I hate owning GM

At least give Ford a hefty tax credit. I mean, if you, me, and some other people were all in business against each other and I'm about to run you out of town and expand my business (but wouldn't be a monopoly because there are still plenty of other choices) and then big brother swoops in to save you... I mean come one, at least be fair and say: "Ford, you didn't take any of the money we offered; so, to say thanks; here is a five year tax break/credit." But no, GM is now given an unfair advantage in what is supposidly a free market system.

Would you rather it be only Ford and imports? Besides all the jobs the country would be out of, Americans would be even more reliant on foreign goods. They'd undoubtedly up their prices too.

I'ld rather own a GM car then a Boreyota or a Hondork. Ever wonder why in Europe Japanese cars are only 15% of the market? BECAUSE THEY'RE BORING!!!!

Still, this is a Free Market. How would you feel if you were about to run my company down and Uncle Sam came in and gave your competitor tons of money? Jobs? Okay, where do you draw the line? There are lots of people saying why didn't Uncle Sam bail out my company and save my job. Do you save a company that employeess 500, 1000, 10,000... how do you decide? Look, if Ford managed; there's no reason GM or Dodge couldn't.

fox1x said:

Still, this is a Free Market. How would you feel if you were about to run my company down and Uncle Sam came in and gave your competitor tons of money? Jobs? Okay, where do you draw the line? There are lots of people saying why didn't Uncle Sam bail out my company and save my job. Do you save a company that employeess 500, 1000, 10,000... how do you decide? Look, if Ford managed; there's no reason GM or Dodge couldn't.

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IMO They should've let the banks go. Another can sprout up tomorrow in their place. If you let the American auto makers fail, it'll take years for another American auto company to get up and going, and who knows how long to become established enough to truly compete.

I'd rather own DC and GM than be owned by Asia.

oh9mustang said:

All my life I have been wishing General Motors would fail and now when they finally do we as taxpayers bail them out. This Su--s. Their cars are and have always been Cr-p. The new Camaro looks OK but is over priced, Like the Corvette.
Americans need to have a revolution against the idiots in congress.
My 09 mustang is beautiful, the Chevy Volt is ugly and stupid. IMO.


Bob Lutz

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A Corvette's overpriced, but a Shelby GT-500 isn't? How so? A standard 436 hp Corvette will eat a Shelby GT-500's lunch, and that's with 100 less hp; power to weight, bro. Not to mention, the Corvette has a much more sophisticated suspension than any Mustang ever had.

Is the new Camaro overpriced? I don't believe so; just overweight (and super ugly...). You're basically nearly getting a Cadillac CTS with a different engine (if you're after the SS). The V6 is the same engine from a CTS. Where else are you going to get an American V8 Muscle Car with 426 hp for $30k? A Mustang "Standard" GT runs 29k. A Mustang "Premium" GT runs about 32k. They're also down over 100 hp to the Camaro SS. Even if you get a good deal on a 2010 Mustang GT, you're still going to pay at least $27k for one. To even compete in an acceleration contest with a Camaro, you're going to either spend a ton on bolt-ons, or go the Roush Supercharger route, which is going to cost you at least $5k, and then it has to be dealer-installed to keep the warranty, which will probably cost at least another $1-2k.

I don't like the new Camaro any more than the most die-hard of Mustang fans, but facts are facts. As for the Corvette, on the other hand, say what you want, but there is no denying the fact that even a standard Corvette is a world-class performer. Step up to the Z06 and it's even better. ZR-1? There isn't anything on the road worth messing with short of Italy's finest.

As for the bail-out, I'm not happy that my tax money paid for it. There isn't a single car in GM's stable, aside from a Pontiac G8 GXP and a Corvette that I'd consider to be worth buying.

As for their cars being crap, I've owned nothing but GM cars, and they've all been fairly reliable up to about 130-150k before I started having issues with them. My wife and I just got rid of a 1997 Saturn SC1 with 200,000 miles on it that we never put anything into but a few batteries, a few sets of brakes, a few alternators, a few tires, and a tie-rod. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another GM vehicle, but they just simply don't have anything I'm interested in buying.

Would I consider myself a "GM guy?" Eh, of sorts. I'd take any of their classic Muscle, while I'd only take a few select classic Ford Muscle Cars(Thunderbolt, Boss Stangs, 1968 390ci GT, Shelby 427ci Cobra).

A new 2010 Mustang GT will be the first Ford I've ever owned, if all goes well and finances allow.

Not sure how a Corvette can be called overpriced when it outperforms any stock car on the road until you double its sticker price. But that's another arguement.

Let's keep in mind Ford CHOSE not to take bail out money. GM and DC aren't really getting free money from the government. It is more a loan that we are hoping gets repaid. We, the taxpayers, will theoretically get at least the money we put it, if not profit, once GM and DC turn around. Assuming it happens.

If GM did just go away, it would destroy the supply chain. It wouldn't be as simple as Ford sells more cars and hires more people. First GM would go out of business and all the workers would lose their jobs. Ford could hire a small few, but not all, of the workers to compensate for expected increased demand. Then many of the suppliers would go out of business since there are far fewer orders for parts. Simultaneously, people would start shopping for new cars. Some would buy Ford, some would buy foreign. Now after a short while later, there is an increased demand for Ford products. Ford tries to ramp up production. But guess what - their suppliers become maxed out on capacity. All those GM suppliers that went out of business are still out of business, so there isn't enough parts to build more cars. Now dealers don't have to give you as good of a deal on a new car since someone else will buy it for more (simple supply and demand). Meanwhile, THOUSANDS of workers are still out of jobs. They have no salary, so they buy fewer non-essential goods. The other industries begind to suffer from the reduced demand and begin to lay off some workers. And so on. Eventually, this will all balance itself out, but not before it wreaks havoc on the economy and auto industry. Face it, we need GM. Or we at least need a VERY slow, well planned departure from the market.

