Progress Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone Spoiler..Somebody point me to a wall......I need to bang my head against it.

a91what

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if there are small leaks between the manifold and the turbo then it is plausible that the turbo IS seeing 7psi at the outlet and the manifold is only seeing 5ish. tape off the turbo inlet and feed the manifold smoke to see where the boost is leaking.
 
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CarMichael Angelo

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When the old manifold was on the motor, the combo made boost up to spring pressure. When I lifted, there was always a giant " whoosh" noise escaping from the BOV. Ever since the installation of the ITBs the BOV hasn't really been audible. I'm thinking that something has to be escaping past the ITBs when the throttles close...

I'm telling ya, as cool as the ITBs are, I'll put them aside and swap the old intake back on before I go through too many trials and tribs trying to make power on this thing.
 

xecute

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"Provisional steel plate you can't see through". Then whoop its hiney.

Skyline GTR Turbo's had ITB's. They work better than single TB's with big 60 to 150% of engine size capacities. You've just got to give the instillation what it needs. The lack of 90 degree bends will be cutting down the noise, and improving the efficency, and Steve will see that from the data logs.

Oh, and CMikeA.

I'm such a dumb a$$. When you said
  • Now I know a lot of the 12 that pay attention are not gonna agree and again, that's all right.......
on page 493.

If feel like you directly included me in your bunch of Disciples. You counted the foot warming half wit dog as a whole person. I love you Mike. I'm honored. But if you really knew me, you'd put in 11-1/2 next time...because as every librarian and checkouts teller knows.....11.5 = 12 with Swedish Rounding.

I used to think often of the Swedish Volley ball ladies team, and rounding up when I was young......

Anyway, the reoccurances of 11's on the 11 th of the 11th means that someone leaning over a fence in, say, the 11 th paralle North in Ghana on that day would have had the pailings taken away, and it'll start a border scrimish. Put the 11's back and use 12's, or bump up the boost to 11.5's with Swedish rounding.

Just do IIT!
 
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Davedacarpainter

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"Provisional steel plate you can't see through". Then whoop its hiney.

Skyline GTR Turbo's had ITB's. They work better than single TB's with big 60 to 150% of engine size capacities. You've just got to give the instillation what it needs. The lack of 90 degree bends will be cutting down the noise, and improving the efficency, and Steve will see that from the data logs.

Oh, and CMikeA.

I'm such a dumb a$$. When you said
on page 493.

If feel like you directly included me in your bunch of Disciples. You counted the foot warming half wit dog as a whole person. I love you Mike. I'm honored. But if you really knew me, you'd put in 11-1/2 next time...because as every librarian and checkouts teller knows.....11.5 = 12 with Swedish Rounding.

I used to think often of the Swedish Volley ball ladies team, and rounding up when I was young......

Anyway, the reoccurances of 11's on the 11 th of the 11th means that someone leaning over a fence in, say, the 11 th paralle North in Ghana on that day would have had the pailings taken away, and it'll start a border scrimish. Put the 11's back and use 12's, or bump up the boost to 11.5's with Swedish rounding.

Just do IIT!
I swear to god Dean, you’re killing me.......
 
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xecute

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Reduced plenumb volumes under 60% of the engine capacity work bsst with ITBs. Adding a STB with a bigger plenumb (some are 6 liters on a 4 liter engine)....that makes a bigger mid range hit, but driveabilty suffers. Its all anologous with comparing a quadrauple Weber 351 to the best tuned big vac sec 351. A properly optimised ITB turbo will be progressive with a smaller plenumb.

If you instinctively thing you have no boost because of your intake system, then add another throttle opening to your Glass peep show.

A heavy lift off of throttle after application of steady boost, the glass plate will be taking a huge hit from the diiference of 12 sq inches of throttle butterflys volleying pressure back into the 76 mm entry pipe. The glass plate can be replaced by a blistered part with another 76 mm tube so that boost can be built.

Your ride did burnouts with a leaking ITB system. If you intuitively, instinctively think that the ITB is your problem, then follow your intuition and instinct.

Air has mass and weight. You can progressively bend it by degrees. To find a leak, use unlite butane or propane pressurised to 25 psi without the engine going and a four gas analyser like a confined space worker does in the military. Find the effing leak, and effing take it out. If its not making boost, its a leak.

At polytechnic, my fluids engineer said all compressiable fluids had to have proportional flow drops and flow paths. Large Coffin boxes with one tiny entry point are to be avoided.
 
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CarMichael Angelo

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Ha,...dean wants me to use unlit butane or propane to find a leak....
“Hmmm let me see....hook up this end to pressurized propane....start the gas flowing”...hssssssssssss
Then,...... “Dammit! Dropped the freakin wrench!” Clink! Clank! Clang! Spark!
cDNsX0q_B_wexYsZ5JSUfGC0Dt_rsePjPYsZItKIB13jyih7OQ.jpg


WHOOOM! No more monster, no more CMA, no more Irondale, Al.

Uhh..........no dean.
And with regard to putting another throttle tube on top of the box.....Uhhhhh.....no dean.

That's my intuitive instinct talking.
 
