Progress Thread Back to buying sh_t..er stuff.

droopie85gt

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It's right at 6". I'm guessing since it is displacing the same amount of air, on an engine less than half the size it would make more boost. That would be good, because it could use a bigger pulley to slow it down and reduce chance of belt slippage.
 
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droopie85gt

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So @a91what how much to ship that monstrosity? That may or may not be a project for another day.

But I was thinking I would like to try my hand at Autocross some day, maybe before I go total drag car. And a turbo that spools at 4500 is fine for the 1320, but would kinda suck trying to drive it. But a positive displacement blower could make enough low end torque to require a boost control strategy to keep from bending rods.

Which leads to my next quandary. @CarMichael Angelo has the 3AMD (or 230AMD depending on his insomnia). I've got the DosDosXX demo. Once I have 2 or 3 32oz DosXX, I come home, and if I don't go immediately to sleep, I get on this damn computer. I read all these posts on all these sites and watch YouTube. Then spend literal hours thinking of stuff to buy/do/fab. Not that I do too much of the latter two. BUT I shop like a LA Housewife with an unlimited credit card good only on Rodeo Drive.

I've got suspension parts, 302 parts I haven't sold (including a complete 302), 2.3 parts galore. I joked a few weeks ago I was waiting for the heat to start the work. It's not a joke. I figure pretty soon the 90's and unbearable humidity will come and I will be pulling the 302 to sell and start fabbing whatever the 2.3 needs.

I have to order the funky 2.3 to 5.0 T5 pilot bushing from this place called Rapido. I need to redo the fuel system. I adapted the carb lines to efi with factory style nylon lines in the back and then rubber efi hose with clamps in the front. The TBI runs 21 psi. If I seriously crank the boost to 30 psi, that's going to be at least 70 psi of fuel pressure.

I've thought more and more, and am totally open to swapping for the 79 Futura the guy has. So before I do much more than yank the transmission and engine out of the 85, I'll see where he's at on his house. I know he's cash poor right now, so I need to see what all he can throw in to a roller/roller swap to make it worth my while.

I know if I really want to bracket race, I need to get that C4 he has. That's probably worth the swap right there just to get it. I could use it or sell it and make the difference up. Plus all the suspension parts I have bolt right on. Seems there's I saw a 'glass hood and decklid available for the Fairmont.

@CarMichael Angelo is the decklid the same on a box top as a Futura?

I've also thought since I am making an adapter to mount a 4bbl throttle body elbow to the stock 2.3 lower intake, I could theoretically put the 2.3 in and start it on the TBI. Even get a carb hat and throw a little boost at it. But I would like to sell the Commander 950 and Holley HP setups I have and move over to a MSPro Evo setup. Then spend more money and get the kit from Stinger that converts a TFI distributor to a dual sync cam and crank sensor and run sequential injection. Which requires the aforementioned fuel mods. Which means I need to be sure I have the car I am keeping for good. Which means, right now, I just stay up late and buy :poo: off EBAY, FB Market, Amazon, and forums!
:bang:
 

74stang2togo

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So @a91what how much to ship that monstrosity? That may or may not be a project for another day.

But I was thinking I would like to try my hand at Autocross some day, maybe before I go total drag car. And a turbo that spools at 4500 is fine for the 1320, but would kinda suck trying to drive it. But a positive displacement blower could make enough low end torque to require a boost control strategy to keep from bending rods.

Which leads to my next quandary. @CarMichael Angelo has the 3AMD (or 230AMD depending on his insomnia). I've got the DosDosXX demo. Once I have 2 or 3 32oz DosXX, I come home, and if I don't go immediately to sleep, I get on this damn computer. I read all these posts on all these sites and watch YouTube. Then spend literal hours thinking of stuff to buy/do/fab. Not that I do too much of the latter two. BUT I shop like a LA Housewife with an unlimited credit card good only on Rodeo Drive.
You and Mike need to keep those damned demons on a leash, I was visited by one or both the last two nights, and now there's a hole in the II the size of a strip of bacon and I'm about to go attack the thing with my $89 Harbor Freight welder.
 

a91what

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No you wont. You will simply mod the distributor and make it yourself to save money.
I'll will ship it wherever you just let me know. Boost control will be easy, use a spring that is rated for your lowest desired boost level. Then reference the gate from the intake not the turbo outlet, this way the combined boost will open the gate and you dont end up with all the required math.
 

droopie85gt

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38018.

So, one thread I read about said no wastegate on the turbo. Put an electronic wastegate on the intake and control boost there and it would also act as a BOV. Not sure I quite have wrapped my head around it. It's all about pressure ratios. If I could keep the M90 spinning slow, maybe 6-8 psi level by itself, I could send it all the boost from the HX35 and it just takes that and steps it up.

