Electrical 1999 3.8 v6 HELP!! Crank no start odometer reads “———“ radiator fans on, theft light flashing rapidly

Stealth TT

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Mar 23, 2018
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MIchigan
So I bought this mustang a year ago for my gf as a daily driver. It ran fine and I had no issues. Once winter came around the car wouldn’t start after a cold day (I live in Michigan where it was getting to 0 degrees.) so I figured it needed a new battery considering it would start and run after a jump which I then got a battery well above the cold cranking amps this car needed. When it was warm and summery weather the car had no hesiststion starting. Long story short it wasn’t being driven anymore, the weather got colder again and sat for 2 weeks where it had trouble starting, it would start after several attempts, again getting to the point where it needed to be jumped. After moving it into my driveway and after a spirited drive I shut it off and went to start it again after about 15 seconds. It’s ran really rough, low rpms and shaking so I shut it off after 10 seconds of that and it’s hasn’t been started in 6 months. I’ve replaced spark plugs, wires, fuel filter and fuel pump. I replaced the plugs wires and filter and had no issues but still no start, low and behold I was not hearing the fuel pump prime anymore, so I tested for power/voltage to the pump via the connector at the rear of the car above the tank. I Indeed had power but when I checked it, and would turn the key to the on position my dash would read “————“ the radiator fans would turn on and the theft light is flashing rapidly. Leaving the key in for 30 seconds makes the theft light blink much slower. I’ve triple checked all fuses and all relays (even switching them all around with similar amp ones) and still no luck. I’ve read that it seems to be a pcm issue but am having no luck. Any help and suggestions would help, I’ve charged the battery to full and will be cleaning the terminals, checking for power at the fuel pump again and at the pcm. I did read someone saying to hold the trip/reset button down when turning the key to on position, and when I do that the odometer reads “test” and allows me to go through a bunch of options and codes I don’t understand. I’ve also tried resetting the pcm via disconnecting the battery but no luck.
 
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I replaced the plugs wires and filter and had no issues but still no start, low and behold I was not hearing the fuel pump prime anymore, so I tested for power/voltage to the pump via the connector at the rear of the car above the tank. I Indeed had power but when I checked it, and would turn the key to the on position my dash would read “————“ the radiator fans would turn on and the theft light is flashing rapidly.
For the 1999-2004 model year Mustang there are several "possible" causes for this condition. For example:
  • Bad CCRM
  • Bad ignition switch
  • blown fuse
  • bad ground (CCRM and/or PCM)
  • other wiring fault.
  • Bad PCM
To correctly trouble shoot this issue some key electrical test can give focus to the repair.

Double check the battery, battery terminals, and the grounds around the radiator core support.

Test for key on power in and out of fuse F2.34, F2.2, and F2.8. Use a KNOWN good ground. Where to go next depends upon the specific results.

In general. Assuming all fuses have been confirmed good, If no key on power into fuse F2.34 suspect a bad ignition switch.

IF no key on power in fuse F2.2 and F2.8 suspect a CCRM related "issue" (either bad CCRM or bad CCRM ground).

If the dash started displaying all dashes ("----") after you probed the rear connection you have to be open to the possibility that during probing the connection that there's a blown fuse or the PCM was "hurt" by stray voltage.

1999-2004 MY fuse panel schedule:
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/foru...r-swap-wont-fire-please-help.html#post2669271

Howto perform charging system voltage drop test
https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-fo...perform-charging-system-voltage-drop-test.56/

1996+ Crank with no start check list
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/4-6l-tech/336452-1997-mustang-wont-ignite.html#2984838

On the "crank with no start check list note the part about the PCM/CCRM ground wire that goes around the battery and is sometimes disconnected during a battery install.
 
