se',.....just not good)

The good is really good...Steves dual map tune works flawlessly. And it was so close just from his guesstimate, he really didn't have to make large changes once we were in real time.
In boost, the old Monster is back....the difference between the boring "read a book while waiting for it to reach 5 grand" and me bouncing the thing almost instantly off the rev limiter set at 6250 is night and day.
We aren't even close to going after power with this thing, and even set as conservative as it is...it's way faster. It's way better .
It never bucked, never stumbled, never popped, never rattled, it didn't ping.

It just ran...really good.

The bad was expected...
IMAG0105_zpswbnprgsh.jpg

We were making 7 psi one minute, when all of the sudden we weren't. After two attempts and only 3-4 psi, I pulled over to find that the glass had lifted, and snapped the wire ties. It didn't completely come undone like it did last time, lifting like a hinge this time around instead..

I'm at the point where I have to build a significant tie down system to mechanically tighten the frame on top down, or epoxy the lid shut. I have an idea that will work and involves welding threaded tabs onto the sides of the box, and use steel straps that will span the box, ultimately running bolts through the straps and thread them into the tabs that will be on the sides for that purpose.

And that box just keeps getting uglier.

Before we had the lid failure, we attempted to bump the boost using the electronic boost controller...

It didn't work.

IMAG0106_zpsw53euw48.jpg


Duuurrrr ...wonder what was wrong? Not good planning on my part.

I did this instead
IMAG0107_zps4b3wdrfh.jpg

If this melts that'll be a bad thing.

The high heat paint has completely failed....it's flaking off everywhere.

Junk!

The oil blowing out of the engine is back...the goofy looking thing that I built to separate the oil,.....leaks...there was a small puddle under it when I came back home.

Junk!

The air box is back apart...I gotta come up with a way to seal it, and then keep the lid from lifting...if I can do that with out making some ugly contraption,..and if I can find a way to freaking keep the oil from blowing out of the engine under boost....

The Monster will be prowlin...
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
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Morning,... silent majority.

I guess I'll go get some really small vacuum tube, and run it around the inside ledge of the box where the glass sits that I'll use as a gasket. I'll either over lap the ends, or I'll seal it with some kind of silicone.
I'll set the glass on that.
Then I'll weld 10 nuts around the perimeter of the box, located on each side where the strap would have to bolt to.
Then I'll drill and tap 10 holes in the straps, and run small bolts through them to act as " pre-load " tensioners to press down on the frame at the stand off points I welded onto the frame for the straps.
Then I'll put that bsh back together, lay the straps across, bolt them on, seal the threads, and then screw the screws down to apply pressure against the frame to hold it against the gasket.

Thanks for the insight, silent majority.
 

95BlueStallion

Yo Adrian, I did it.
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You posted 4 mins before midnight and expect a lot of feedback by 08:00 the next morning. You big headed loon, we have lives you know... Can you weld the nuts to the sides of the lid, and then run your straps under the box and bolt them to the sides of the lid, thus keeping them from running over the top of the glass? Would make it prettier. All depends on how thick and strong your lid frame is I suppose.
 

90sickfox

I didn't really have an issue with the stink...
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Then I would've built a frame out of steel that went over the top of the box and held that vacuum tube sealed glass on there. Would've used sealed rivnuts and been done.

I'm no madman....and hardly a fabricator. Just had to add sumptin.
 

jrichker

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@CarMichael Angelo

Build a picture frame out of 1 1/2" angle iron that snugly fits the airbox. One side of the L faces the glass and the other side faces the side of the airbox.. Drill holes through the angle iron and into the airbox so that you can put screws in it to hold it in place .Rivnuts or aircraft nutplates would be the best choice substitute for welding nuts in place. You may opt to trim the angle iron that secures the glass in place so that it isn't the full 1 1/2" width and allows more of the airbox chamber to be seen.
 

Davedacarpainter

I think I've messed my pants
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Ok, I'm no genius, but I'll give it a go.

My idea will involve you building a whole new box over the throttle bodies. What's different inside my brain is that you have a ledge along the top of the box that will keep the glass/plastic from moving up and you make some sort of gasket that seals the glass between the top of the box when boost hits it. The more the boost, the more the glass would seal against the flange.

