Build Thread 1978 Fairmont : Somethin to talk about..

droopie85gt

Hookers and Beer for life!
Dec 26, 2016
972
821
143
Cordova, TN
I haven't even stripped all the paint in the engine bay and I'm already having voices in my head saying....you know a 4.8 LS is just about free.....a cheap chinee turbo, a cheap ass home built turbo 400, and there's 10's right there. For less than I'll ever think about putting in a 2.3. But where's the fun in the easy way?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Essn95
  • Sponsors(?)


MustangIIMatt

I need something stupid to play with
Mod Dude
Mar 7, 2002
9,241
4,944
224
I'm already having voices in my head saying....you know a 4.8 LS is just about free.....a cheap chinee turbo...
I hear those same voices sometimes.

An LS truck engine even fits into a II with the GTO oil pan surprisingly enough. There ain't no way the Lincoln DOHC is gonna fit without quite a bit cutting and welding, but I can damn-near bolt an LS in. If I had any brains at all I'd be doing an LS or an Ecoboost 2.3 swap.

You, Mike, myself, we're all insane, we just like different kinds of insanity.
 

HotFox

10 Year Member
Jan 5, 2009
932
549
144
41
SE Michigan
1
20210204_144956.jpg

This brilliant idea cost me 65.00. Add a couple of hours chasing fittings and hoses to that.
I had the vacuum ga. in a drawer for years now, so that isn't in the mix. Nobody had bulk 3/8" vacuum hose. After going to all three major A/P stores, I finally travelled downtown to the NAPA main store, and they had it. ( But even then they had to look it up in their catalog) :nonono:
When I get back home, I install the thing, and take the car out to see how it will shift. In reality, I don't need the thing, I have 16-18" of vacuum at idle, I just wanted to take the check valve off of the line that goes to the vacuum modulator to allow for full throttle 3/4 shifts. (pretty stupid in reality,...How many times will I actually be flat footing the thing past third gear?) By putting this thing in between I figured it'd hold vacuum and allow for that to happen.

What actually happened was that the 1/2 shift got soft and sluggish versus the neck snapper that it was before. Evidently, putting vacuum on the modulator reduces line pressure to the trans, and the end result was a mushy 1/2 gear change.

Which left me no choice but to put the trans line back onto the manifold, and reinstall the ck valve to keep the modulator from seeing positive pressure.

The follow up road test confirmed, that I got my great 1/2 shift back.

That leaves me with this pointless thing with the power braker booster now the only thing plumbed to it (well and the derelict vacuum gauge..that is still there too) Something that I didnt need for the sake of the brakes at all.....
*sigh*:dead:
The Other thing I learned while doing this test drive today is that 6000 RPM is gonna be it for this thing. In other words,..revving it past that actually causes the boost to drop, just like it did with the Tiny Wheezer. Except Now with there's a completely different turbo in the mix., the only thing I can definitely say is.......................................that the Lag has returned, Other than that...It might be faster, It might be slower.
I decided that I would take my boost gauge and plumb it directly into the compressor housing Like Work Turbo wanted me to do, and then try and watch the gauge while running the engine up to RPM to see what it tells me for boost....The purpose being to determine if there was boost loss through the intercooler..But....That's a recipe for disaster at full throttle. I could only watch it at lower rpms, and what the gauge said, and what Tuner studio said were one in the same. Now, whether or not that changes at RPM's north of 6000,....:shrug:I'm gonna have to either have #1 ride along to watch that, or hook up the go-pro to do it instead.
I also have added new perks too.....For the first time since I've been beating on this engine,..I'm pretty sure I heard pinging.

I datalogged the outing..If anything, There probably is too much timing, a little too lean,...or Too much boost (car made a high of 23.3 psi) for the gas that's in the car.
As to be expected, Once I get the thing back home I immediately pull the plugs...
20210204_162038.jpg

it looks like 1 and 4 have aluminum specs on them.
All 6 look to be way too hot either from fuel, timing, boost, or all of the above.

So then...This thing isn't going any faster than it presently is. If anything it'll be slower cause one things for damn sure....I'm not hurting this engine.
I've already returned the boost duty back to 40% after having bumped it to 44% in November at the track trying to get the tiny wheezer to go faster than it was. Ironically, I'll probably call Boost Labs and talk to the guy about changing the turbine housing to get rid of the lag, and what it makes, and how it runs after that will just have to be.
2021-02-04_14.58.59.mlg
Yes looks like from what I can tell from here the ground strap on #4 that was deffinently in a slight orange state at one point. That color indicates a tremendous amount of heat seen at the plug tip. #1 from I can see is only showing white so might not be as bad. I would be replacing that number 4 plug for sure.
 