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Alright so I’ve checked and cleaned all grounds around radiator core support. Cleaned and checked all connections to battery, and I test lighted all fuses under hood and dash, every one checked out good except fuse #35 and #37 under the dash. I didn’t test #37 while dimming the lights so I’ll do that tomorrow to ensure I’m getting power to it. I replaced #35 fuse with 3 different good ones and still no power, tested with key on and key off. I’m assuming with this information I need to check for power going to pcm, check for power to ccrm and check the pcm relay on the ccrm. I also checked for power at the fuel pump at the back of the car and I am indeed getting power but no fuel pump prime. Could the pcm stop the fuel pump from priming? Any input would be appreciated. I plan on taking a look at the ccrm and the pcm relay tomorrow.
 
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For the purpose of the trouble shooting THIS problem the fuses that matter are F2.34, F2,2, and F2.8. The ignition switch in the run position supplies power to fuse F2.34.

Fuse F2.34 activates the pilot duty circuit of the CCRM.

This in turn powers up fuses F2.2 and F2.8.

Soooooooooooo. IF fuse F2.34, F2.2, and F2.8 all have confirmed key on power in and out THEN this proves:
  • The ignition switch is good
  • the CCRM is good
  • The CCRM ground is good.
Under these circumstances that leaves:
  • Bad PCM ground
  • bad PCM
  • Bad cluster.
  • other wring fault
Again IF this problem (cluster displaying all dashes) after connectors were probed and no other problems to explain why the PCM isn't powering up, then the prospect of of bad PCM needs to be considered.

Other signs of a non powered PCM (or bad PCM) are the cooling fan running all the time. Other signs are a lack of communication from an ODB2 reader/scanner. As well as a constant theft light.

Because changing a PCM often creates as many problems as it solves I would always CONFIRM all of the grounds at the PCM before even thinking about replacing the PCM. The ground wires are black or black with a white stripe.

FWIW, Fuse F2.35 is part of the automatic shift interlock and will only have power when the brake pedal is depressed.
 
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Thank you for all your help so far, alright I’m working on the car again and will be testing fuses 2 8 and 34 again for power with key on and off (besides 34 where it needs key on). I will also be double checking my ccrm for the pcm relay to ensure that’s good, and lastly be checking for power at the pcm. I have found 3 grounds around the radiator core support 2 on the driver side and 1 on the passenger side. Is there any more grounds I need to be aware of? I did notice something was grounded right below the pcm (I already have it isolated and ready to be tested/taken out if need be). Also would the pcm tell the fuel pump not to prime? I hate knowing I had power before and still have power there now with a brand new fuel pump and still no prime. Thanks for all the help and feedback.
 
Also would the pcm tell the fuel pump not to prime? I hate knowing I had power before and still have power there now with a brand new fuel pump and still no prime.
The PCM is in control of the fuel pump via the FPDM. So IF the PCM is dead (or not powering up), then it would be expected for the fuel pump not to prime.

Note. The it's best to test for fuel pump power at the trunk mounted IFS cut off switch. There must be key on +12 volt power the entire time the key is on at the trunk mounted IFS switch.
 
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Okay i finally was able to work on the car today, i took apart the fenders plastic cover and revealed the ccrm. I unplugged it and check for power with the key on car off and got power at prongs 3,4,8,10,11,13, and 21. I got no power to any others. I also found it difficult to find a diagram to match my own, I am missing prongs 6,7,9,17,19,20. I am going to quadruple check for power at all fuses. I also was able to get to the pcm today and cleaned the ground right below it. I’ll have to take it out next here and test for power going to the pcm. Btw I also noticed when I unplugged the ccrm and turned the key on the radiator fans wouldn’t turn on but all other symptoms appeared.
 
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Btw I also noticed when I unplugged the ccrm and turned the key on the radiator fans wouldn’t turn on but all other symptoms appeared.
Note. The CCRM is really a relay that controls power to:
  • PCM
  • Fuel pump
  • cooling fan
  • AC clutch
So it would be expected that any device powered via the CCRM would stop working once the CCRM has been removed.

