Build Thread 1978 Fairmont Futura. The monster becomes a Mercury

droopie85gt

unmmm.....Your humps look good?
Dec 26, 2016
649
442
93
Cordova, TN
Nice video report! I'm glad that for the most part, the Monster behaved himself and got you to and fro successfully! Now with that out of the way and his reliability noted you can start to redo stuff.

:spot:
Called it @ 5:15 yesterday! L Freaking O L.

What are your ring gaps? Blow by is caused by only 3 main things I can think of. Rings are NOT sealing to the cylinder wall. Ring gap is too big. A piston has a fat hole in it. I know there are others...ring gaps lined up. Broken ring land, rocking piston, BigFoot.

There's always the 40's and 50's way of doing it. Road draft tube. It continually undercoats your car too, so it won't rust. BONUS!

:troll:
 
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CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
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Nov 29, 1999
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Gotta say-I did not expect this update lol
Crazy, lol. Just caught up on the trip, and then the engine is out. You are Mad Mike, no way around that. Glad the trip went so well, and you finally realized how cool the Monster is.
I doesn't surprise me.
Could the 60+lbs of oil pressure be contributing to the vapor problem?
OH sweet i get to play with your computer again..... this time i will wear pants whilst tuning your car... :cautious:
And a box on your head too?
only if i can cut holes in it.....otherwise its hard to see the computer screen.....
I can't see oil pressure being a problem.... oil flow... maybe. It would only affect the engine vapor if it's accumulating too much under the valve covers.... meaning the drain back holes aren't big enough.

I wasn't expecting this either.... but it's in my plans with mine. As soon as it's running good it's all coming apart.... well... engine and transmission are coming out.

Edit...stupid phone
You could make two holes in firewall and make them to fit floor pan drain plugs. That would look pretty clean and most would have no idea they were added.
Called it @ 5:15 yesterday! L Freaking O L.

What are your ring gaps? Blow by is caused by only 3 main things I can think of. Rings are NOT sealing to the cylinder wall. Ring gap is too big. A piston has a fat hole in it. I know there are others...ring gaps lined up. Broken ring land, rocking piston, BigFoot.

There's always the 40's and 50's way of doing it. Road draft tube. It continually undercoats your car too, so it won't rust. BONUS!

:troll:
I'll do this as a blanket acknowledgement to all of your comments, and as a " look what I found out" revelation in one fell swoop tonight.

Going backwards.....

Drew.....are you asking me what my ring end gaps are? Let me assure you....they are too tight for a turbocharged application.
( like .020)
I'm getting blow by because I'll almost wager that I've got too much skirt clearance. I think my 2618 alloy pistons are rocking around a lot in the bores. That in turn would mean that either I have a machining issue again, or the skirts were damaged ( collapsed) as a result of the taper that they had in the bores after the initial install.

I'm not taking the noisy bitch apart again, but if I did, ( knowing what I know now) I'd never use either the machine shop that I used, and I'd never use a 2618 alloy again. They have to allow for a lot of expansion with that alloy, and that equates to a noisy, rocking piston. I don't know that I need a piston this serious for this engine.
I also never use a "draft tube" the car is filthy underneath from the transmission as it is,..I'm not gonna add puked out oil to that mix.
So what did you call?
I've decided against cutting up the firewall...I'm probably gonna drop the kmember.

One of the guys I talked to at the show thought that I was throwing too much oil at the cylinder walls as a result of excessive pressure, and that the rings were being overwhelmed as a result..I don't know if that has any merit, but since I plan to reduce the pressure anyway...I guess we'll see.

The oil can't stay in the valve cover...there are enormous holes in the pushrod galley.

As for those that didn't expect to see an empty engine bay...I wrestled mightily against it. At the end of the day, I needed to deal with the leaking transmission,...and one of those leaks is coming from the front pump seal.
My transmission source said that worn bushings are responsible for the tail shaft leak. The driveshaft yoke " wobbles" a little when the clearance is excessive, and causes a gap to form in the sealing surface as a result. That bushing is out and if I can sneak away from work ( which I'll be able to do) I'll get that stuff tomorrow .

I am also wrestling with removing the ITBs and putting the old intake back on again. while they're cool and all, the complexity of not having a common intake plenum almost isn't worth the cool points. I still have the 70 mm TB,..id just need to change out the throttle cable back to whatever I had before ( can't remember )

I know if I keep the ITBs, the glass top is gonna have to go. Right now, Everytime I get into boost, the water meth just coats the underside of the glass..add the condensation moisture that forms after a heat cycle, and it doesn't take long for that glass to get pretty cruddy looking. Add to it that i'm considering almost doubling the boost pressure, and that'll put even more pressure against the glass, and the retention system. The thinking here is: if I'm covering up the ITBs with a solid plate on the box,...what's the point of having the hassle?


And lastly...why is the link to this thread highlighted and blue?
 