CarMichael Angelo

15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
9,981
8,225
234
63
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
So,..check it..
image.jpg

image.jpg

The waste gate cracks at 12-13,....fully opened at 15 psi. Putting a vacuum on the lower wastegate inlet reveals that it’ll hold 11 psi ....The v band flange is suspect...exhaust was leaking all around the perimeter..
( more than likely a tweak in the fitment that won't let the thing seal properly..)
I’m gonna put the tube onto the wastegate and tighten the flange., and get an expando freeze plug to seal the other end. drill and tap the tube so that I can put a nipple fitting there, pressurize the tube, and see if air leaks past the wastegate.

if it does...it ain’t the fitment. It’s the flange. I’ll just replace the whole damn gate. (500.00) If it’s sealed, it’s the fitment..i gotta rebuild some part of the hotside....( a lot of work).
The lower output flange isnt leaking,..( immediately above) the flange coming off the header isn’t leaking...the inlet is leaking like a bitch..

Ill do the pressure test...and see what’s what on Sunday.
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
10,246
6,369
214
32
Hillsborough county
Mike remember that couple of degrees that turbo dude wanted you to add that I said was sketchy... but added for you anyway... yeah...
Drop one heat range on the plug, pull 2* of timing in boost (I can do this for you) if it is running into det or on the edge that will cause power loss.
Less timing and let the turbo make the power. Stop changing the turbo let look at the timing map, reduced prespool timing will cause it to spool faster and harder. Vvt adjustment may be necessary as well. I want to see your Logs. With water spraying those plugs should not look cooked.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: xecute

CarMichael Angelo

15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
9,981
8,225
234
63
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
Mike remember that couple of degrees that turbo dude wanted you to add that I said was sketchy... but added for you anyway... yeah...
Drop one heat range on the plug, pull 2* of timing in boost (I can do this for you) if it is running into det or on the edge that will cause power loss.
Less timing and let the turbo make the power. Stop changing the turbo let look at the timing map, reduced prespool timing will cause it to spool faster and harder. Vvt adjustment may be necessary as well. I want to see your Logs. With water spraying those plugs should not look cooked.
The DL is posted reply #1305.

I’m not changing anything. The boost Lab dude told me that I had the right turbo,...there’s something else is in the way.
Said that the cams I have are good for 7200, (and the engine will definitely rev clean to 7200) so, not valve float @KZGUNS.
The DL shows that engine making as much as 18 degrees timing at one point, and 16 at another at either high boost or high rpm I dont remember..either way, it’s obviously too much.

I woulda thought that the water meth would’ve sufficed to add the necessary octane and cooling to keep the engine out of any preignition..( but I’d be guessing with all I know about it.)Maybe we should bring in the meth a little sooner,...the log shows a pretty significant aftercoooling effect immediately after lifting,..just thinking out loud here..

*I Stopped in mid update, because an epiphany popped into my head.

Since I have the waste gate off, and a couple of the extra v-band flanges in a drawer like I used to build that goofy s tube, I figured that I’d clamp a flange to the inlet of the wastegate, and just put a flashlight inside the gate, and see if I can see light around the valve seat...

I can see light around the entire perimeter of the seat.
The freaking wastegate isn’t sealing the exhaust at all. The flange isn’t compressing the valve seat. Additionally, it doesn’t matter how tight you tighten the clamp,...the generic v band flange will not sit flat against the wastegate flange..
The entire perimeter of the mating surface is allowing exhaust to leak

So, that starts me to looking,.....There is a specific Turbosmart inlet flange. It’s thicker, and the recess that the seat sits in is shallower ( which will compress the seat up against the valve for a tight fit)

Ever since installing the 2j, I’ve had this combo. That means this problem was there with the “ slow to spool” Chinee turbo, The “ won’t make any power above 5500 rpm” tiny wheezer, and now the “ slow to spool, and won’t make any power above 6100 rpm” current piece...To think that this all may come back to a improper fitting Vband flange almost makes me slap my head....

But I don’t need to...I’ve been slamming it against the wall for the last hour.

I just ordered that flange, a new 2” flex coupler, and a new mild steel 2” j bend...hopefully I’ll have it by Thursday.
 

CarMichael Angelo

15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
9,981
8,225
234
63
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
I haven't even stripped all the paint in the engine bay and I'm already having voices in my head saying....you know a 4.8 LS is just about free.....a cheap chinee turbo, a cheap ass home built turbo 400, and there's 10's right there. For less than I'll ever think about putting in a 2.3. But where's the fun in the easy way?
I think I was saying Like that to you long ago..Bracket racing isn’t about fast,..it’s about slow assed boring consistency, and reaction time. Seems to me you’d be looking at the most sedate combo you could put in the thing..One that doesn’t have a prayer of tire spin..
Just put the 2.3 in it N/A..You’ll be 90% of the way to boring, bracket race town,...the rest of it can be made up with BS electro gadgetry to guarantee you’ll never sleep at the tree. As an added bonus, If it’s truly snail-like, you won’t have to worry about delay boxes, or any thing to worry about handicap, as you’ll always be the guy at halftrack before your opponent gets to leave the line.
 