As a reminder. The fact there is key on power in fuse F2.2 and F2.8 "proves" that the CCRM is working.

To check power at the PCM Red wires (#71, #97) and ground (black wires and black wires with white strip).

Be sure to check the ground's ability to carry heavy currents (voltage drop).
 
Okay so I tried to test for power at the pcm plug and couldn’t get my test light in the little holes. I also opened the pcm and inspected for damage and there was none. I checked my fuses again and nothing has changed. I’ve heard you can send in your pcm and have it checked to see if it’s bad? Does anyone know where I could do that? Also a buddy of mine has an 04 Mustang v6 auto that’s totaled, would that pcm would in my 1999 v6 auto? Also where would I find someone to program it or do I just take it to the dealer? Would I need new keys if the pcm gets reprogrammed? Thanks. This car has me stumped
 
Consider back probing the PCM connector with a very small "T" pin.

IF what you are trying to answer the basic question is "is my PCM bad"? Then it's possible to get some information from an un-programmed PCM. How?

Consider:
  • current PCM will not communicate with an ODB2 scanner.
  • However a compatible un-programmed PCM will communicate in the same car with a ODB2 reader/scanner.
What does this prove? It proves that there's not an external issue causing the PCM to not work.

But.will a 2004 PCM work in a 1999? I don't know. Will it hurt anything? I'm not sure but I believe the odds are that it won't.

So If you use the 2004 PCM (only change made) and then it WILL talk to the ODB2 reader then IMO it almost "proves" the 1999 PCM is bad.

Note, I can tell you that using a 2001+ PCM in a 1999-2000 model year will cause the AC to stop working. But remember for this test we are only interested in seeing if the PCM will communicate with the ODB2 reader.

More information on an affordable full featured ODB2 scanner and a possible DIY PATS re-programming option.

ForScan ODB2 scanner w ELM327 USB
https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/resources/forscan-odb2-scanner-w-elm327-usb.57/
 
Alright thank you for all your knowledge and your help, so based on the info we have gathered we are probably looking at a bad pcm. Now my options are getting another pcm (junk yard, unprogrammed referbished, or a partially programmed pcm) correct? I mean if I can get the 2004 pcm for free I’ll just try that. Unfortunely I don’t have a OBD2 so I’ll try to get one so I can use it for the future but if not it’s looking like I’m just gonna have to replace the pcm. Would you happen to know of anyone who can test my pcm if it’s truely bad? Any reputable places to get a refurbished pcm? Or do you think going with the dealer is the best option? Also if I were to get an unprogrammed pcm would I have to get a new set of keys to work with the car? Thanks again.
 
Update, I just replaced the pcm with a new one from advanced auto parts, car still won’t start! They told me they could flash the basic oem map, vin, and milage but it would require additional flashing (Came with a sticker that said it would need flashing for pats calibration, tire size, axel ratio, cruise control options, etc) If I leave the key in the ignition in the on position for a minute the theft light will go from solid on to blinking twice every 2 seconds and then flashing 3 times and then not flashing at all for 4 seconds but then back to repeating flashing to 2 seconds, then 3 etc... after doing that cycle for about 2 minutes the theft light is off completely. Cranks but no start. My dash now reads the milage and the radiator fans do not turn on, I can smell gasoline as I try to crank it. Because theft light is currently solid when I turn the key to the on position, it leads me to believe the anti theft system is not allowing me to start the car, but is odd when it goes out completely and still no start... any insight on what I should do would be helpful!
 
Think about it for a moment. PATS works by with holding the fuel injector pulse. Soooooooo IF PATS is tripped then why are you smelling fuel?

If this were my car I would want to know if the injectors are pulsing. This can be confirmed with a "noid" style tester.

It would also be handy to know if there's spark.

Do you have an ODB2 scanner? Having access to operational PID's could take a bunch of guess work out.
 
