Progress Thread First Project Car - '93 Notch.

James V

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So the most you want to take either stock block bore wise is 40 over . The cyl walls become to thin after that and you run into over heat issues and possible cracking in the walls .

A stock 302 block is a time bomb after 550 whp . Depending on the tune up some guys make more etc but it isn’t some concrete number . Concenus is they start to rattle the crank esp If you have any detonation or spinning the engine some high rpm and crack right up through the cam journal .


So if you are starting from scratch what’s the long term goal power goal ? If the plan is a fully freshened engine the 351 is a no brainer . If you’re just looking for a heads cam intake car that’s a 300 hp cruiser with the intent to never really turn it up to its limit then a 302 maybe out of explorer or something with good heads on it and a good cam would be easier on the pocket .

351 for power ? Let’s just say we have a stock 79 block and crank , je piston 30 over , good rods and a 78 mm turbo that’s been 8.52 at 157 in the 1/4 and together for 8 years .

Starting from scratch on the 351 youd need an oil pan , dist , matching upper and lower intake , headers , and 28 oz flywheel before even touching the motor . Also hood clearance . Can’t remember as I’m writing if you have a Stock hood or not but Guys Have used vert mounts and k member spacers and it has beem done under one .

You cannot plan the engine build until you decide your final goal power wise .

After you did that then you need to sit and make sure the chassis , suspension and every part In the drivetrain will not be a weak link . Building cars is fun isn’t it ?
I just realized you said you shouldn't bore a stock block more than .40 over. So does that mean I wouldnt be able to do a 347 from my stock block? Should I make it a 306?
 
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Cobbage_45

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I think the idea of a 351 is something that I would like to do in a future project car down the road. Im such a novice still. I was reading about boring a 351 to 400+ cubes which sounds amazing. Right now I think if I can just get cheaper and reliable power I'd be happy. I'm not really worried about smog since I live on the east coast. I was seeing some 351 blocks for $200 on craigslist, that's what got me interested originally. Most likely I'll make my 302 a 347, I'll get the stroker kit from LMR and a nice top end kit, then I have to figure out my trans situation.
I'm a beginner too! I got my 90 fox back in 2016 and worked with and learned from an experienced friend since then. I think they can be bored and stroked safely to 427cu in. Alot more with aftermarket blocks. I know Coast High Performance has a 454 that's based on a 351w. I think the max aftermarket I've seen with 302 is 363.

I used to live in Virginia and no smog was great! I think TKO600 was a great choice for me until I read more about TKO500 being more "street friendly"? I also had some friends that dealt with the T56 magnum said those shifts like butter and can handle 700 lbft. LMR has an aluminum drive shaft and other jazz for the T56.
 
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Cobbage_45

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I just realized you said you shouldn't bore a stock block more than .40 over. So does that mean I wouldnt be able to do a 347 from my stock block? Should I make it a 306?
For a 347, it's a 30 over with 3.4 stroke. I'm a noob but internet told me 60 over is like the absolute max or something...
 
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TOOLOW91

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Thanks for all the insite. Based on what you told me and some other research I've done I think I'm going to stick with my 302 block and build that. Mainly because my budget, I didnt realize building a 351 could get so pricey. I would like to make around 400hp. So maybe I'll get it bored to a 331 or 347, I saw some kits for those too. My last thing that i have to decide is whether i want to turbo it. What's your opinion on should I just build it N/A or single turbo?
I just realized you said you shouldn't bore a stock block more than .40 over. So does that mean I wouldnt be able to do a 347 from my stock block? Should I make it a 306?
Looking closely at what I said again your power goal in one breath is fine with a NA 347 at 400 hp and to do that optimally you will not be building a boost friendly engine the optimal cam and compression ratio is not ideal . The next breath you say turbo . So if you build the engine to handle the boost you’re at the limit of the block and playing with Fire like I said . So here’s where it pays to have gone 351 base in stock form will handle way more power and not have that worry . So you need to think long and hard about this.

.30 over with the right crank and rods gets you to a 347 . A 306 is just a stock short freshened .30 over .
 
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TOOLOW91

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I'm a beginner too! I got my 90 fox back in 2016 and worked with and learned from an experienced friend since then. I think they can be bored and stroked safely to 427cu in. Alot more with aftermarket blocks. I know Coast High Performance has a 454 that's based on a 351w. I think the max aftermarket I've seen with 302 is 363.

I used to live in Virginia and no smog was great! I think TKO600 was a great choice for me until I read more about TKO500 being more "street friendly"? I also had some friends that dealt with the T56 magnum said those shifts like butter and can handle 700 lbft. LMR has an aluminum drive shaft and other jazz for the T56.
Guys have gone way further with aftermarket blocks both 351 and 302 based . My block is 4.130 inch currently . Tko .600 is fine on the street and input shaft is stronger . They hate high rpm shifts . That’s why mine is gone and I have a fully done AOD in mine . T56 can be made to hold some stupid power and shift like butter look into tranzilla.
 