Or I was dreaming of a more complex setup that spins the hell out of the blower, then bypasses it as the turbo spools up. Seems way to complex. By that time, I could just put a turbo 4.8LS in it! :thinking: :doh:
 

a91what

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You could do 2 wategates. One to control boost pressure in the manifold and the second to bypass the m90 once pressures raise beyond its pulley ratio.
I am helping junkyarddogg with his twin m90 setup and I have him working on using wastegate to control pressure in the manifold by having them bleed the excess to atmosphere.

A bypass valve is a must, it will recirculate air around the blower at idle. Anything that requires use of a servo motor to operate can be a pain in the ass, such as the idea you spoke of. The wastegate for the inlet track can be a cheapie... I can help you with the tuning of such a system with no issue.
 

droopie85gt

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@a91what I meant an electronic boost controlled wastegate. So one on the intake tract for max boost and then probably one just using spring pressure on the M90? And then still a conventional BOV? I need to find the post again on TurboFord where the guy has an M90 on a 2.3 and a wastegate with like a 3 or 5psi spring on the wastegate mounted on the intake tract. At idle or throttle off, the vacuum opens the wastegate and it acts as a modulated BOV. So it bleeds off low rpm boost to keep from building boost too quick and bending rods. I haven't sat around (sober) and read long enough to understand.
 

a91what

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@a91what I meant an electronic boost controlled wastegate. So one on the intake tract for max boost and then probably one just using spring pressure on the M90? And then still a conventional BOV? I need to find the post again on TurboFord where the guy has an M90 on a 2.3 and a wastegate with like a 3 or 5psi spring on the wastegate mounted on the intake tract. At idle or throttle off, the vacuum opens the wastegate and it acts as a modulated BOV. So it bleeds off low rpm boost to keep from building boost too quick and bending rods. I haven't sat around (sober) and read long enough to understand.
No problem when you find it post a link so I can see how its setup.
 

droopie85gt

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Ooops, M62, but same idea...Twin Charged 2.3 It's a super clean build.

I thought there was a thread with a video of the wastegate being used as a BOV, but I've looked at so many threads in the last month I can't find it. I've found more of his threads, though, where he is looking for a better way to bypass the SC and to use a better BOV system. I've got a twin scroll header and can just buy a divided T3-T4 adapter. I know for certain, it will be built with a turbo only to start....I don't want to spend all the time in the world figuring out how to mount a SC and all that stuff. It will be nice to dream about and maybe try someday.
 

droopie85gt

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Well, I mocked up some stuff today. Trying to make a 4150 throttle body elbow fit to the lower intake was a FAIL. There's just not enough meat on the lower to meet up the elbow and have A)either the ability to get all 4 bolts in or B) enough meat to seal a gasket.

Another FAIL. The header is a T4. The HX35 is T3. The header has the WG flange cut off and welded up. So I thought, sure get a $30 adapter/spacer with a WG flange. I can tell by LOOKING at the adapter that the flanges on it are warped to hell. Plus I would need an wastegate pipe extension to get the WG to clear the compressor housing.

But it looks cool and I got to make turbo and bov noises. I'll probably go back to my idea of making an adapter plate out of 1/2" plate to mate the elbow to the lower. Or buy a gutted and rotated stock upper, but we shall see.

I guess I'll buy the $90 adapter plate that keeps the header twinscroll and put a wastegate flange back in the header.

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CarMichael Angelo

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Firstly......

No, the rear deck lids are not the same between the stupid looking Argentinian staff car that is a box top, and Futura body Fairmonts.
Secondly,...( and this is just me being me)
I always urge people to do a fair amount of self examination and know what they are capable of, willing to do, or willing to pay to have done when they take on a project.
That said,.......lecture time.

A compound boosted 2.3? Really?
Did you read that Irish guys final outcome? He killed the M62, and couldn’t make any boost on the turbo by itself. Even in compound form, he couldn’t make anymore than like 15 psi. He’s now got to add additional springs to keep waste gates closed that are acting as bypass valves or bov’s, and when taking the complexity of the build, , the whole thing makes my old ITB setup look like a carb on a SBC intake comparatively.

A roots SC makes a buttload of hot air that now gets fed to a turbo thats already hot as hell because it’s sitting........on a glowing, red hot, bundle of tubing. Then, that molten hot mess of air gets to briefly pass through some intercooler before it goes into his engine, and when all said and done..it don’t work right. I did all of that. I decided to “ not just throw in a 5.0/5.7/LS for the sake of simplicity,“ and did what I did to be different.

Everybody here knows how that ended, and what I ended up with.

Conversely,.......A twin scroll turbo attempts to mimic a twin turbo already by nature of its design. In that small engine, I’d bet it’d by almost mandatory that you build the system to take full advantage of that if you want to get any power out of this. That requires that you put the right turbo on the right exhaust manifold.
Anything “ adapted” is a compromise. Especially when you are trying to merge a 4150 sized throat into a restricted opening 1/3-1/2 that size.

