• Sponsors (?)

RangerJoe

I leave the horn on while driving
5 Year Member
Apr 26, 2010
2,586
1,154
174
Georgia
Mike, I would not think the piston would be the issue. The rings should do the sealing, and as long as the piston side wall clearance is in spec, there should be no issues with blow by from a piston alone. Or am I missing something?

Joe
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
10,687
11,133
234
61
Birmingham, al
Mike, I would not think the piston would be the issue. The rings should do the sealing, and as long as the piston side wall clearance is in spec, there should be no issues with blow by from a piston alone. Or am I missing something?

Joe
The 2618alloy piston by design requires a lot of sidewall clearance. In the first engine the machine shop didn't bore the cylinders correctly, and there was a lot of taper, and the piston skirts showed it. Although they resleeved the engine, the Pistons weren't checked for damage as a result. So,..despite the fact I put new rings in it that were gapped for a N/A engine, the skirts may have collapsed slightly, and the Pistons are rocking too much.

At least that's what I'm thinking.
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
10,687
11,133
234
61
Birmingham, al
I underestimated how long it was gonna take to wire up what I thought was simple sht. I forgot that I hadn't wired the supplemental cooling circuit for the AC condenser. And that took several hours. When it came time to install the engine, I put it in with the trans bolted on. The engine is so close to the firewall, the transmission bell housing is jammed against it. Bottom line, you can't put it in seperate.

The problem with putting that thing in as a complete assembly was its length. And the radiator saddle had to go to make it fit. And the problem with that was that there was passenger side lighting wiring running inside the upper saddle.

So I cut through the wires when I cut through the saddle.

I created a fan trigger wire off of the AC compressor circuit. I added a 30amp fuse, a 30 amp relay and tagged the alternator to supply the big current. That's done. The headlight wiring had to have a socket spliced in so I could remove the upper saddle when I needed to.

And that stuff took the 4 hours that I had today.

But, I'm happy with the progress...I have headlights for the first time in 6 months.
20190310_180018_zpscxoddkq4.jpg

These aren't the headlights, these Chinee Junkers have a tube that runs inside the light housing that's supposed to work like angel eyes......Not even close. ( The camera also doesn't accurately show how these things look in person) for me it's a " Meh".

I tested the fans on the condenser...the cat ran out of basement as soon as he felt the pressure drop...* No animals were injured during the testing of these products. What he doesn't know is that I added another fan to the radiator..
20190310_180607_zpsfgywildr.jpg

Behold the Cat Shredder Max....since I cant get a shroud on this thing,.ill cover every inch with a spinning blade instead.

What was left in the day was dedicated to starting the process of sanding down the oil cooler shroud...I have to have those coolers mounted before I can ever hope to drive it, so this has got to happen.
20190310_173121_zpssewkdmmi.jpg

This thing has about 15 gallons of paint on it,...the paint chips were deep, I've got more work to do.
Tuesday is supposed to be a good day...( like 70 degrees). if I can manage to actually have the damn day off, I may consider trying to put color on the thing if I get that far.
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
10,687
11,133
234
61
Birmingham, al
With all of the threads popping up about ecu upgrades, I think to myself, "maybe I'll look into this a little more,...maybe I'll write Cramer an email listing my concerns,..maybe I'll go downstairs, and open that box from DIY Autotune, and see what's in it.".........

So I did.