James V

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Ok so I'll go N/A since that will get me to my goal alone. But I'm still confused on how the bore works, so .30 over can make a 347 with the proper crank? I saw a nice scat kit I would get if that's the case.
 

TOOLOW91

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Ok so I'll go N/A since that will get me to my goal alone. But I'm still confused on how the bore works, so .30 over can make a 347 with the proper crank? I saw a nice scat kit I would get if that's the case.
The bore is just the size of the cylinder Alone. To get stroker stroke of the new crank is different as well as rod length plus the piston being .30 over and that takes you to your 331,347 or whichever you choose
 

TOOLOW91

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You need to decide who’s building the engine too , what heads , also who does the cam ( I use Brian Freezy guy is a whiz ) . Heads will determine what piston you go with . Then intake manifold etc . None of your existing parts will be adequate for a 400hp NA strokee build besides like reusing your timing cover and oil pan . Even that due to Windge issues I’d use a good pan
 

TOOLOW91

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If it were me .
347 , scat kit is fine with twisted wedge specific pistons ( those are my preferred head )
I’d have it 0 “ netrual” balance . The engine will last longer and will love higher rpm the harmoics will be much more controlled
Netrual balance flywheel
PowerBond balancer PB1086ss
Holley systemax 2 or tfs R intake ( not the box )
75mm Tb ( Accufab the rest all whistle and just don’t compare I have been there )
Trick flow 19011r twisted wedge head
Harland sharp rockers
10.5:1 compression ratio
Custom cam by Brian Freezy ( this makes or breaks making hp and having the car drive the way you want )
13/4 long tubes
Lifters frpp would work fine I had a set I spun to 7400 rpm
Hardened push rods - length will be determined when assu occurs and can be checked
Ford racing timing set will work great double roller chain and the lower gear makes it so cam can be degreed correctly/ roll master also makes a awsome set with a Torrington bearing

If you embark on this do it once and right . I’ve tried budget many times . You always have money to re buy the quality stuff when you’re doing it 2-3 Times . I have been down this road


Something like that would be an insanely fun car and make some hp


This kit with a 66cc combustion chamber would put you right at 10.0:1 give or take with head gasket thickness which can be altered to get you to the cr you need or they can slightly deck the head some to make the chamber a touch smaller . Either way at 10:1 the car would run real strong
 
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James V

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If it were me .
347 , scat kit is fine with twisted wedge specific pistons ( those are my preferred head )
I’d have it 0 “ netrual” balance . The engine will last longer and will love higher rpm the harmoics will be much more controlled
Netrual balance flywheel
PowerBond balancer PB1086ss
Holley systemax 2 or tfs R intake ( not the box )
75mm Tb ( Accufab the rest all whistle and just don’t compare I have been there )
Trick flow 19011r twisted wedge head
Harland sharp rockers
10.5:1 compression ratio
Custom cam by Brian Freezy ( this makes or breaks making hp and having the car drive the way you want )
13/4 long tubes
Lifters frpp would work fine I had a set I spun to 7400 rpm
Hardened push rods - length will be determined when assu occurs and can be checked
Ford racing timing set will work great double roller chain and the lower gear makes it so cam can be degreed correctly/ roll master also makes a awsome set with a Torrington bearing

If you embark on this do it once and right . I’ve tried budget many times . You always have money to re buy the quality stuff when you’re doing it 2-3 Times . I have been down this road


Something like that would be an insanely fun car and make some hp


This kit with a 66cc combustion chamber would put you right at 10.0:1 give or take with head gasket thickness which can be altered to get you to the cr you need or they can slightly deck the head some to make the chamber a touch smaller . Either way at 10:1 the car would run real strong
Interesting. I feel like I'm a far way from understanding compression ratio and how different parts mesh well together but I'll have to keep doing research. I also think i really have to think hard about it like you said. Budget is my biggest factor right now.

What's your thoughts on a kit like this, keeping the 302, and then I would change some bottom end parts as well. If I can stick under 450hp then I wouldn't have to worry about a stock block and trans having issues? I would be happy right around 400.

 
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TOOLOW91

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Interesting. I feel like I'm a far way from understanding compression ratio and how different parts mesh well together but I'll have to keep doing research. I also think i really have to think hard about it like you said. Budget is my biggest factor right now.

What's your thoughts on a kit like this, keeping the 302, and then I would change some bottom end parts as well. If I can stick under 450hp then I wouldn't have to worry about a stock block and trans having issues? I would be happy right around 400.