Keep it simple if you want to have something that youll be able to rely on when Saturday comes. If you want to make some 400 hp 2.3 turbo, it’s clearly doable. But you don’t have to go “cutting the side of the block open“ to do that. A single, properly sized, twin scroll turbo, and the right converter/gear to get the engine into boost will get you there.

The complexity of adapting a roots S/C to any engine that didn’t come that way is a big enough pain in the ass as it is. Mounting it and plumbing it alone is daunting enough,...Add in another compressor, and all of the sht that comes with tying the two together,.....THEN try to get it running.........And THEN tuning that to have it make full power....consistently....

Id never even get to sleep..the 3amd would get more sleep than I would.
 

a91what

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With that intake I could see myself making a simple adapter plate to bolt the SC directly to the intake. Then feed the blower with the turbo, I see no reason to add all the complexity or remote mount the sc anywhere. After all my fabrication of the last two systems that looks easy.
 

droopie85gt

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No you wont. You will simply mod the distributor and make it yourself to save money.
I'll will ship it wherever you just let me know. Boost control will be easy, use a spring that is rated for your lowest desired boost level. Then reference the gate from the intake not the turbo outlet, this way the combined boost will open the gate and you dont end up with all the required math.
I'm with you....Mike was saying something, but I didn't hear it! LOL. Actually for drag racing the simple thing would be a 75hp shot of nitrous on the 2 step release and the turbo is SPOOLED. But any kind of street driving....well, that won't be fun at all. Solution, lots of nitrous! :doh:

Getting there but not a slam dunk :(

I'll have to try more better.
 

droopie85gt

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Dec 26, 2016
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Firstly......

No, the rear deck lids are not the same between the stupid looking Argentinian staff car that is a box top, and Futura body Fairmonts.
Secondly,...( and this is just me being me)
I always urge people to do a fair amount of self examination and know what they are capable of, willing to do, or willing to pay to have done when they take on a project.
That said,.......lecture time.

A compound boosted 2.3? Really?
Did you read that Irish guys final outcome? He killed the M62, and couldn’t make any boost on the turbo by itself. Even in compound form, he couldn’t make anymore than like 15 psi. He’s now got to add additional springs to keep waste gates closed that are acting as bypass valves or bov’s, and when taking the complexity of the build, , the whole thing makes my old ITB setup look like a carb on a SBC intake comparatively.

A roots SC makes a buttload of hot air that now gets fed to a turbo thats already hot as hell because it’s sitting........on a glowing, red hot, bundle of tubing. Then, that molten hot mess of air gets to briefly pass through some intercooler before it goes into his engine, and when all said and done..it don’t work right. I did all of that. I decided to “ not just throw in a 5.0/5.7/LS for the sake of simplicity,“ and did what I did to be different.

Everybody here knows how that ended, and what I ended up with.

Conversely,.......A twin scroll turbo attempts to mimic a twin turbo already by nature of its design. In that small engine, I’d bet it’d by almost mandatory that you build the system to take full advantage of that if you want to get any power out of this. That requires that you put the right turbo on the right exhaust manifold.
Anything “ adapted” is a compromise. Especially when you are trying to merge a 4150 sized throat into a restricted opening 1/3-1/2 that size.

Keep it simple if you want to have something that youll be able to rely on when Saturday comes. If you want to make some 400 hp 2.3 turbo, it’s clearly doable. But you don’t have to go “cutting the side of the block open“ to do that. A single, properly sized, twin scroll turbo, and the right converter/gear to get the engine into boost will get you there.

The complexity of adapting a roots S/C to any engine that didn’t come that way is a big enough pain in the ass as it is. Mounting it and plumbing it alone is daunting enough,...Add in another compressor, and all of the sht that comes with tying the two together,.....THEN try to get it running.........And THEN tuning that to have it make full power....consistently....

Id never even get to sleep..the 3amd would get more sleep than I would.

See @CarMichael Angelo you have the 3amd. I have the 2XD. (Dos XX Demon) Or here lately since beer foams something fierce on the drive home in a 40 oz styrofoam cup, the MD (margarita demon). After 40, 80, even 120 ounces of cool refreshment, the demon of choice tells me 2 things. Look up the most off the wall :poo: you can find and then figure out how and where to buy it.

While the twin charger sounds cool and would be cool on a show car, it introduces multiple points of failure. So, me not going to do that. One thing that seriously is going to hamper my goals is the limited availability of pump E85 in this area and the EXPENSE of race E85. Let's see, $1.79 at the pump (2 gas stations 30 miles away) or $15/gallon for a 5 gallon bucket. I'm more inclined to run methanol at that price. Maybe the crazy expense and complexity of dual fuel systems. Gas to drive on and methanol to race on. Dammit, it's almost like the MD is right here right now taking over!