CarMichael Angelo

15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
9,981
8,225
234
63
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
I hear those same voices sometimes.

An LS truck engine even fits into a II with the GTO oil pan surprisingly enough. There ain't no way the Lincoln DOHC is gonna fit without quite a bit cutting and welding, but I can damn-near bolt an LS in. If I had any brains at all I'd be doing an LS or an Ecoboost 2.3 swap.

You, Mike, myself, we're all insane, we just like different kinds of insanity.
Hey,..speak for yourself...I’ve already caved into conformity..a2jz is the equivalent of an LS in Ricer-Ville.
 

KZGUNS

I can swing up to 11”
Jul 23, 2018
862
499
73
44
chardon, Ohio
I adjusted my water method to come in earlier and it made a big difference in cooling. I noticed if I wasn’t staying in boost like wot with plenty of road it wasn’t cooling well. So quick runs up the road would result in higher overall temps. Bringing it on earlier helped. Obviously you use more but no big deal.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: a91what

CarMichael Angelo

15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
9,981
8,225
234
63
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
Too much time on my hands...
I hope my idea for the Monster plate is unique, and that I’m not warming over something that’s already been done before..but even if it has, it fits the car,I like it,...so I’ll place the order for it Tomorrow.

*Crap...the limit is 7 characters....it figures :shrug:
 
Last edited:

droopie85gt

Hookers and Beer for life!
Dec 26, 2016
972
821
143
Cordova, TN
I think I was saying Like that to you long ago..Bracket racing isn’t about fast,..it’s about slow assed boring consistency, and reaction time. Seems to me you’d be looking at the most sedate combo you could put in the thing..One that doesn’t have a prayer of tire spin..
Just put the 2.3 in it N/A..You’ll be 90% of the way to boring, bracket race town,...the rest of it can be made up with BS electro gadgetry to guarantee you’ll never sleep at the tree. As an added bonus, If it’s truly snail-like, you won’t have to worry about delay boxes, or any thing to worry about handicap, as you’ll always be the guy at halftrack before your opponent gets to leave the line.

I vaguely remember that, but can't quite remember what you were redoing for the 2nd or 4th time, at that time. :stir:

You're clear on your feelings for bracket racing. I look at it differently. Unlike a car show where you have Neanderthals asking the same question over and over while you sit in a lawn chair for hours or walk around and ask other people the same questions they have answered 1000 times, you pay an entry fee and get to have a driving/racing car show every week.

Back in the 90's when I went every week, I met some cool people, saw some awesome cars, and made some friendships I still have to this day. You don't have to worry about killing someone or getting arrested street racing, the entry fee is reasonable, and hey you may at least get your entry fee back and have running the car down the strip.

Are you building your car your way to please someone else? NOPE. I know it's more of the personal challenge. I think I can do this...can I do this...I did this. Then posting on here or taking it to a car show is for the ego. The hey y'all lookie what I done did moment. And come on admit it...the ego swells when someone asks the MILLION dollar question. What kind of engine is that? Dang, do you make all that stuff to put it in there yourself? Damn, bruh, that's awesome!

So I'll admit it...whenever the HeHatesCreamyPeanutButterFalcon is up and running, the first time I put a 69 Camaro on the trailer and the dude and his bruh's come over and look under the hood and go, goatdammit, is that a 4 cylinder? Is that one of dem der Ecoboosts? And I answer, naw, it's a Pinto engine. My head will be so big, it won't fit in my fullfaced XL helmet! And you will know exactly what that feels like!
 

droopie85gt

Hookers and Beer for life!
Dec 26, 2016
972
821
143
Cordova, TN
The DL is posted reply #1305.

I’m not changing anything. The boost Lab dude told me that I had the right turbo,...there’s something else is in the way.
Said that the cams I have are good for 7200, (and the engine will definitely rev clean to 7200) so, not valve float @KZGUNS.
The DL shows that engine making as much as 18 degrees timing at one point, and 16 at another at either high boost or high rpm I dont remember..either way, it’s obviously too much.

I woulda thought that the water meth would’ve sufficed to add the necessary octane and cooling to keep the engine out of any preignition..( but I’d be guessing with all I know about it.)Maybe we should bring in the meth a little sooner,...the log shows a pretty significant aftercoooling effect immediately after lifting,..just thinking out loud here..

*I Stopped in mid update, because an epiphany popped into my head.