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CarMichael Angelo

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The rational side of my brain says, take off the valve cover, back off all of the intake valves till they’re closed, remove the charge tube from the compressor, and make a plug out of wood that the silicone hose clamp can tighten down on. Pressurize the box through the tube with the same regulated air supply I used to test the waste gate...see what happens.
I don’t expect the thing to hold air..the problem is how to test volume versus pressure..

On the other hand,........( still allowing the rational side of my brain to speak)

I think.........

A large amount of air volume at a certain pressure should find a way to build up despite a leak...the percentage of the leak should be covered up by the mass quantity of air being forced into the opening.
A small supply of air under high pressure will quickly dissipate if the holes the escaping air is leaking from are bigger than, or numerous enough to exceed the size of the hole supplying the pressure.

Maybe I’ll be wasting my time.

Now,.....(rational brain still has the floor)

I know that freakin single tb intake works...It came off the engine as a turbocharged combination, and it worked....Great.
The ITB system started life as a N/A combo. It never had the old system on it, so there is no reference if the intake or the supply is the issue..and it works great.....up to a point.
It needs modification, it needs sealing,.or it needs..........to go.

Irrational brain say” But mike,...the thing looks freakin killer,....isn’t that worth losing the 100 or so horsepower, 7 more lbs of boost is gonna net you ? And besides....what if you do all this sht, and you decide to step it back for the sake of reliability?
How pissed will you be at yourself if you trade that killer six holer for a single,...black funnel shaped, looking thing, and it don’t change a damn thing?

( I’m confused,....I don’t know which side of my brain is talking anymore...this sounds like rat brain, instead of irrat brain.
 

CarMichael Angelo

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Could you blow smoke into the turbo inlet at an idle?
just thinking out loud here.
No,...it takes pressure to make the thing not work beautifully...normally aspirated, it runs perfect. Up to 5 psi,..it runs really good.
It just doesn't amaze me at 5 psi, like I know 11 psi will.
 
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General karthief

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Well then blow smoke in it at 5psi.
something keeps tapping me on the back of the head. I looked and it is not the cats tail as she sits on the back of the couch.
I did go back and look for the sealing tech for the itb to the gila box, it is not in the index that I could find, seems that was a point of contention if I remember, and the tapping on the back of my head may be reminding me that I was thinking at the time 'how is that gonna seal in boost pressure?
Or I am rambling on like I usually do spewing nonsense and giving myself a headache?
 

Davedacarpainter

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Ha,...dean wants me to use unlit butane or propane to find a leak....
“Hmmm let me see....hook up this end to pressurized propane....start the gas flowing”...hssssssssssss
Then,...... “Dammit! Dropped the freakin wrench!” Clink! Clank! Clang! Spark!
cDNsX0q_B_wexYsZ5JSUfGC0Dt_rsePjPYsZItKIB13jyih7OQ.jpg


WHOOOM! No more monster, no more CMA, no more Irondale, Al.

Uhh..........no dean.
And with regard to putting another throttle tube on top of the box.....Uhhhhh.....no dean.

That's my intuitive instinct talking.
Pssy
 
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xecute

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Nope; you are lucid.

But the truck you drive should have a non return valve and the Cfm from a big paint sprayer compressor can make enough pressure...like 25 psi. Fill and force. Volitile compounds will show up as leaks in a four gas anlyser. Find the leak. Do it with unlit propane or butane. You could even use a 5 gallon propane bottle and boil it into the intake tract and be done with any compressor to presurize.
 

CarMichael Angelo

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Ok,....stupid test 101.

I did what I said I was gonna do. I removed the valve cover, and backed off the intake valves. I made a 2.5" round plug out of a 2x4 and put a fitting in it. I pressurized the charge tube.....
Air went in, and air came back out. The gauge never moved a fraction of an inch. Part of the problem is that I'm using a blow by tester set that has a . 040" hole in it to restrict air flow...so I'm thinking that I'm gonna have to adapt a few things so I'll move a greater volume of air into the plenum..
I have no clue where the air is escaping,...I get a small spray bottle, fill it with soapy water,..spray the box, spray the bases of the ITBs that I can get to...
No bubbles.

I feel around to see if I could actually feel air movement around the throttle bodies...I can. In the center of the whole menagerie you can feel air...as slow as this whole experiment is going,..and I'm feeling air.

( you're not supposed to feel air)

So,.....knowing if I was to revise the air supply source to supply a larger volume of air, I'd feel it even more profusely I decided to pull the box off and seal it with some black goop. The black goop being some right stuff that I had a tube of, that I had to dig and poke, and dig and poke until I got all of the dried up goop out of the end of the tube.

But I manage.

I apply beads around the inside of each of the sleeves that slide over the throttle bodies and smoosh the thing on top and it blobs out around the tops of each throttle body.

Which forces me to remove the glass top so that I can clean that mess up.
20190710_211515_zps4ttqc68m.jpg


So........I'm gonna let it dry. I'm gonna clean up and reseal the glass top. Then I'm gonna adapt the pressure regulator so that there'll be a much larger hole blowing air into the induction system again...and the thing better build up pressure..
Or it'll swap places with the black intake that's hanging on a hook.
 

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