I guess this weekend I need to get some gas, crank up and film the 302 running at temp with oil pressure and list it for sale. That will get things moving forward for sure, since I have spent a lot of my stimulus money already.
 

droopie85gt

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@Monkeybutt2000 Thanks! If I could choose a direction, this whole thing would be done by now. I'm going to make another run at swapping for the Futura so I can be like Mike! If not, I have a ton of parts to start putting on this car. Plus lower torque box reinforements (already have the uppers) and at least a 6 point cage. I may make a concession to being older and fatter...swing out door bars.
 

droopie85gt

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I'm so friggin pissed today. So last weekend, I went to rebuild the HX35 turbo. Cheap assed Amazon snap ring pliers are a tad too short to get the bottom snap ring for the journal bearing on the turbine side. Not terrible, I get it in, and don't mangle it. Get the cartridge together and go to put the turbine in. Oh, I notice I have 1 oil ring seal for the turbine (the new gapless fancy kind). Hmm, my turbine has 2 rings. I email dude at Turbo Lab America where I got the kit and he says, NO problem, I'll send you another one. $8. $4 for the ring, $4 for the mail. Damn, that's not bad at all. So last Monday I pay him. Wednesday I get it....all the way to Memphis, TN from VA in 2 days.
Go to put the turbo together and in a bag for safe keeping. And the turbine WILL. NOT. GO. IN. It will with the old rings....but not with the new and not with 1 new and 1 old. WTF. After an hour I give up. Send dude another email.
He replies take some measurements of the housing and the turbine. Well, Sat morning I put the new rings in the housing It won't go. They are too big. WTF. The gapless part butts up hard. So again I punt and send an email. Don't get a reply Sat or yesterday. Figure dude is ghosting me. Until I get home tonight and notice my email failed to send from my phone. So I email him again, hopefully he knows what the hell is goings on.

THEN, my 19 year old son comes over and I hit the close garage button and halfway down all hell breaks loose and the garage door goes cattywampus 45 degree sideways. We get it back up and I am thinking damn...those springs I put on last year sure sucked if they broke already. They didn't break. The cable on the right side came off, so I finally got the door down. Made sure both drums are oriented the same. Get the cable back on. Release the springs all the way and rewind them exactly even. Door goes up and down by hand. Hook it up. It goes up, it goes down. It goes up, it goes and :leghump:s itself again.

I disconnected both cables, let the spring off and went and cooked burgers. I can't believe this POS door that's only 20 years old, would :leghump: up like this. What the hell is this world coming to. So I order a new set of whizbang 5 star rated wheels that will be here Wednesday. The wheels are pretty worn out. I hope that's it.

Maybe by then I'll get an answer on the seals on the turbine. Maybe I just need to get 2 old style rings. If they are too big, I can always file the gap like a regular piston ring. Oh which reminds me, this wasn't the end of my turbo pains.

So while I am trying to read up and figure out what's up with the seals, I read that the snap rings for the journal bearings should have the beveled side towards the bearings, and the flat side away. When I put them in, I did the opposite. Dude from Turbo Lab says bad juju happens so I said ok, I'll pop them out and flip them. An hour later I am sweating and cussing and ready to pour gas on the whole thing. The compressor side took 5 minutes.

It then took 20 minutes to get bottom snap ring on the turbine side out. FIrst try to get it in, snap-bing-bang it flies across the room. I search for 20 minutes and somehow find it! Woohoo. I then get it in, but realized I have now mangled it. It almost falls out. FRICK AND FRACK. So I use the other new one and it pops right in. Put the bearing in and put one of the better looking used ones in. So the center housing is DONE. Just need turbine seals and in the bag it goes.

I was trying to make an adapter to put a regular throttle body elbow on the 2.3 lower since the plenum is almost the same as a 4150 Holley although the bolt pattern is way off. Nothing seems to be working to well, so I broke down and sent my stock Tbird upper intake out to get gutted and rotated 90 so it's front facing. Hope it's here next week.

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droopie85gt

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Well, I didn't have anything :leghump: up on me yet today, so I have that going for me. A box from BoPort Racing showed up. My roller rockers, HLA's, and Stage 3 cam. I can almost smell the hole in the side of the block that's to come!

Dude from Turbo Labs emailed me and punted. Said I could buy a new center section for $55 and the seals he sent fit it. I did more digging and am buying a $22 rebuild kit for an HX50 that has 2 old style rings. By Googleing for a couple of hours I found the Holset part number cross references to some HX35 HX40 and HX50. I'm not sure why my turbine has 2 sealing rings as all the other ones I have seen have 1, but the HX50's have 2. Maybe this will work. I think 2 standard rings will be a better seal than 1 gapless ring anyway. It should last longer perhaps.

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