Since I have the waste gate off, and a couple of the extra v-band flanges in a drawer like I used to build that goofy s tube, I figured that I’d clamp a flange to the inlet of the wastegate, and just put a flashlight inside the gate, and see if I can see light around the valve seat...

I can see light around the entire perimeter of the seat.
The freaking wastegate isn’t sealing the exhaust at all. The flange isn’t compressing the valve seat. Additionally, it doesn’t matter how tight you tighten the clamp,...the generic v band flange will not sit flat against the wastegate flange..
The entire perimeter of the mating surface is allowing exhaust to leak

So, that starts me to looking,.....There is a specific Turbosmart inlet flange. It’s thicker, and the recess that the seat sits in is shallower ( which will compress the seat up against the valve for a tight fit)

Ever since installing the 2j, I’ve had this combo. That means this problem was there with the “ slow to spool” Chinee turbo, The “ won’t make any power above 5500 rpm” tiny wheezer, and now the “ slow to spool, and won’t make any power above 6100 rpm” current piece...To think that this all may come back to a improper fitting Vband flange almost makes me slap my head....

But I don’t need to...I’ve been slamming it against the wall for the last hour.

I just ordered that flange, a new 2” flex coupler, and a new mild steel 2” j bend...hopefully I’ll have it by Thursday.

Is E85 an option there? In the Memphis area, there are only 2 stations that show up on the E85 website. Both are over 30 miles away from my house. So, E85 may be a race option, but if I put a tag on it, it will have to burn premium.

CD8I8NT​


Fixed for free. When you are not driving you can put it on a chain and wear it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CarMichael Angelo

CarMichael Angelo

15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
9,981
8,225
234
63
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
Is E85 an option there? In the Memphis area, there are only 2 stations that show up on the E85 website. Both are over 30 miles away from my house. So, E85 may be a race option, but if I put a tag on it, it will have to burn premium.

CD8I8NT​


Fixed for free. When you are not driving you can put it on a chain and wear it.
That turns into something about the driver instead of the car..not the desired outcome.
 
  • Dislike
Reactions: droopie85gt

CarMichael Angelo

15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
9,981
8,225
234
63
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
Is E85 an option there? In the Memphis area, there are only 2 stations that show up on the E85 website. Both are over 30 miles away from my house. So, E85 may be a race option, but if I put a tag on it, it will have to burn premium.

CD8I8NT​


Fixed for free. When you are not driving you can put it on a chain and wear it.
E85 is available in very limited places here,..but that is not the direction i’m going either. it’s just as easy to buy a case of octane booster ( which I will probably do) and add a can at each fill up.
 

CarMichael Angelo

15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
9,981
8,225
234
63
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
With this “fix“ to the wastegate, I’m expecting my Eureka moment..Given that the exhaust/boost leak has been there since the 2jz has been in this car, I’m expecting that nothing that has been tuned in will be right anymore.

1. I’m hoping the spool time decreases.
2. I expect that low end torque will increase enough to actually be able to do a dry burnout on these big ass drag radials, ( something that can’t be done now)
3. I am wary of the current duty cycle settings on the ebc, currently at 40% that yields 20# of boost. I expect that that will now go higher at the current duty cycle ( maybe a lot higher).
4. I don’t plan to drop the plugs one heat range, they’re already one step colder than stock. I plan to add octane booster ( Boostane) to the mix. This product is highly reviewed for adding dramatic octane increases w/o harming o2 sensors, ( although it looks like it will turn my plugs orange though ) It comes in a 32 oz bottle for 30.00. I can bring 12 gallons of 93 octane up to 100 octane with 12oz of this stuff, according to the app you can download...( which I have done) So, one can will treat 3 tank fulls...I doubt that I’ll have any pre-ignition at 100 octane.
5. I changed from what I don’t know ( NGK’s plug referencing) to what I do..I’m putting el-cheap o Autolite 3922’s back in, which are the exact same plug that not only crosses over from the NGK, but was the same plug in the old Aussie headed OG monster engine.

It‘ll be a brand new day come Thursday..
 

xecute

Eaten, greased and played with my balls
I'm glad your not CDPNDNT.

Because I've done 7 more twin cam Toyota engines than you, I know that the Autolite 3922 cross over is the standard JY11 Champion Briggs and Stratton 158 CC spark plug that Toyota had relisted for my 4AFE. Swap them in. I used to put my Cologne 2.8 V6 and 4.1 liter Falcon spark plugs in my wife's ITZOLD AE92 Corolla...just to clean them without having to sand blast them. One thing is that Toyotas have a variant of the Autolite 3922...its not an exact interchange, but it will work. My Toyota service guy got real cross when he saw I had some old Champions without the JY11-ii suffix. Toyota NZ and SA requested a design change. See "https://www.tolken.co.za/twincamforum/viewtopic.php?t=6590"