The metal "flange" area wouldn't give at all.

No huge trick building it, leave one side open to slide the glass in and then seal that side up.

At least it seams simple in my mind. You could forget straps and the rest of the crap blocking your pretty tb's.

Maybe I should stick with my beer expertise for now, just a thought.
 

stangboy

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Ok, I'm no genius, but I'll give it a go.

My idea will involve you building a whole new box over the throttle bodies. What's different inside my brain is that you have a ledge along the top of the box that will keep the glass/plastic from moving up and you make some sort of gasket that seals the glass between the top of the box when boost hits it. The more the boost, the more the glass would seal against the flange.

The metal "flange" area wouldn't give at all.

No huge trick building it, leave one side open to slide the glass in and then seal that side up.

At least it seams simple in my mind. You could forget straps and the rest of the crap blocking your pretty tb's.

Maybe I should stick with my beer expertise for now, just a thought.
I was thinking the same thing but I wasn't about to type all that from my phone. I just got in front of a computer....so I second what Dave said, Mike. :D
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
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You posted 4 mins before midnight and expect a lot of feedback by 08:00 the next morning. You big headed loon, we have lives you know... Can you weld the nuts to the sides of the lid, and then run your straps under the box and bolt them to the sides of the lid, thus keeping them from running over the top of the glass? Would make it prettier. All depends on how thick and strong your lid frame is I suppose.
Then I would've built a frame out of steel that went over the top of the box and held that vacuum tube sealed glass on there. Would've used sealed rivnuts and been done.

I'm no madman....and hardly a fabricator. Just had to add sumptin.
@CarMichael Angelo

Build a picture frame out of 1 1/2" angle iron that snugly fits the airbox. One side of the L faces the glass and the other side faces the side of the airbox.. Drill holes through the angle iron and into the airbox so that you can put screws in it to hold it in place .Rivnuts or aircraft nutplates would be the best choice substitute for welding nuts in place. You may opt to trim the angle iron that secures the glass in place so that it isn't the full 1 1/2" width and allows more of the airbox chamber to be seen.
Ok, I'm no genius, but I'll give it a go.

My idea will involve you building a whole new box over the throttle bodies. What's different inside my brain is that you have a ledge along the top of the box that will keep the glass/plastic from moving up and you make some sort of gasket that seals the glass between the top of the box when boost hits it. The more the boost, the more the glass would seal against the flange.

The metal "flange" area wouldn't give at all.

No huge trick building it, leave one side open to slide the glass in and then seal that side up.

At least it seams simple in my mind. You could forget straps and the rest of the crap blocking your pretty tb's.

Maybe I should stick with my beer expertise for now, just a thought.
How much pressure can that glass take?
I was thinking the same thing but I wasn't about to type all that from my phone. I just got in front of a computer....so I second what Dave said, Mike. :D
I like jrichker's idea. :nice:
Gee guys,...thanks for all of the insightful, and creative ideas and recommendations...ill endeavor to address each of your ideas and/or recommendations in this reply..

I will not "rebuild" the air box. If I have to redo that box, I'll remove the ITBs right along with it. The thing is close to working,...I just gotta trap that glass. I thought about building some sort of reverse mating surface so that boost would pressurize the glass against it, but sliding the glass in from a rear access panel means that I'd have to build a super critical channel that would need to be gasketed on both the positive, and negative sides of that channel...and I do not have the means to build a perfect slot to slide my glass into that would actually have some kind of sealing agent into it. Doing that can be accomplished by either my idea, or a version of Scotts, or Joes.

I have to worry about added height...there isn't any room to add it at the front of the box. MOF, the very front edge is actually touching the underside of the hood now. ( I guess it's play dough time)

I'll build a perimeter frame that can be placed on top of the glass to "cap it" that bolts to the existing box. Gasket goes on first, glass on top of that, existing frame on top of that, capped by this new frame that gets secured to the box. If I have room for it.........ill add the perimeter bolts to allow me to screw down against the top frame to force it against the gasket.

The glass itself can withstand huge pressure ( over 9000 psi) as long as it doesn't get nicked, or twisted too far past its temper point. The frame(s) should ensure against that happening.

