Info on future V6 engine

Brad Barnett of TheMustangSource.com attended the launch celebration and had a chance to interview Hau Thai-Tang (chief designer of the '05) and asked him that very question:

TMS: There were some early rumors of replacing the 4.0 V6 with the Duratec. How long to you plan to keep the current V6?
HTT: We have no plans of replacing the V6.

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Read the full interview at:

http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=6436

First of all the 4.0L V6 in the 2005 Mustang already is "torquey" with 240 lb ft. lb. at a relatively low 3,500 RPM

Second, the imports you refer to do NOT have V8 engines available, so they have to put their best face on with their little V6s.

With a healty V8 available, there is essentually NO market for a high performance V6 in the Mustang. In an interview (Autoweek?) John Coletti (head of SVT) said that SVT had studied doing a high performance V6 for the Mustang more than once. In the end they kept reaching the same conclusion. "Because of the available V8s, the market for a high performance V6 Mustang is so small, that they cannot justify the development and marketing costs" Translation - it would be a money looser.

To confirm what Tom posted, everyone but me seems to have forgotten this, but many months ago a Ford engineer from the Cologne plant (where the 4.0 V6 is designed and manufactured) sent Brand an e-mail that said the following.

1. The V6 is very much under rated. It actually puts out OVER 220 HP. The torque is also considerably higher than 240 lb ft.

2. Cologne has not been told of any plans to replace the 4.0L V6 in the new Mustang. Cologne has made production plans for manufacturing the 4.0L V6 for the new Mustang for at least 5 years.

3. Higher HP & torque versions of the 4.0L are under development. Expect to see something within 2 years.

Look for the upmarket Duratec eventually in vehicles like the new Ford 500 (Taurus replacement) to help it try and compete in the Accord/Camry market - although I doubt that will be enough.

While I can understand Ford's reluctance to develop a high-performance V6 engine from scratch, or even developing new heads/intake/cam combinations for an existing engine, why not just drop in a better replacement V6 than the 4.0L? Emissions testing and R&D costs will be about the same as for the 4.0L.

Is the Duratec a DOHC engine? Costs of manufacture over an SOHC 4.0L could be a possible issue, and lower fleet mileage ratings with a more powerful engine could be as well.

Of course, the cynical answer is that Ford ultimately wants a Mustang buyer who wants more power to purchase the higher priced and higher profit margin GT or limited edition Mustangs.

Yes I agree with the original post. Ford 4.0l V6 is quite underpowered. Within the same league Acura's 2.4l I4 produces 200 hp, BMW 2.5l I6 produces 192, 3.0l I6 produces 225/235 hp (depending upon model), 3.2l I6 333 hp, 2.8l I6 194 hp, Nissan's 3.5l V6 produces 285 hp and it's variants as in the Infiniti G35 sedan coupe ranges from 265 thru 285 hp, Lexus IS 300 215 hp from 3.0l I6.Honda S2k 240 hp from 2.2l I4

The reason most of the imports are able to extract more hp from relatively smaller sized engines is because they deploy variances in cam timing and lift using different techniques. For instances all BMW engines induce variation in intake and exhaust valve timing to overlap or underlap each other in relation to engine speed. The valve lift does not change but creates a seamless overlap or underlap by the Double VANOS (VAriable NOckenWellen Steureng) system. The bigger and newer BMW engines such as the V8 also deploy variable valve lift technology called Valvetronic alongwith Bi-VANOS. The future of valve lift and timing is now extended without cams and springs but rather by the use of pneumatic or a hydro-pneumatic system. This would be really impressive because it would mean upwards of 350 hp from small 3.0l I6'es or V8's or V10's.

Honda/Acura achieves the same a bit differently by deploying V-TEC or Variable Valve Timing with Electronic Lift Control and what it does is, it actuates, by the means of a electromagnetic/hydraulic system to engage a different set of lobes to vary the lift and timing of the valves. Consider the S2k, between 500-3k rpm the engine operates in a street mode, between 3-6k rpm the second set of lobes are engaged which behaves in a sport mode while upwards of 6k the 3rd set of lobes are engaged which behave like a race mode. So unlike the Vanos it's not seamless but it has a greater band of power albeit with less operating torque.

Toyota deploys VVTI or Variable Valve Timing with Intelligence and it's just another way of achieving change in valve lift & timing.

