Anyone want to help me do a little research (Genetics related)?

t_chelle16 · Jan 29, 2004

On another forum, we've started a discussion on hybridization (admittedly, I'm sort of the one who started it).

The discussion centers on hybridization and why fish such as blood parrots, flowerhorns, and ob peacocks, which are all hybrids, can produce viable offspring, yet other fish such as guppies and platys can not interbreed in the first place.

This really throws a wrench into taxonomy because one of the things that defines a species is it's inability to breed with another species and produce viable offspring.

So basically what I'm trying to figure out is:

Why can some species interbreed and produce offspring while others cannot? What criteria must be met to allow 2 species to interbreed?
Why are some of those hybrids fertile? While others (like mules) are not?

-Chelle

StangDreamin' · Jan 29, 2004

I'm not a molecular biologist, and I don't play one on TV; but I'd first study the relative complexities of each creature's specific DNA structures and correlate that to the likelihood of the parents' ability to produce viable offspring.

Punnette Squares and all that......

Still Dreamin'

EDIT: I gave up and elaborated a bit more down the thread

The Hopkinator · Jan 30, 2004

My personal opinion on that is one of a spiritual doctrine. Of sorts. I believe that God has set parameters for what He feels His creations should evolve into. Yes, I wrote "Evolve" and God in the same sentence. You cant dispute evolution. But evolution doesnt directly impact creationism from this point of view. If we all emerged from the primordial ooze more or less at the same time, then split off to become whatever creature we were to become, think about this. Everything would have started at the same time. Why did homo sapien (us) keep trucking to the top of the land based food chain. The apex predator , if you will . Yet , a chicken , who I remind you , started at the same time at the point of origin as us, channel off to become a brainless ,flightless bird that is simply a feathered food source? Or cows? A grazing bovine awaiting a healthy dose of A-1 ... Its Gods ultimate design. The creatures are where they are supposed to be. If one is able to ever procreate in a manner which you inquire, its Gods will. Nothing more. Evolutionists that are anti creationist will never be able to provide a viable answer to that dilemma. If the theory of evolution alone were correct, we would all be one species, as we started as one species. But God gave us food sources. Look at Predatory animals . Birds, us, felines , canines, all the way back to the first dog, the ancient tomarctus. We all have one thing in common. Eyes forward . Owls, eagles, lions, housecats, your poodle, a grizzly. Eyes forward. Depth perception and target aquisition .Now think about prey animals. A deer. A cow, pigs ,rabbits, impalas, etc. Eyes opposite . To watch out for the eyes forward types. All Gods design. Like your fish, if it is His will for them to become a new species, they will.

t_chelle16 · Jan 30, 2004

I was actually thinking more in terms of scientific answers, but thank you for your insight anyway.

There is actually a HUGE controversy about hybrids in the fish keeping hobby (even bigger than the Eleanor controversy - I've actually seen people tell someone who has a hybrid fish that it should be killed). To an extent, I see it in the same terms as you do (or at least as I interpreted what you wrote). IMO, not all hybrid fish are bad. If it was so bad, then it God/Mother Nature/Genetics wouldn't allow it to happen. And as long as it doesn't result it the fish having detrimental deformities which would normally keep it from being able to survive outside a controlled aquarium setting (ie its natural environment), I don't see a problem.

-Chelle

63_Fairlane · Jan 30, 2004

Is it possible that these fish are part of the same family, but have developed differently due to seperate environments and breeding over long periods of time? Kind of like the difference between Wolves, Coyotes, German Shepherds, huskies, etc.... they are seperate but can breed and produce viable offspring.

t_chelle16 · Jan 30, 2004

I'm sure they have to at least belong to the same family, but just because they are in the same family, it doesn't mean they can breed. Like you can get a cross between a convict and a green terror (both in the family Cichlidae and from S. America), but an oscar (also in the Cichlidae family and from SA) can't breed with anything else.

-Chelle

HistoricMustang · Jan 30, 2004

Now this is classic talk. Nothing like the inbreeding that is going on in the "all the new folks" thread. Three or four people running crazy is exactly what killed the "Corral".

Chelle, just wish I had some insight for you.............................

Perhaps stuff just happens or maybe it is kind of like seeing only one side of the moon even though we know it rotates.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

steelhorse · Jan 30, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
Now this is classic talk. Nothing like the inbreeding that is going on in the "all the new folks" thread. Three or four people running crazy is exactly what killed the "Corral".

Chelle, just wish I had some insight for you.............................