Hm. Well I was getting spark before I changed the pcm, should I check again? I don’t hear my brand new fuel pump engaging.. I’ve checked all my fuses and have check for correct fuel pressure at the fuel rail. I can only suspect crankshaft position sensor at this point?

Edit: no I do not have a obd2 reader
 
Regarding the theory about a bad CKP sensor. Think about it. IF the CKP sensor is bad/faulty then there's NO spark, no injector pulse. So we are back to the question "why do you smell fuel"? But why guess? Test! Go back to the "crank with no start check list" given earlier in this thread. Does the check engine light go out during cranking? IF so then the PCM is getting some signal from the CKP.

How can there be fuel IF the fuel pump isn't running? It doesn't make sense. The fuel pump has to be doing the initial prime if there's fuel pressure. OBTW, you are aware that after the fuel pump initial prime that the fuel pump is turned off until the motor actually starts right?

Let's say for argument sake that PATS has been tripped. If so, then there should be no injector pulse, But we are still smelling fuel. So what does that mean? It has to mean there's a leak somewhere in the fuel system. Possibly an important clue.

It seems to me that there's a ton of assumptions being made that may not be true. It seems to me that after replacing the PCM it's necessary to restart the entire trouble shooting process from the top. Assume nothing.

IMO if you insist on doing this high level of trouble shooting without the benefit of an ODB2 scanner you are going to have to work much harder to do the component testing to have a reasonable chance to fix this. Clearly progress has been made. The cluster displaying the mileage means there's some communication going on. IMO trouble shooting without even a simple ODB2 scanner is like flying in bad weather without instruments. Or maybe fist fighting with one hand tied behind your back. Given the amount of time and $$ already spent working without an ODB2 scanner seems short sighted.
 
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Thanks for the input, I will be renting a obd2 reader from autozone and will post results here. I checked all my fuses and relays, and checked for spark in my spark plugs and have confirmed I am getting spark. I then tested for fuel pressure at the fuel rail and was getting none. I then double checked my fuses for the fuel pump and confirmed I was getting power to them. I then checked for the plug connector at the rear of the car for the fuel pump and was not getting power at it, where as prior to the new pcm I was getting power at it. Based on this info I’m beginning to believe PATS is negating power to the fuel pump and thus not allowing fuel into the engine causing he no start. Is it safe to assume this right now? I will still be scanning it this weekend but for now I think this is a decent assumption based on my given info. Thanks for all your help burns, you’ve been a great help.
 
I then checked for the plug connector at the rear of the car for the fuel pump and was not getting power at it, where as prior to the new pcm I was getting power at it. Based on this info I’m beginning to believe PATS is negating power to the fuel pump and thus not allowing fuel into the engine causing he no start. Is it safe to assume this right now?
Ford factory PATS does NOT disable power to the fuel pump (1996+ MY). It works by with holding fuel injector pulse. Sooooooooooo IF there's no power at the trunk mounted IFS switch THEN you have a power problem that is unrelated to the PCM change. The answer is no.

Are you positive that the test is actually being done at the trunk IFS switch and not some other connector (not the round connector near the gas tank center). If by chance you are testing at the round connector it would be expected to only see power during the initial key on "prime" until the motor actually starts. Consider having a helper cycle the key on/pause/off while you listen for the fuel pump to run for a few seconds at each key on. IF you never hear the fuel pump run, there's a problem.

Suggestion. Double check your test results. An incorrect initial test might cause a wild goose chase of epic proportions. Some of these key tests give focus to following tests. A bad test will cause wasted time and wasted effort going down the wrong decision tree limb.

DOUBLE check that the test light or VOM is good. DOUBLE check that the ground is good. Double check that the probe is making a solid connection. Double check that you are testing the correct side of the connector (if the connector has been disconnected). Don't spread the connector pins by forcing the probe into the pins.

Note, it would be expected that a new PCM would need PATS reprogramming. What are the plans to reprogram PATS? Lock smith? ForScan? autoenginuity.com?