While all the above mentioned tehcnology have one thing in common they have relatively less ground pounding torque unlike the bigger V6's or V8's of the American counterparts. The higher power o/p is achieved by broadening the torque curve throughout the rev band. So while the compromise is slightly less low end torque, it is carried over the power band resulting in greater power. Remember hp is a virtual derived unit, it's only based upon available torque and the sustenance of torque over a unit amount of time.

But all this technology have one thing in common and they require more or less a DOHC configuration, because the optimum spread of the torque curve can be attained by altering the timing intake and exhaust valves as well as the lift. Thus increasing the number of intake from one-two and the exhast from one-two benefits as thus the Double Overhead Configuration.

Coming back to the 4.0l V6 of the Mustange, the reason it has 240lb ft of torque at 3.5k rpm is because of it's size. Since it's based on the old pushrod tech with one intake and exhaust there is not much room to make this engine elastic. Hence the torque peaks out around midrange and the fall of the curve results in a relatively meagre peak power of 210 hp towards the top end (say 5500 rpm).

But deploy the right technique such as supercharged single vanos SOHC or bi-vanos dohc 4.6l v6 with valvetronic or Vtec or vvti the 4.0l V6 will beat the 4.6l V8 in terms of power. But there is the money factor hence for now Ford is contend to play with the pushrod 4.0l V6. giving a 100 hp spread between the v6 and v8 .

sparky said - "Anything to stop the progression of the import explosion is a good thing to me, and Ford is definately on the right track! "

I'd conclude otherwise with regard to Ford being on the right track. Both Ford and GM continue to bleed market share - they have for the last 25 years. Daimler-Chrysler had a bit of an uptick this year, however I suspect that too will be temporary. As soon as folks realize their new crop of rear-drive 'hemi' powered vehicles have the same abysmal quality that most of Chrysler's line has had historically, those buyers will make different choices too. Were it not for their sheer size, based on their performance relative to other car companies over the last quarter century, both Ford and GM would be out of business, or merged/acquired by someone else as Chrysler was.

The reason Ford and the other domestic manufacturers are not on the 'right track' is because they've shown a consistent inability to produce quality vehicles that are competitive globally in the Corolla/Civic/Camry/Accord market. Ford/GM don't seem to be able to come up with one on their own, and they either refuse or don't know how to copy someone else's success. Ford's new "500", designed to compete in that market segment, has already left testers wanting based on reaction to the early pre-production models. Will it be better than the Taurus/Sable it replaces? Yes. The problem is 'better' isn't nearly good enough.

Today, when the other manufacturers bring out a new car in those segments, they aren't just incrementally better than their previous offerings - they are orders of magnitude better. Ford and GM historically have been completely incapable of that in their 'bread and butter' cars. Unless/until they have some breakthrough competitively in that car segment - they will continue to lose share. Their consistent winners have been largely confined to 'niche' segments (Mustang/Corvette/Caddy for example) and their truck/truck-related segments. Cars like the Mustang/Corvette/Caddy simply don't have enough volume at their price points to make a huge difference. And Ford/GM are coming under increasing fire in the truck segments from both non-domestic competition and from higher real oil prices. Adding to the problem is that the buyers they've lost - beginning in large numbers with part of the baby boom generation, and most of generation X, historically have not come back to domestic makers as time goes by. On the contrary - the success of brands like Acura, Lexus and Infinity has been based on the fact that once buyers stray from domestic companies, they're looking to 'move up' with the non-domestic competition. Strategically, it does not look good for either company. And culturally, both company's leadership seem incapable of solving the problem.

The Mustang will be a hit for it's target audience. The problem is that Ford needs MUCH MORE than that right now to be considered 'on the right track'. I've been consistently predicting it for the last 5 years or so. Don't know exactly when it will happen, but unless there's a HUGE shift in culture and leadership in both companies (GM/Ford) they will have to merge/be acquired to continue to exist. And I don't think their pride will allow them do that with a non-US based company. That leaves one option - given that bigger usually has it's way in these things - you can plan on your Mustang being 'GM' badged at some point in the future unless they figure it out in a hurry. Sadly, even that will only be a temporary fix for these two lumbering 'oafs'.


Sean - nice post; I'd add Porsche's new 'S' 911 3.8L and the new M5 5.0L powerplants to the list of non-domestic 'over achievers'. Porsche have squeezed 350HP out of a 3.8L flat-six naturally aspirated; the new M5 motor is a 5.0L V-10 naturally aspirated - 503HP at 7900 rpm with a redline at 8250. Kinda makes last year's Cobra with 390HP out of 4.6 supercharged liters look, well, puny. 351CJ - seems to me that Ford are the ones that are having trouble keeping up, not everyone else's 'little V6's'.