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CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
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As a precursor I sent a few questions to Matt Cramer at DIY auto tune in anticipation of upgrading the ecu to Ms3x.
He took an extra day to respond, but when he did, he gave me what I needed.

That behind me I, snuck out of work and went on a shopping spree.:cautious:

First, as stated, I stopped by my local transmission parts supplier, and bought the necessary junk to try and fix my leaky assed trans.
Once done, I booked over to my other haunt ( an electronics parts supplier) and bought a new pencil style soldering iron, and a pair of those mega-dorky, mega-magnifier flip up eye goggles that you see jewelers and computer repair geeks wearing.

( I’m so excited! they work so freaking good...I can even see the fuzz on an ants balls when these things are on.):banana:

I’ve decided to buy a new fiberglass hood. I can either buy a flat hood, or a cowl version ( unlikely) for the Monster stout enough to work with hinges for 615 shipped.. the steel hood is a disaster with the degree of warpage, and the resultant body putty that had to be added to try and level it out. Now that that putty has started to bubble ( either from the heat, or because that’s what happens when you are a hack, and you slather too much body putty on something) fixing that hood seems like a waste of time.

Besides...remember how many pics I posted of me throwing in the towel while I was in the body work stage? I’m all out of throwing towels.

Don’t think that I won’t be trying to add scoops to the flat hood though...I still have a Cyclone vibe to emulate...still gonna try to create this:
https://goo.gl/images/KMG2Qk
I tried that method in steel too, but again with the warpage...I killed a couple of hoods trying to make that look work.

But in glass......I can make it do what I want it to do w/o warpage.
 

droopie85gt

unmmm.....Your humps look good?
Dec 26, 2016
649
442
93
Cordova, TN
I'll do this as a blanket acknowledgement to all of your comments, and as a " look what I found out" revelation in one fell swoop tonight.

Going backwards.....

Drew.....are you asking me what my ring end gaps are? Let me assure you....they are too tight for a turbocharged application.
( like .020)
I'm getting blow by because I'll almost wager that I've got too much skirt clearance. I think my 2618 alloy pistons are rocking around a lot in the bores. That in turn would mean that either I have a machining issue again, or the skirts were damaged ( collapsed) as a result of the taper that they had in the bores after the initial install.

I'm not taking the noisy bitch apart again, but if I did, ( knowing what I know now) I'd never use either the machine shop that I used, and I'd never use a 2618 alloy again. They have to allow for a lot of expansion with that alloy, and that equates to a noisy, rocking piston. I don't know that I need a piston this serious for this engine.
I also never use a "draft tube" the car is filthy underneath from the transmission as it is,..I'm not gonna add puked out oil to that mix.
So what did you call?
Doing over again....or pulling the engine! Not that I expected that level of redoing. I'm watching a new vid of Engine Masters and Frieburger is building a land speed engine with a 347 SBC with a blower. His thought on evac was to leave out debris screens up top and do everything possible to help oil get back in the pan. AND he said he was going to run lines from the valve covers to the pan to equalize the pressure at wot under boost. Never heard of that. I'm watching now...when I get to a point I understand wtf he is talking about, I'll hit post.

Engine Masters Go to about the 8:30 mark where ole Dave is describing his oiling setup. I've never seen vent hoses run from the pan to the valve covers, but the thing makes 1080 ho and needs to do it for over a minute at 7600 rpm at Bonneville, so....
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
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Is this a trick question? Are you giving them away?? Because ANYTHING is better than the busted ass SN seats I have now.
Well I just happen to have a set of Pro Car seats now that I'm not doing anything with....check your mail...maybe we can make a deal.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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4
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chardon, Ohio
Doing over again....or pulling the engine! Not that I expected that level of redoing. I'm watching a new vid of Engine Masters and Frieburger is building a land speed engine with a 347 SBC with a blower. His thought on evac was to leave out debris screens up top and do everything possible to help oil get back in the pan. AND he said he was going to run lines from the valve covers to the pan to equalize the pressure at wot under boost. Never heard of that. I'm watching now...when I get to a point I understand wtf he is talking about, I'll hit post.

Engine Masters Go to about the 8:30 mark where ole Dave is describing his oiling setup. I've never seen vent hoses run from the pan to the valve covers, but the thing makes 1080 ho and needs to do it for over a minute at 7600 rpm at Bonneville, so....
I watched that as well and instantly thought about the monsters issues. Once i thought it through it makes sense to run a hose from near top of oil pan to valve cover to equalize and pressure that may accumulate in the system.
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
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None of that makes sense to me..pressure would continue to build in the crankcase as long as combustion gases were escaping past the rings.
 