  1. Sequential fuel injection looks like it's gonna require a cam sensor so that the ecu will know what cylinder to fuel....( I have no way to "easily" add that...Every other engine only needs a duraspark distributor with a its sensor intact to solve that problem....I don't think I can even get a distributor to fit under the ITBs, regardless of how much I hack it up, and since a 250 I-6 never came factory with EDIS, there is no little pluggy dude to put in the distributor hole to serve that purpose. Lastly,..and even if I can........Billet roller cams require Bronze distributor gears( which I just happen to have...somewhere) But if I wanted to use a self-destructing bronze gear, I woulda done that years ago before I paid 800.00 for an external oil pump.))
  2. It "looks" like I'm gonna have to use a different trigger wheel if I even think of converting over to a COP style ignition.That reason alone would be the death nail for that conversion. If I can use a 36-1 toothed wheel to do this, the coil mounting clutter becomes the next issue, because I'd try to mount them as close to the plug as possible. I see no reason to do a COP/CNP if the coils are the same distance away as the current, perfectly working EDIS coil pack is now.
  3. I'd also want to potentially get rid of the FIDLE valve, and convert the thing over to a ford IAC valve for idle control. The current idle air valve opens like it should, but doesn't provide enough of a "vacuum leak" to provide much of a rpm jump, especially now since there are 6 throttle bodies in the mix. Cramer says that the MS3x upgrade would probably restore the fully functional IAC 1,2, of which the one I currently have is dead,....or conversely, I can just add a second idle air valve to let more air in when triggered.
  4. The "pie in the sky" optimist in me said that traction control, progressive boost control, progressive water meth injection, idle air control-tied to my AC compressor on/off status, cooling fan control based on speed, and individual timing, and sequential fuel control were all the "pro's" for buying this thing, so back in October plopped down 400 bucks and bought the upgrade.
  5. The conversion is dead easy it looks like. No soldering involved, the relay board is still used, the stuff just plugs into the main board, and it looks like the current ITB tune can be loaded directly. The case is way bigger, and I didn't ask about the Bluetooth adapter, but considering points 1, and 2 aren't gonna happen, and all the other stuff would be "neat", but probably not necessary,....... I keep asking myself why then would I do this?
Anybody wanna buy a ms3x upgrade?
 
Mar 9, 2019
10
5
13
43
Shakopee, MN
Hey Mike!
Good to see you're still at it perfecting this beauty. And that it doesn't have an LS yet. :D I missed your story telling and creativity! And apparently, a couple hundred pages, haha!

Wow, traction control?!
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
7,643
4,383
204
30
Hillsborough county
With all of the threads popping up about ecu upgrades, I think to myself, "maybe I'll look into this a little more,...maybe I'll write Cramer an email listing my concerns,..maybe I'll go downstairs, and open that box from DIY Autotune, and see what's in it.".........

So I did.

  1. Sequential fuel injection looks like it's gonna require a cam sensor so that the ecu will know what cylinder to fuel....( I have no way to "easily" add that...Every other engine only needs a duraspark distributor with a its sensor intact to solve that problem....I don't think I can even get a distributor to fit under the ITBs, regardless of how much I hack it up, and since a 250 I-6 never came factory with EDIS, there is no little pluggy dude to put in the distributor hole to serve that purpose. Lastly,..and even if I can........Billet roller cams require Bronze distributor gears( which I just happen to have...somewhere) But if I wanted to use a self-destructing bronze gear, I woulda done that years ago before I paid 800.00 for an external oil pump.))
  2. It "looks" like I'm gonna have to use a different trigger wheel if I even think of converting over to a COP style ignition.That reason alone would be the death nail for that conversion. If I can use a 36-1 toothed wheel to do this, the coil mounting clutter becomes the next issue, because I'd try to mount them as close to the plug as possible. I see no reason to do a COP/CNP if the coils are the same distance away as the current, perfectly working EDIS coil pack is now.
  3. I'd also want to potentially get rid of the FIDLE valve, and convert the thing over to a ford IAC valve for idle control. The current idle air valve opens like it should, but doesn't provide enough of a "vacuum leak" to provide much of a rpm jump, especially now since there are 6 throttle bodies in the mix. Cramer says that the MS3x upgrade would probably restore the fully functional IAC 1,2, of which the one I currently have is dead,....or conversely, I can just add a second idle air valve to let more air in when triggered.
  4. The "pie in the sky" optimist in me said that traction control, progressive boost control, progressive water meth injection, idle air control-tied to my AC compressor on/off status, cooling fan control based on speed, and individual timing, and sequential fuel control were all the "pro's" for buying this thing, so back in October plopped down 400 bucks and bought the upgrade.
  5. The conversion is dead easy it looks like. No soldering involved, the relay board is still used, the stuff just plugs into the main board, and it looks like the current ITB tune can be loaded directly. The case is way bigger, and I didn't ask about the Bluetooth adapter, but considering points 1, and 2 aren't gonna happen, and all the other stuff would be "neat", but probably not necessary,....... I keep asking myself why then would I do this?
Anybody wanna buy a ms3x upgrade?
#1 you can run semi sequential with no changes to your current setup, and without the install of any type of sensor that gives a cam position. Thats what i use, I fire the injectors twice once at a valve that is opening and once on the closed valve at the exhaust stroke. This will improve idle regardless of how you do it.
The ignition will still be Wasted Spark and work just like the EDIS does now, except that you will get to use any type of logic coil you want rather than be limited to the EDIS coils. you will also get the benefit of a true spark cut and full control of the timing now that the EDIS module is not controlling the coils.