Going back to the original "crank with no start" link. Turn the key on but do not crank. Does the theft light go off after a 3 second "prove out"? If the reason for the no start is PATS related this will also set a DTC code.

Again here's some information on an affordable full featured ODB2 scanner and a possible DIY PATS re-programming option. The autoenginuity.com product can also reprogram PATS. I own the autoenginuity product and can give first hand knowledge that it can reprogram PATS.

ForScan ODB2 scanner w ELM327 USB
https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/resources/forscan-odb2-scanner-w-elm327-usb.57/

Note, are you aware of what the difference between an ODB2 reader and a scanner? The reader can only access DTC codes and mode 6 data. Where as a scanner can access operational PID's. The real help to trouble shooting is the operational PID's.
 
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Okay thank you, I will be renting a obd2 scanner with pid’s Hopefully tomorrow to see what the car is telling me. What do you think I should do from here? I feel like starting over as if I replaced nothing and just start over. Because I have not been successful with this vehicle. Tonight I just checked for power at the IFS, the FPDM and the plug by the fuel tank under the car. I was able to get power at all three plugs, the plug under the car by the fuel tank has 7 prongs, the 4 bottom and the 3 top. The center right prong on the bottom of the 4 which was a pink brown color got power and of the top 3 prongs the far right one got power which was black and white in color. All other prongs did not receive power. Also the connector that this plug, plugs into... are the wire colors all suppose to be different colors from the male connector? I got red/white, yellow etc no colors corrdinating with the male connector. I’ve come to the conclusion that my fuel pump is not priming or working, this is a new pump that has technically never worked. Im stupid and did not test for power or tested to make sure it worked before putting the tank back up. I also checked my fuel pump fuse and that’s good. Thanks for taking your time to help me out with this!
 
I hope that you don't expect someone to figure out which wire is which from your description (no wire colors given). FWIIW, the wires going to the fuel pump are RD/BK and BN/PK. If you wish to directly test the fuel pump it is possible to power the fuel pump directly from the round connector near the gas tank center bumper by sending 12 volts down the RD/BK and BN/PK. Be careful not to short out any of the other terminals. These wires can also be accessed at the FPDM in the trunk.

In a correctly working car you should HEAR the fuel pump run at initial key on? A helper can make this job easier.

Even better. Disconnect the fuel filter and put a piece of flexible hose on the filter and direct into a bucket. Does fuel come out at each key on/pause/off cycle?

NOTE, if you have confirmed key on power at the trunk IFS switch, this proves:
  • The fuel pump fuse is good
  • the ignition switch is sending power down fuse F2.34
  • That the fuel pump portion of the CCRM is latching and sending power to the IFS switch.

WHAT exactly does the theft light do at initial key on (do not crank)?
 
Alright so today I rented a obd2 scanner from auto zone, and to answer your question, when I turn the key to the on position, the theft light is solid on for about a minute, then it goes to blinking every 2-3 seconds. The service engine light is on, the battery light is on as well. This happens with both keys. So I attached the obd2 reader and I do a diagnostics self test for the continuous memory DTC’s. What I get is code P1260 (theft detected, vehicle immobilized) P1000 (obd system readiness test not complete) and P1233 (fuel pump driver module disabled or off line [fuel pump driver module]) now last night I tested power at the IFS switch and it’s getting power, I also tested for power at the FPDM and was getting power at it. I also checked for power at the plug under the trunk by the fuel tank and got power at PK/BR and WH/BK wires. I also ran a self test diagnostics for “KOEO” and got codes P0112 (intake air temp sensor 1 low input) and then the same codes as before P1260, P1000, P1233. I am unsure but after seeing these codes it seems that the anti theft is either preventing the FPDM or something is wrong with the FPDM itself, this part is new to me and I am unsure what to go about doing with it (not a new part, just unfamiliar with the part).
 
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