Jul 23, 2018
65
4
18
42
chardon, Ohio
None of that makes sense to me..pressure would continue to build in the crankcase as long as combustion gases were escaping past the rings.
True. He said he was doing this to balance the pressures. In my head it seems to make sense. Would higher pressures in the crankcase hinder oil returning to the crankcase and create some foaming as it moved up to the lower pressure top end? I’m no force induction expert so I’m theorizing here.
 

droopie85gt

unmmm.....Your humps look good?
Dec 26, 2016
649
442
93
Cordova, TN
I think it makes sense. Especially with boost, any blow by is really pressurizing the area UNDER the rings...so from the rings to the pan. That causes oil leaks because it's trying to find a way out. So you vent the top edge of the oil pan to the valve covers. You run the vent hose high to keep actual oil out of it when you turn sharp. Then the pressure under the rings can vent without blowing oil out the seals and gaskets. The engine has all kinds of drain holes and such you think between the heads, valley and pan that allow the gases to vent but if the oil is filling up those drain holes there's no room for air to come past.
Either that or you just have some :poo:ty ass pistons. :oops:

My 5.0 when it was running...it's N/A and it mists vapor out of an open valve cover when it's hot. Of course it's a 170k mile short block with just a ball hone and some new rings...so apples to oranges.
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
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Birmingham, al
I think it makes sense. Especially with boost, any blow by is really pressurizing the area UNDER the rings...so from the rings to the pan. That causes oil leaks because it's trying to find a way out. So you vent the top edge of the oil pan to the valve covers. You run the vent hose high to keep actual oil out of it when you turn sharp. Then the pressure under the rings can vent without blowing oil out the seals and gaskets. The engine has all kinds of drain holes and such you think between the heads, valley and pan that allow the gases to vent but if the oil is filling up those drain holes there's no room for air to come past.
Either that or you just have some :poo:ty ass pistons. :oops:

My 5.0 when it was running...it's N/A and it mists vapor out of an open valve cover when it's hot. Of course it's a 170k mile short block with just a ball hone and some new rings...so apples to oranges.
The oil is coming out of every crack on top of the valve cover. It’s being pushed by pressure. The pressure in the valve cover is coming from the crankcase. Adding a hose to the crankcase between the valve cover and the pan does nothing to Alleviate what’s already happening....how can it?
If there is pressure UNDER the rings,..adding a hose from the pan just makes sure that the pressure in the pan is in the valve cover.

So oil can blow out of every crack in the valve cover.

There has to be a vent breather (s) to let it out.
 

RangerJoe

I leave the horn on while driving
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Apr 26, 2010
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I think I have to agree with Mike. Now perhaps doing that will allow pressure to move quicker to the valve cover where you have a breather system available to remove the pressure, but the pressure is only going to find it's way back through the drain holes to the pan again.
I love watching those guys, but a few episodes of the engine masters series left me scratching my head as to their explanations on tech. Can't remember specifics, but seems one of them had to do with their cam comparison episode.

Joe
 

droopie85gt

unmmm.....Your humps look good?
Dec 26, 2016
649
442
93
Cordova, TN
I'm throwing darts at a dartboard here. Maybe it's because water (or oil) swirl the other way down the drain downunder so the head isn't draining here in the northern lands.
:doh:
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
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Ok...I'm spending too much time obsessing over the link hose theory this morning, so I'll enlist the help of the few that look in here. I realize that I post pics of this stuff all the time, but I also don't expect everybody here to be familiar with every detail on my engine..
This is the hole n my head that allows oil to return back into the pan.
IMAG0065_zpsllunormt.jpg

Those giant openings surrounding the ports dump oil back into the lifter galley ..
Which when you look at it....
IMAG0090_zpskj87tf8y.jpg

IMAG0089_zpsdgdrvgy5.jpg

Is full of lifters....right behind that frank-n-plate.
With only a few tiny little holes to allow oil to drain back..
IMAG0091_zpsmj3jw2xd.jpg

So then.....crankcase pressure has to come up through those holes just as the oil is trying to drain back into the pan...id have to imagine that there would be significant oil trying to find its way back into the pan that would be fighting the pressure trying to escape..at the very least, adding the hose will allow the oil to drain, and the pressure to escape in two seperate paths...I will in essence be adding a two lane highway in place of the bi-directional alley that is currently there.

So I'll make this mod.

There are 5 holes in the valve cover...three on top, and two in front right above the sealing flange, with one of them being right over the pushrod galley. ( I believe ill use that one)

I'll take the goofy ass hose system off of it, and reintegrate the breathers I used to have on it.

I'm waiting on another sale spiff to fund on my award card, and I'll buy the fiberglass hood. I think that'll be next month..Theres already 250 there, but there is another 500 pending..I tell ya, this "selling the car" thing has turned out way better than the " telling about the car" thing...
In spades.
I'm waiting on Matt Cramer to tell me where to find the documentation to perform the ecu upgrade...once I get that, I'll pull the MS2 out, and make it into an MS3x. Once complete, I'll have an ecu that will technically be just as if not more capable than just about every aftermarket ecu out there . When the dust settles...ill have about 800.00 in an engine management system that the nearest competitor charges over 2k for .

DIY boys....that's why you do this thing..you learn, you gain experience. You bust your balls, your knuckles, and your back...but when your done you get to say:
Yeah, I did that.
And then this happens :)
 
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