Stangdude2000, you are right on the mark.
People need to realize the ripple effects. All of the supply companies out there would go under and that would wreck havoc on many, many communities all across this country.

What is over priced is the KR 79k and zr1 103k. You can change the look with a few curves and badges but that does not make them actually worth 40 to 50k more worth of grnbacks.

The Fang said:

What is over priced is the KR 79k and zr1 103k. You can change the look with a few curves and badges but that does not make them actually worth 40 to 50k more worth of grnbacks.

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IMO, all vehicles are overpriced...except maybe some car by an Indian manufacturer called "Tata," whom I believe just picked up Jaguar. They have a vehicle that I've seen in a few magazines that apparently costs $2000-$4000, brand new. No, it's not here in the States, and it surely is an ugly little bugger, hardly fast enough to hit the national speed limits, but whatever the case, it will hold two people, has windows, and has a roof over-head.

I wonder how people are enjoying their Air Jordans they paid $128 for. I'm sure they'd like'em a lot less when they found out they cost $7 to manufacture, if that.

Is the ZR-1 worth $103k? I dunno, but its competitors cost well over $200k. All things considered, from that standpoint I'd say the ZR-1 is quite the bargain.

Mention was made that the Shelby GT-500 was junk. I hardly think it's junk, but it is one Hell of a heavy car. Knock about 500 lbs out of it, and my opinion would be much higher of the Shelby GT-500 than what it is.

oh9mustang said:

In AMERICA people have vastly different incomes and what they believe is a "Good deal" is just as diverse. If I made 1 million a year then a $80,000 car is no big deal, over priced or not. Buuuuuuuut Most Americans don't make that money and a $80,000 car is an over priced vehicle. Shelby's , to some are well with in their means and to them, worth it, just like Corvettes, I say Whooo, Whoo good for them, The reality is Shelby's and Corvettes are over priced, just because some have to much money, don't change that.
I stilllll don't want to own any part of GM. and our Administration don't care If I want to or not. To them, I need to be driving an electric GM and give all minorities any excess money I have. I say F that. I like my Mustang V8 kick in the Ash acceleration and what we AMERICANS want is for Florida and California to start off shore oil drilling cause I just don't care about no stupid Spotted Owl, or some Swamp frog. The election of 2010 will tell the tail, and HOPEFULLY bring our great country out of this (I don't know what to call it) mess that the current party has us in.

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Well, the good news for you is that you don't own any of GM, the government just expects you to shell out your hard-earned money for them.

Don't blame me, I don't vote.

And FWIW, blame GWB. He's the one that started this mess, while our Kenyan president is stuck with it in his lap.

The government owns shares of GM which has taxpayer money sunk into it. While we don't "own" it in being able to sell it whenever we individually choose, we, as a group of taxpayers who don't get to make our own decisions, do own it. If GM fails, we don't get our money back.

Also, without getting too much into politics... yes we do get to blame you if you don't vote. You could've voted for a candidate who would have policies you agree with, even if they lost. Ever see the movie Swing Vote? It's an interesting concept... If you don't vote, you also don't get to complain. About anything.

If you REALLY want to spread some blame, the issue actually stretches all the way back to the Clinton administration. It was his administration that pressured the banks to becomes significantly more lenient handing out sub-prime mortgages. That's not saying G-Dub couldn't have done something about it, but at the same time, who would've known we'd have a perfect storm of economic forces come together to create the situation we're in.

stangdude2000 said:

The government owns shares of GM which has taxpayer money sunk into it. While we don't "own" it in being able to sell it whenever we individually choose, we, as a group of taxpayers who don't get to make our own decisions, do own it. If GM fails, we don't get our money back.

Also, without getting too much into politics... yes we do get to blame you if you don't vote. You could've voted for a candidate who would have policies you agree with, even if they lost. Ever see the movie Swing Vote? It's an interesting concept... If you don't vote, you also don't get to complain. About anything.

If you REALLY want to spread some blame, the issue actually stretches all the way back to the Clinton administration. It was his administration that pressured the banks to becomes significantly more lenient handing out sub-prime mortgages. That's not saying G-Dub couldn't have done something about it, but at the same time, who would've known we'd have a perfect storm of economic forces come together to create the situation we're in.

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I'm going to have to disagree with you. I neither helped nor hindered the situation that we are in by not voting. Both candidates were/are idiots, and I couldn't in good conscience vote for either one of them.

I don't want to swing this thread into a political direction, because political threads never do anybody any good. PM sent.

Top Speed said:

Well, the good news for you is that you don't own any of GM, the government just expects you to shell out your hard-earned money for them.

Don't blame me, I don't vote.

And FWIW, blame GWB. He's the one that started this mess, while our Kenyan president is stuck with it in his lap.

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Honestly, if you don't vote, you really can't have a say so in what's going on politically. Again, not trying to make this a political thread.

If your wife asks you what you want for dinner, and you say "I don't care", you're going to get what she gives you. You don't have much ground to complain, as you didn't give your input.

I also agree that if you don't vote, you have not right to complain.
Look at the people in the world right now trying to get a voice in government.
Those who have died for our right to vote should be honored by us actually voting.

Remember when Al Gore won the popular vote over GWB, but somehow GWB ended up in office anyway?

That's all I'll say here on that subject. Political threads get ugly, and I'm not going to participate in one, but I'll be more than happy to answer any PMs sent my way regarding the subject.