#2 the 36-1 tooth wheel is exactly what i use, I used the 36-1 wheel and the EDIS sensor and tied them into the MS system. so your set there no need to change them at all.

When you have all this stuff flying around in your head call me man i can explain it easy over the phone.
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
7,643
4,383
204
30
Hillsborough county
Thinking out loud here.... the cam sensor will only get a signal once in its cycle this tells the ECU the #1 clyinder timing so it can time the injectors based on the crank signal, the cam signal can be a crude single window signal OR single tooth wheel if you will.
MS3 manual MS3X ver 3.57 ---- 5.2.14 For the specifics and look at 6.7.6 for the single tooth cam sensor requirement...
6.9.6 for setting up the 36-1 wheel in MS3 without EDIS

6.9.8 This covers what i envision your install setup to be like..... Now doing it this way will allow you to use a fuel eccentric on the cam if possible and add a cam sensor into the side of the timing cover so it can read the eccentric. I would need to know if this is feasable with your setup as i am unfamiliar with your engine. please provide feedback and pictures.

oh a link to the manual i am referencing
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3XV357_Hardware-1.5.pdf/MS3XV357_Hardware-1.5.html
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
10,687
11,133
234
61
Birmingham, al
Man am I dead.

After writing the update/plan for the day, and taking the wife to the airport, I went back home and got to it. ( probably actually started on the car at about 11:00 AM.)

I installed the fuel rail, plugged in the injectors, wired everything back that could be wired, and installed the valve cover.

I replaced the taller Mr.Gasket valve cover breathers with some shorter units. I also added baffled grommets under the new breathers. The sewer pipe looking thing is the direct vent to the oil pan..I've made it a little convoluted on purpose to make it harder for wet oil to find its way into the valve cover. Whether or not that makes a R'sRBH of a difference.....I got no clue.
20190312_195349_zps860xekoa.jpg

Guess we'll have to wait-N-see.:spot:

Actually, I worked on the oil cooler shroud, and the splitter pieces as my primary focus,....while I was waiting on paint to dry, I did this other stuff. Once I got the oil cooler shroud to my 80% "good enough" standard, I painted it.

20190312_163654_zpsac771oyb.jpg


With the pre-filled Competition Orange rattle can I bought last week. But using it proves to be a little problematic.

The problem was two fold however,..one was an immediate concern, the other will play out over time. The immediate problem was that there wasn't gonna be enough paint to paint the splitter "wings" in addition to the shroud itself. This stuff is enamel, and it cannot be top coated once it starts to dry,...so......I had to go and get another can if I hoped to get all of this crap painted today.

It was 4:30, the store closed at 5:00, and I was 1/2 hour away. I called them, put the paint on my debit card, and flew downtown in my oversized golf cart.
2018_BMW_i3_2.jpg

:spot:
And once I got back, I painted the splitter wings.
20190312_185811_zpsv9yzp6wt.jpg

The other part of the problem is that enamel isn't very durable. It's soft. And having that stuff right up front in bug gut town will probably show it in short order...it's also slightly orange peely..not bad, and it's certainly not gonna cause me any loss of sleep...I'm just glad it's done so I can put the front end back together.

In hindsight, I'm surprised that I never came up with a "Gila" themed name for the shroud and splitter....it's so unlike me.
 