Perhaps stuff just happens or maybe it is kind of like seeing only one side of the moon even though we know it rotates.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Chelle - I have been trying to control myself and not make any comments (beacuse keeping the key is a hard job and you earned it) about your questions, basically because I am not schooled in anything pretaining the breeding habits of fish (and beacuse keeping the key is a hard job and you earned it) so this is not meant as a hi-jack but,

Historic - Dude, seriously, I've seen a couple of these pointed comments from you lately and we all need a little outlet every now and then. Maybe you should just relax a little about the content. I mean all the hard core tech guy's/girl's had a big problem with us cutting up in the main forum so this little island was created to purify the actual car related topics from the conversations and for the most part I agree that it clouded the water and the division was a good idea. with that in mind I have respected the new regime and only posted on the main page when I either have a viable question or knowledge on a specific topic which has been already posted and I ask that you give that same respect to the "gutter/closet dwellers" as we have been dubbed. The talk forum was started for just the purpose we are using it for....TALK no matter what the topic are how off tech it is. We dont use vulgarity, profanity and keep this a family safe site. So as my mother used to tell me "If you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything." If you dont like the threads dont reply.

Sorry chelle and anyone else for the soapbox

Now back to the fish -- I was not aware that guppies and platys could not interbreed? I guess I never really though about it. Despite my ignorance on the matter i do find it interesting....tell me more

The Hopkinator · Jan 30, 2004

t_chelle16 said:
I was actually thinking more in terms of scientific answers, but thank you for your insight anyway.

There is actually a HUGE controversy about hybrids in the fish keeping hobby (even bigger than the Eleanor controversy - I've actually seen people tell someone who has a hybrid fish that it should be killed). To an extent, I see it in the same terms as you do (or at least as I interpreted what you wrote). IMO, not all hybrid fish are bad. If it was so bad, then it God/Mother Nature/Genetics wouldn't allow it to happen. And as long as it doesn't result it the fish having detrimental deformities which would normally keep it from being able to survive outside a controlled aquarium setting (ie its natural environment), I don't see a problem.

-Chelle

Agreed. Matter of fact, completely agree . I doubt however that you will find anyone here with enough anatomical , biological , hell, purely logical even ,, scientific reasoning why a parrot fish cant doink a neon tetra and have little neon parrots swimming around. But, I may be wrong ! My vast knowledge of fish can pretty much be summed up as pressing my face against the aquariam , tapping lightly, all the while saying "fishy ! fishy! fishy! " Wish I could help further than the last post Chelle. Sorry.

crushnut · Jan 30, 2004

The Hopkinator said:
My vast knowledge of fish can pretty much be summed up as pressing my face against the aquariam , tapping lightly, all the while saying "fishy ! fishy! fishy!

This is an interesting topic, unfortunately i dont have any answers, but i am curious as to why some can and others cant

HistoricMustang · Jan 30, 2004

Steel, I am not a "Dude".

Forget putting up 10,000 post and also get your head out of your butt. This old guy is not SD and you will not run me off!

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

steelhorse · Jan 30, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
Steel, I am not a "Dude".

Forget putting up 10,000 post and also get your head out of your butt. This old guy is not SD and you will not run me off!

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Actually by saying dude I was trying to keep this volley light-hearted.

I have been on this site for quite a while and have very few posts comparitivley and that is by no means my goal. I would not confuse you with SD, and for your information I actually have defended him a time or two and never really butted heads with him. I'm not trying to run you off by any means I have heard you give advice that you have picked up from your experiences racing at all the wonderful tacks around the country and have taken some of it into account setting up my own cars and wouldnt want you stop on my account. I would rather just encourage you to have a little fun with this site as you do in your racing ....it's not all nut's & bolt's sometimes the best part of it is just sliding behind the wheel and driving

HistoricMustang · Jan 31, 2004

Good question chelle. Sorry for the de-rail.

I guess things go on in nature that we do not yet understand. Perhaps that is why "humans" are different that all other "animals" (even though there are a few "animals" here). It has something to do with us having an additional part in the brain and the fact that we are the only species on the planet that can reason and wonder why things happen or do not happen.

I am not proud of the fact that some of us are unable to control who we are and what we do, but perhaps that is what growing old is all about.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

StangDreamin' · Jan 31, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
I guess things go on in nature that we do not yet understand. Perhaps that is why "humans" are different that all other "animals" (even though there are a few "animals" here). It has something to do with us having an additional part in the brain and the fact that we are the only species on the planet that can reason and wonder why things happen or do not happen.

I am not proud of the fact that some of us are unable to control who we are and what we do, but perhaps that is what growing old is all about.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Well, I thought I'd opened a door when I metnioned mentioned DNA complexity; but I guess not.

Short form, as short as I can make it and without all the technical terms and a full discussion of "dominant", "recessive" and "killer" genes (because Biology 102 was 21 years ago and I don't use iit much in my present career):

While it is in fact structured much like a polygonal helix, most instructors/students find it more easier to understand the DNA structure if viewed as a "ladder". As the DNA "ladder" becomes more complex (more "rungs", as it were); chances are greater that certain "rungs" will be incompatible with one another. This incompatibility can result in (among other anomolies): 1.)The disappearance of certain recessive traits of the parent species (for instance the dominance of brown eyes over blue); 2.)Certain deformities in the offspring (possible blindness or deformed/lost extremities); 3.) The chance of offspring not being viable (stillborn); 4.) A total incompatibility of such a majority of genes that feritlization is rendered impossible. In essence; the more complex the DNA structure, the greater likelihood that successful recombinant fertilization is catastrophic to the organism or perhaps even impossible.

Now, how is it that the most complex DNA helii (those in human cells)naturally combine in a manner to produce such a great diversity of the human body? That's one which causes the secular Darwinists to throw up their hands and the religious to smile mysteriously. I consider myself a religious Darwinist. "Survival of the Fittest" is how God has chosen to create the earth's creatures. How and why are question which mortals are still no closer to understanding - it's for the higher power.

Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to go back to making an a$$ of myself on a couple of the other threads here.

Still Dreamin'

65stanger · Feb 1, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
Good question chelle. Sorry for the de-rail.

I guess things go on in nature that we do not yet understand. Perhaps that is why "humans" are different that all other "animals" (even though there are a few "animals" here). It has something to do with us having an additional part in the brain and the fact that we are the only species on the planet that can reason and wonder why things happen or do not happen.

I am not proud of the fact that some of us are unable to control who we are and what we do, but perhaps that is what growing old is all about.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Don't assume that just because we cannot communicate with the other species of this planet that they are not intelligent, or that they don't wonder why things happen! For all we know they are just waiting for the human race to anihilate itself so that they can get on with their lives without worrying about us hunting them down or putting them in zoos or aquariums for our amusement!

Chelle - In response to your original question, sorry I am not a geneticist or microbiologist, so I am unable to answer your query.

btw-I am fully able to control what I do, nor does growing old have anything to do with it.

t_chelle16 · Feb 1, 2004

I've done some more looking around and basically all I've come up with is what StangDreamin was getting at. It all depends on the number of chromosomes and the arrangement of the DNA.

-Chelle

HistoricMustang · Feb 1, 2004

Stang, what if there is no higher power (perhaps that is for another classic discussion)? Listen, this stuff is real simple.

We have really done nothing more than "mutate" throught about a billion years. The ape that "mutated" with an extra toe got the upper hand and kicked all the other apes butt.

The human than "mutated" and received a larger brain was smarter than the other guys and figured out how to stay warmer and store food.

The guy that mutated with a bigger "you know what" attracted all the girls and more guys with bigger "you know whats" were born and then they had success.

Why make all this stuff hard? Life is simple!

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

StangDreamin' · Feb 1, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
Stang, what if there is no higher power (perhaps that is for another classic discussion)? Listen, this stuff is real simple.

We have really done nothing more than "mutate" throught about a billion years. The ape that "mutated" with an extra toe got the upper hand and kicked all the other apes butt.

Why make all this stuff hard? Life is simple!

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

To answer this question, I'll refer you the last part of 'Chelle's original post:

t_chelle16 said:
So basically what I'm trying to figure out is:

Why can some species interbreed and produce offspring while others cannot? What criteria must be met to allow 2 species to interbreed?
Why are some of those hybrids fertile? While others (like mules) are not?

-Chelle

That would be the answer to your "Why?".

Still Dreamin'

HistoricMustang · Feb 1, 2004

Listen, again lets make this simple.

I do not "quote" people and I do not refer posters to other posters. That is what makes these threads go absolutely crazy.

You never see me put up more than a sentence or two, unless it is tech.

But, perhaps this is tech.

The reason some species can't do what chelle asked is that they have not yet "mutated". Perhaps a mule will "mutate" this week and then that mule will be able to do it and produce offspring where he could not last week.

Again, simple stuff and the end of my conversation. Why make it hard?

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

StangDreamin' · Feb 1, 2004

HistoricMustang said:
Listen, again lets make this simple.

I do not "quote" people and I do not refer posters to other posters. That is what makes these threads go absolutely crazy.

Again, simple stuff and the end of my conversation. Why make it hard?

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Okay. I was merely answering your question "Why make it hard?" by indicating the 'Chelle was asking exactly the question my post was answering. Too busy doing "honey-do's" to be more specific - and frankly, I simply cannot think of any way to be more concise!

Let's just leave at that; and I'll start and hopefully close a little "min-hijack" by saying I still admire your "intestinal fortitude" in racing your 'Stang amidst those guys with lesser-valued vehicles.

Still Dreamin'

EDIT: 'Chelle, I apologise for my part in the direction this thread has taken.

Anyone want to help me do a little research (Genetics related)?

t_chelle16

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StangDreamin'

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Anyone want to help me do a little research (Genetics related)?

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