I made 740 Rwhp with those heads . That kit NA will not get you too 400hp at the tires with an other wise stock 302 or even a fresh 306. You may see 300 maybe a touch more at the tire . What i sent you would get you to 400 At tire on a stock block and be a tire frying potent NA motor on pump gas with no worries of the block being an issue . Your money and time of course dictate what you do . I think i laid out a pretty detailed setup . If you decided to do a top end setup on the 302 id do a loose version of that kit you sent . I’d use the 190r heads though . Diff intake, talk to a cam guy about custom to even though you’d be limited due to piston to valve clearence. That set also comes with some of the cheaper gaskets . Id run a 9333pt1 head gasket in that situation too .
 
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James V

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Hey guys, I'm back in action. For the past few months I've been having a love/hate relationship with my notch. I put it up for sale multiple times with the plans of just starting fresh. I even checked out another notch over the weekend and fell in love with it. It didnt have all the minor things that annoyed me about my fox like a rattle noise I cant locate, and all the trim was perfect unlike mine and it was all one color lol, not to mention a perfect interior. But I walked away from it (couple different reasons, rust coming through some bondo spots was one). I decided to go back to square one on mine (I guess not really square one since it has come a long way). I'm fixing all the little things I dont like about it. First things first I'm getting the right driver side fender. I bought 2, one the guy sold me the wrong year (i was naive and didnt realize) and I also bought an aftermarket one which fits like absolute crap. I'm lining everything up, I'm going to sand and prep and get it painted. Which leads me to my first couple questions. What's the best technique to sand it? I bought an orbital sander, what number grit sandpapers should I use and do I block sand it all? Secondly how do I fix the dents that I pictured below?

And lastly this weekend I noticed the notch I checked out (engine bay in pic below is not from it) didnt have a tensioner. What's the reason theres no tensioner and how does it work? I'm sure the answer is probably simple. Glad to be back!

20190903_203453.jpg


Screenshot_20190903-203401_Photos.jpg

Screenshot_20190903-203354_Photos.jpg
 

Olivethefet

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In the pic of the engine with no tensioner it appears that they replaced it with that adjustable rod connecting the alternator to the block. The factory spring tensioner applies pressure and will keep the belt tight as the belt wears/stretches. That setup might need to be tightened from time to time. I'm sure there are other explanations.
 
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Davedacarpainter

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Hey guys, I'm back in action. For the past few months I've been having a love/hate relationship with my notch. I put it up for sale multiple times with the plans of just starting fresh. I even checked out another notch over the weekend and fell in love with it. It didnt have all the minor things that annoyed me about my fox like a rattle noise I cant locate, and all the trim was perfect unlike mine and it was all one color lol, not to mention a perfect interior. But I walked away from it (couple different reasons, rust coming through some bondo spots was one). I decided to go back to square one on mine (I guess not really square one since it has come a long way). I'm fixing all the little things I dont like about it. First things first I'm getting the right driver side fender. I bought 2, one the guy sold me the wrong year (i was naive and didnt realize) and I also bought an aftermarket one which fits like absolute crap. I'm lining everything up, I'm going to sand and prep and get it painted. Which leads me to my first couple questions. What's the best technique to sand it? I bought an orbital sander, what number grit sandpapers should I use and do I block sand it all? Secondly how do I fix the dents that I pictured below?

And lastly this weekend I noticed the notch I checked out (engine bay in pic below is not from it) didnt have a tensioner. What's the reason theres no tensioner and how does it work? I'm sure the answer is probably simple. Glad to be back!

20190903_203453.jpg


Screenshot_20190903-203401_Photos.jpg

Screenshot_20190903-203354_Photos.jpg
I’m sleepy tonight, but if you remind me I’ll answer your paint questions tomorrow after work.
 
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FastDriver

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I run an adjustable rod on both of my setups. When you start messing around swapping accessories to different sides, using an adjustable rod to hold the alternator in the right place is easier than fabbing a bracket, and it looks cleaner, to me.
10JUN18_Snake pit2.jpg


In the blue car, I went from this:
1528438034851-png.png


To this:
1528438229228-png.png



Even though I like the way both of them look, the top adjuster slipped seemingly no matter how much I tightened the bolt. Plus, I had to use a pry bar to put the kind of tension on it needed to keep it from squealing. With the adjustment rod, I can get the tension perfect. 1/4 turn at a time until it stops squealing. I try to put bare minimum tension so that the belt has a little slack left to stretch on acceleration. It's not much, though.

That said, the tensioner is a better setup. When you rev or accelerate hard, you're putting a lot of pressure on the belt. The tensioner would relieve that pressure, but the adjustable rod won't. This will stretch the belt. Sometimes it'll shred it. There are stretch belts for cars that come from the factory without a tensioner. However, their sizes are very limited by comparison to the standard belts.
 

James V

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Hey @Davedacarpainter if you have time to explain tonight, figured I'd remind you. If not no big deal, whenever you get a chance I know how it is working 12+ hours and being too exhausted to type lol. But I have a couple other questions to throw in.

1. What number grits do I use
2. Block sand or orbital?
3. How to sand in small areas, like the bumper grill
4. How to fix those damaged areas
And I think that's all of my main ones