If the hood clearance isn't an issue, there'll be 14 small screws pressing down on that intermediate plate on top of the glass.. This should fix my problem there.

Then, it's back to trying to stop the engine from blowing oil out of its blow hole(s).
 

droopie85gt

unmmm.....Your humps look good?
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Maybe it's time to look at OEM electric evac pumps again. Or go 1940's and a road draft tube hanging way out the bottom pointing behind anything you don't want oil on.

:(
 

RangerJoe

I leave the horn on while driving
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I was wondering about the limits of the glass, but if it's really 9000psi, you are definitely fine. I thought the glass may act as a burst panel to protect against backfires or over boosting, lol.

Joe
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
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Because I just can't help myself...the exhaust is back off again. The " high heat" VHT stuff completely failed coming off of the headers at the merge, and on the down pipe immediately out of the turbo.
( you could wipe the flaked off stuff off with your finger)

And because I'm a hard head do it yourself-er, and I want neither to wait, or pay as much as it typically costs to have these pieces coated,...I'm attempting to wrap them instead. And that ain't easy.

It's not that wrapping exhaust is hard,..it's that wrapping these pieces is. ( you'll see if I can get it done,...or end up bailing and having them coated.)

For one thing, they're too ugly to have coated. The wrap will hide all of that ( if I can make it work ). Secondly, I believe that wrap does a better job of controlling heat, and now that the turbo is back in play...this sht is way too hot to not do something.

I've solved the air box problem, and that will be the next thing I do, after I ending up throwing the exhaust pieces across the room..I'm gonna use that super sticky 3m adhesive tape as my gasket. Set the glass against that, put the frame on top of the glass, and build a top frame that bolts to the box, and screws down on the mid frame to apply down force against the gasket.
 

90sickfox

I didn't really have an issue with the stink...
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I've never been a huge fan of wrap. I've had a few friends have issues with rusting and cracking under the wrap... but they were imports, cheap kits, and hardly ever saw a garage.
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
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Monday is punishment day.

I say that because on Monday,..I go down to the garage around 8am, and I stay there till I can barely move. I don't eat, I barely even stop for water, ( which I rarely do), I don't let nothing stop me.

Well....one thing actually stops me,....it's my "you're done for today" red flag.

Pain. I literally stay on track till it hurts too much to continue. In essence I "punish " myself.

I really want this thing back together, especially since it runs, even more so now that boost is back.

Despite the fact that I'm not done, I'm happy with my progress...I won today..the monster had to see things my way.

First thing I dealt with was the hot side...It ain't perfect, it isn't even a good job...but it was all I could do. And when that is the criteria.." All I can do" is all I can do.
IMAG0108_zpsn0shio50.jpg


IMAG0109_zpsanakt7ec.jpg

The merge that feeds the turbo is obscene. Two curved tubes merge into one, with a big ased hole for the waste gate right in the middle, with a weird rectangular end feeding the turbo with a metal tab hanging underneath.
IMAG0111_zpshavfhjut.jpg

I put that tab on the bottom side of that crazy pipe to help take the load off of the exhaust...all it did today was get in the way.

It is what it is I guess...I'm not changing anything till it fails as a result of the wrap holding in too much heat.

The air box commanded the majority of my time however... And let me tell ya.......it's fcked up as a rats ass.

All of the welding required to add the frame has destroyed the paint,...and compromised the body work I did to try and smooth the thing...but I wanted the thing to stop blowing it's lid.

I feel pretty good that this mod will prevent that.
IMAG0110_zpsrwaolehg.jpg

Still not done, but close to being there...I decided to use the existing frame to secure the glass. I added those se tabs, and bolted them to the sides. On the driver side of the box there are 5 studs welded in place. On the passenger side of the box there ar 5 nuts epoxied inside the box to eliminate the need to get a wrench inside to tighten those thing down.

As I've said before, the glass will set in 3m doubled sided tape as a gasket,...there will now be a really thin aluminum frame that will be glued on top of the glass to act as protection, and spread the load for the bolts that will be pressing on the glass to keep it from lifting..
The frame is held in place by 12 bolts/studs that attach to the sides/top end. And through the frame,..12 screws press down against the aluminum that forces the glass against the 3 m gasket..

Brilliance...