90sickfox

I didn't really have an issue with the stink...
SN Certified Technician
Mar 2, 2015
4,091
3,411
183
41
Since the cam sensor is 2;1 ratio with the crank couldn't you put another gap 180° from tdc and have the crank sensor ignore every other pulse...and have the "cam " sensor read both gaps ? Or is that beyond ms3 ?
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
7,643
4,383
204
30
Hillsborough county
Since the cam sensor is 2;1 ratio with the crank couldn't you put another gap 180° from tdc and have the crank sensor ignore every other pulse...and have the "cam " sensor read both gaps ? Or is that beyond ms3 ?
ok lets say we do that, how does the ecu know which missing tooth to skip??
 

jrichker

StangNet's favorite TOOL
SN Certified Technician
Mar 10, 2000
26,588
2,379
224
73
Dublin GA
ok lets say we do that, how does the ecu know which missing tooth to skip??
Here's where my computer & electronics background comes into play...

It measures the timing interval between each pulse coming from the sensor and then compares them to each other. When it doesn't see a pulse from the sensor, it checks to see if the next pulse is 2 times the time interval of a normal pulse.

If it is, then that was the missing tooth that marks TDC or whatever event the computer uses a a reference point.
 
Last edited:
Aug 25, 2017
267
152
53
49
hmm... :chinthat sounds like a viable option, i will have to scour the software and manual
Here's where my computer & electronics background comes into play...

It measures the timing interval between each pulse coming from the sensor and then compares them to each other. When it doesn't see a pulse from the sensor, it checks to see if the next pulse is 2 times the time interval of a normal pulse.

If it is, then that was the missing tooth that marks TDC or whatever event the computer uses a a reference point.
Nice, and ya'll expected yet another Power Spectural Density rant again. To ensure JR never has to suffer vertigo from our inabilty to listen to his lucid communication, I'll give you this visual info to elaborate:-

EECIV was devised to track and trace reference voltage input as analogue to digital

From another sage like JR above, this is from a dude from Indiana ripped frkm FordSix. Its got the same economy of words that J.R. has, gained no doubt by years of experience being " kludged" by the nesecitiy of actually knowing by experience how things work.
pmuller9 said:
The PIP signal from the stock Ford distributor carries both the Crank signal and the Cam Sync signal.
One of the 6 window vanes is narrow so that all of the square wave leading edges have the same interval for the crank signal but one of the trailing edges is 30% different marking cylinder#1 for the Cam Sync signal.

[image]https://www.dropbox.com/s/dx36ndsekvoqkuy/PIP amature.gif?raw=1[/image]

Some of the aftermarket EFI systems are able to decode the Ford PIP signal directly for sequential use.

If you use a more accurate crank trigger wheel then you can remove all the window vanes but one in the stock distributor and use the single pulse as the Cam Sync signal.
 
Last edited:

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
7,643
4,383
204
30
Hillsborough county
Nice, and ya'll expected yet another Power Spectural Density rant again. To ensure JR never has to suffer vertigo from our inabilty to listen to his lucid communication, I'll give you this visual info to elaborate:-

EECIV was devised to track and trace reference voltage input as analogue to digital

From another sage like JR above, this is from a dude from Indiana ripped frkm FordSix. Its got the same economy of words that J.R. has, gained no doubt by years of experience being " kludged" by the nesecitiy of actually knowing by experience how things work.
Ditto, however to gain all inputs from just a crank signal is not feasible for #1 recognition. If this were just a cam sensor I could make it happen.
Adding even a single whatever cam signal at half speed from crank will suffice no matter the shape. Fuel eccentric, cam lobe whatever. What's the timing cover look like Mike?
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
10,687
11,133
234
61
Birmingham, al
You feel it? It's the "whump-whump-whump" sensation you feel when the car has run off the tracks,..and now the wheels are lumping along....hitting every railroad tie along the way....If I can't make a cam signal trigger work w/o majorly reinventing the wheel,...

sht ain't happenin.

Meanwhile,...back on track.......I had to work today. But when I got home,...I fitted the oil coolers back into the shroud.
image.jpeg

image.jpeg

The one on the right is the engine oil cooler, and I determined it to be leaking over this tear down. It was one of the first things I bought as a replacement.
Problem with that is,...it was too small....fully one horizontal row too short.
So,..what you're looking at is the potentially leaky original gangster....both it, and it's twin brother now tied back in with Mike-O-magic zip ties...holding those two boys as snugly in place as a size 32" pair of tightly whiteys on a 34"waist.

I looked at the thing after finding out that the one that I've had now is too short.......I tried to see where it might be leaking....thinking that I may not have tightened the fittings enough.

.Wouldn't that be a btch.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads