B,E,F,X,Z cams for new engine

BlackPearl955.0 · Nov 19, 2007

Been saving for a while and I am leaning torward a new engine.

I want everything new except for the cylinder heads because the ones I have only were used for about 200miles. I already have an E303 cam but It was used and I will be putting together a new engine soon.
What I have in mind is a BOSS 302 block, GT40x303 heads, forged steel crank(going up to 306 or 331), forged pistons, forged pushrods, forged H beams
There are a couple of choices I need some help with.
Dished, Domed, or Flattop pistons? benefits of each?

B,E,F,X,or Z cam? (I want great low and midrange power) so either a (E,F,X)
(I still want good torque and hp in the high rpms) this is going to be a street car and track when I have time, so I want a decent Idle quality) The whole good and fair terms dont really put the idle quality into picture. but i dont want the car to sound like it is sick when im at idle, I want a low constand rumble not a burp.

What roller rockers? (the cam will probably make my choice)

What transmission have you guys have had success with? (looking to make at least 400hp and with all the forged internals who wouldnt go with forced induction at some point.

What Upper/lower intake?

What #injectors? (24?,30?)

I want a solid track engine but also an engine that will take anything on the street.

Thanks you guys.

94mustangcobra · Nov 19, 2007

i'd go with dished pistons for sure just to keep the blower option open

from what i've read i wanna go with GForce internals in a T5 casing (don't have to change bellhousings/crossmembers/shifters).

why stay with a 306/331?? From what i've read a 331 will carry more power at 6K+ (60hp more than a 347) but at 3K the 347 has the 331 by 40 HP. Street wise the 347 is my choice, and remember there's no replacement for displacement

:OT: Where's Grady? I wanna see a 331 vs 347 shootout

reddy351 · Nov 19, 2007

Seems like if you're going to buy all new internals, you should pull as much displacement as possible. (Kinda silly to have a "forged" 306, as 306" is just a .030" over rebuild.)

The piston question requires an end goal. Staying NA will warrant higher compression pistons. (Flats or domed.) Boost reqires lower compression at the piston. (Dished.) But, it's not gonna make as much power, off the boost.

Trans. Pick your poison. There are quite few different answers to that. From OE T56's to fully prepped auto's. (Leaning towards a T5 with upgraded internals(or T3550), for what you've said here.)

Cam? Work out the rest of the details of your combo and have a custom one made, just for you.

As far as the rest, you can buy H/C/I combo's that are designed to work together and will usually make the best power for the $$$ spent.

Good luck! Have fun!

BlackPearl955.0 · Nov 20, 2007

Will going with a bigger crank be roughing up the idle? I want a smoother less bumpy idle. I dont want the car to sound like it is dying. I know it does nothing for the performance but it is somthing I want.
I think a 306 will give me that. Believe me I will go for the 331 or 347 if I can get a softer Idle
A chart comparing 306 331 347 with similar parts would be great

final5-0 · Nov 20, 2007

Even if you go 347 .......
You're gonna have to cam it pretty good to hit 400 NA at the wheels
It ain't gonna sound like a little stocker at idle

I don't see 40X heads or an alphabet cam as practical for a 347

You are gonna have to go with parts that will move a good bit of air

I'd talk to some peeps like Ed Curtis, Jay Allen, Mark at CHP or Rick at RNH

I'd think a 347 hitting NA 400 rwhp would need .....
big heads such as AFR185's or the equivalent
big intake like Holley or Victor
big cam like custom
70 or larger tb
ProM 80 or lightning meter
30's or larger inj's
Pro or self tune

That is just general generic info

The peeps you work with for your shortblock and cam will help you

Grady

fastgtfairlane · Nov 20, 2007

if you are getting a boss block, then why not take advantage of the ability to bore it out to 4.125. i have similar plans as i want a boss block but i would do a "big bore 347" the bore is i believe a 4.125 and a 3.25 stroke. its the same stroke as a 331 but you have more cubes with the larger bore.

PUNISHER RACING · Nov 20, 2007

because then you would have a $4,000 hunk of metal you couldn't bore but one more time in the future if needed

final5-0 · Nov 20, 2007

94mustangcobra said:
:OT: Where's Grady? I wanna see a 331 vs 347 shootout

No Need

We been down this road many times before :Word:

Go over to Small Block Ford Tech or Hardcore
and
See what folk who make a living with all this hot rod stuff have to say

Don't just listen to some hick in Texas who found a laptop

Grady

PUNISHER RACING · Nov 20, 2007

Don't just listen to some hick in Texas who found a laptop

that kills me!!!!

Black95GTS · Nov 20, 2007

400 rw or 400 fw?

Even if its 400 fw, thats about 340 rwhp. (assume 15% loss) Thats going to be mighty hard to get and maintain the kind of idle that you want with a 306. I think that number will be easy to get with a 347, maybe slightly more difficult with a 331. You definitely want more stroke though.

If I were you I'd get flat top pistons, Holley Systemax 2, AFR 185s, and an FTI cam. Settle for 9 to 1 compression NA because you may want to boost it in the future.

Either a 347 or 331 would be fine here. The cam you put in and the tune are what effects idle, not the size of the engine. Could probably get your HP goal without going higher then 6500 rpm.

my .02

Adam

BlackPearl955.0 · Nov 20, 2007

I would LOVE AFR 185s. but $$$$ for new heads was were I thought I could save a penny. Unless anyone want some X303 with 200miles .
Ok what about 375 at the wheels, that seems like a better goal. Will my heads allow that kind of flow? With a future blower will it be too much?
I do not want to bore my brand new Boss block just yet.
from the looking I have been doing the 347 seems like the best choice for the street.
Also to clarify on the piston choice do all work well with injectors? And are dished the best for a blower?

Anyone have or know people with 331 or 347 with a smooth idle?
I know It is not really important but a good tune would smooth it out right? The only thing is I dont want to Idle at 2500

Black95GTS · Nov 20, 2007

BlackPearl955.0 said:
I would LOVE AFR 185s. but $$$$ for new heads was were I thought I could save a penny. Unless anyone want some X303 with 200miles .
Ok what about 375 at the wheels, that seems like a better goal. Will my heads allow that kind of flow?

Probably not without some port work.

With a future blower will it be too much?

If you do an HCI combo, even with those heads, and a blower, you'll make enough to crack that block if you cam it and use the correct intake.

I do not want to bore my brand new Boss block just yet.
from the looking I have been doing the 347 seems like the best choice for the street.

I wouldn't want to perform that bore either. 331 or 347 for sure.

Also to clarify on the piston choice do all work well with injectors? And are dished the best for a blower?

Piston choice has nothing to do with injectors. Dish pistons lower your compression ratio (blower friendly), flat tops are in the middle (stock), and domed pistons will raise your compression (not blower, but N/A, friendly). Injector size is dependent purely on fuel needed by the engine... more power, more fuel, more injector.

Anyone have or know people with 331 or 347 with a smooth idle?
I know It is not really important but a good tune would smooth it out right? The only thing is I dont want to Idle at 2500

I don't know where you read that 331s and 347s idle bad. Thats just bad info. The idle is really only as good as the tune. As you start to approach higher HP numbers, its harder to tune, but not impossible. The "golden" rule is something like 1HP per cubic inch before you start to have tuning issues.

375 rwhp will take a healthy 331/347 with around 10.5 to 1 compression that will not be blower friendly. It will also require at least a 3.73 rear end ratio, which once again will not be blower friendly... if you want to add the blower later, you have to compromise on the N/A performance now.

Adam

BlackPearl955.0 · Nov 20, 2007

Ok I guess I can wait to build ponies with the blower. So 350rwhp is and easy goal to reach for a 347.
Any cam I want for my tastes.
Dished pistons for later blower attachment
Look into new heads(afr185's) anyone want heads?

Look for an HCI combo that fits my needs(any suggestions or places to start?)

Any imput on intakes? (eddy, gt40, trickflow)
I want alot of power in the lower rpms so I can work with that while the blower is spooling up. I may go turbo but I think a blower will probably be more practical.

I will probably have to go with a 75mm TB with the blower, along with new MAF and 30# injectors maybe more depending on boost. (looking for 12-15 when I can afford one)

Long tube headers will be better with a blower right? (just somthing heard)

Black95GTS · Nov 20, 2007

BlackPearl955.0 said:
Ok I guess I can wait to build ponies with the blower. So 350rwhp is and easy goal to reach for a 347.
Any cam I want for my tastes.
Dished pistons for later blower attachment
Look into new heads(afr185's) anyone want heads?

Look for an HCI combo that fits my needs(any suggestions or places to start?)

Any imput on intakes? (eddy, gt40, trickflow)
I want alot of power in the lower rpms so I can work with that while the blower is spooling up. I may go turbo but I think a blower will probably be more practical.

I will probably have to go with a 75mm TB with the blower, along with new MAF and 30# injectors maybe more depending on boost. (looking for 12-15 when I can afford one)

Long tube headers will be better with a blower right? (just somthing heard)

You'll need a 75mm TB and at least 42 pound injectors. Long tube headers are better for everything. You'll need to tune the car twice, after the HCI and again after the blower. The same cam won't be ideal for both N/A and super charged configurations. For intakes a Victor5.0, Holley Systemax II, or Trick Flow Box R would all work. If you use dished pistons and run with the lower compression ratio, I'm not sure how "easy" it would be to hit 350rwhp N/A. Bump for anyone who has a similar setup. Actually, I think KillerCanary has a 331 with lower compression that puts up numbers like that, talk to him.

If you want low RPM power, why not get a Kenne Bell roots style blower that will reach full boost by 2500 rpms?

I think you need to think out what you really want and do some more research because buying parts gets expensive very quickly.

Adam

final5-0 · Nov 20, 2007

Adam has given you what I feel to be some good info

IMHO, your expectations seem to be based upon desires and not upon what is
really obtainable.

Allow me to give you some generic or rule of thumb thinking.

302 parts on a 347 will usually make 302 power

Over and over parts such as gt40 intake and 40x heads keep surfacing.
They just don't flow all that well and are barely adequate for a 302 as I see it.

You say you want a lot of power down low.
A 347 will give it to you for sure
but
You want to hang adequate parts on it to allow that to happen

Look at this thread and see some idea of what I'm trying to say here

This fellow did up a stroker shortblock and used the 302 parts he had

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=726509

Grady

94mustangcobra · Nov 20, 2007

but you have better heads than me

and the more miles I put on my car the quicker it gets, had about 2K+ when i dyno'd it. 3520 w/ driver in what i call race trim

In case you missed it my pistons are 18cc dished because someday I'd like to have some boost.

My car idles at 900 rpms.... i guess if you have any specific questions just ask.

BlackPearl955.0 · Nov 20, 2007

Cool so the basic lesson is dont cheap out, do it right. I will look at some more set ups and determine which parts I like and which I dont.
I want a Kenne Bell but they are so expensive. Donations accepted well a project car is never done so that is something to save up for.
Thanks Any suggestions and advise is still welcome

BlackPearl955.0 · Nov 20, 2007

Too many choices by AFR which kind should I get?
Anyone know what I am looking for? AFR1387?
I dont need emissions
What size chamber 58, 61, 69cc? the X303 has 64cc I honestly dont know how these will effect compression, Im assuming less volume higher ratio?
Also any other brand of cams that you guys have had success with?
And where to find a large selection of HCI combos? I will still look on my own time but any direction or places to avoid would be great
Thanks

5spd GT · Nov 20, 2007

You mention a Boss block? Are you talking about the new Ford Racing Boss block?

http://www.adperformance.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=69_258&products_id=871

If so, that will take lots of power.

Now, I will talk about a very streetable N/A combination I would suggest.

- 347 (5.315"/1.175" rod/piston combo)
- AFR 185's (58cc and it can be either emissions and plug or non-emissions)
- Holley Systemax
- FTI custom camshaft (www.flowtechinduction.com)
- 1 3/4" Longtube headers/offroad H-pipe/and muffler of choice
- 80mm MAF from Pro-M
- 70-75mm Throttle Body
- 30 lb injectors
- 10:1 compression
- Tune

You can make anywhere from 350-400rwhp depending on what you tell the cam grinder. Since you are looking for a more streetable combo, it will be on the lower end, which will still be lots of fun and beat most cars on the street.

www.coasthigh.com makes nice 347 shortblocks as well as Rick 91 GT on this site, but I am sure it is even better quality with very competive prices.

As Ed Curtis will tell you, he does not recommend a dome piston (higher compression) for a daily driver or true street car.

Now, if you are planning on boost and a stroker as well, you need to make sure you have an aftermarket block, which will run in the $2,000 range.

I would strongly suggest a 331 for a boosted application, with anywhere above 10 psi of boost. You will also need much more than 42 lb injectors.

The combination you are planning on putting together could easily cost you near 15,000.

If you would like to read more about the differences between stroker engines, click on the link in my signature.

- Block
- Forged Internals
- Builder Cost
- All the top-end and exhaust
- Drivetrain upgrades
- Tuning

It is not going to be cheap...

Yes, the higher the cc number, the lower it will make the compression.

Good Luck!

BlackPearl955.0 · Nov 20, 2007

Cool, I wanted to build it myself but with all that shipping it may be easier to just have someone build it for me

B,E,F,X,Z cams for new engine

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