The '05's 300HP 4.6L may look great compared to what was available in the same car in '04. But on the global front, it doesn't really stack up. Once again - it's incremental change, rather than the break-through, order of magnitude change that's required to be successful in today's markets.

It occurs to me given Sean's list, that some of you will cry 'yeah, but they're more expensive'. Well, save your breath. Yes, they're more expensive - and guess what - they're STILL taking market share away; duh - that's WHY they're taking market share away - they're putting content INTO their cars. Ford/GM aren't going to 'rebate and incentive' their way back to the top. Why is it they can come up with $3000-$7000 per vehicle for advertising/rebates/incentives/special marketing programs, but they can't come up with that same money per vehicle for product development? Simple - they've got their strategic priorities in the wrong place; it ain't rocket surgery to everyone else, but apparently it is to Ford/GM. And until/unless they discover that for themselves, well, let's put it this way - I can hear the fat lady warming up off-stage.

Edit footnote - perhaps Ford is beginning to see the light. I read last night where the new Euro-Focus (we can't get that one yet - another Ford blunder) hi/po model for 2006 will be powered by one of Volvo's turbo-5 cylinder engines. Ford concluded their internally developed 4-cylinder didn't have enough 'umph'. Perhaps the tiniest sliver of light under the heavy door at the back of a long, dank, very dark tunnel. IF they pay attention - and I doubt they'll do it quickly enough - Volvo will be Ford's savior; Subaru will be GM's.

sparky_SIUE said:

My report suggested nothing of a high-performance V6, but a competitive V6. It seems as though you believe i'm knocking the 4.0L, when in fact i was only stating that a replacement with more hp/tq may be coming. I'm sorry if you were offended with the import comparison, but i would love to be able to say the base Mustang for 20k can hang with the top model sixers of the imports Anything to stop the progression of the import explosion is a good thing to me, and Ford is definately on the right track!

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First, you apparantely missed 351CJ's comment about development work on 4.0L to get more power from it. Secondly, give me a list of import "sixers" that can had with the top of line 6 cylinder for under $20K?

Tom - I know your comment wasn't aimed at me, but I'd like to respond anyway. Your mindset - that Ford can come out ahead by winning on price alone - is what is killing domestic manufacturers. The way Ford/GM need to think about it if they're gonna win in the long run is that they have to produce a competitive powerplant AND win on price. That's breakthrough thinking. The reason they've been on the decline as long as they have is that they've insisted on selling less content for less money. The general public ain't buying that. Literally.

Oh - and it's only gonna get worse. Korea is starting to worry Japan - Japan is moving up market because they're having a harder time competing on the price point. And the Korean quality is growing even more quickly than the Japanese quality was when they first came to our markets. Ford/GM are being squeezed hard - on both ends of the segment. Ironic that an old Motown group should have a song that describes it so aptly - Martha Reeves and the Vandellas - "No where to run, no where to hide".

Michael Yount said:

Tom - I know your comment wasn't aimed at me, but I'd like to respond anyway. Your mindset - that Ford can come out ahead by winning on price alone - is what is killing domestic manufacturers. The way Ford/GM need to think about it if they're gonna win in the long run is that they have to produce a competitive powerplant AND win on price. That's breakthrough thinking. The reason they've been on the decline as long as they have is that they've insisted on selling less content for less money. The general public ain't buying that. Literally.

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Again, there's 351CJ's comment about developing more power for the 4.0L. We also have the new 3.5L Duratec coming as well as your comment about Ford sourcing the Volvo I-5. We also have Ford using platforms from some of it's other nameplates (Volvo and Mazda) to develop excellent platforms for those engines. The Mustang V8, which produces 320HP (based upon some early dyno results) with only 281 cubic inches and on 87 octane, is pretty impressive. They're adding AWD and CVTs to some of their mainstream vehicles. I just don't see things being quite so doom and gloom as you do. Yes, it's going to be a struggle but I do see Ford going in the right direction. Whether they succeed of not, history will tell.

Wow you guys like to talk LOL.Anyways thats pretty nice that it will have more power...wonder when they will up it to 260HP like mine was stock.

Sean`03///Zed4 said:

Yes I agree with the original post. Ford 4.0l V6 is quite underpowered. Within the same league Acura's 2.4l I4 produces 200 hp, BMW 2.5l I6 produces 192, 3.0l I6 produces 225/235 hp (depending upon model), 3.2l I6 333 hp, 2.8l I6 194 hp, Nissan's 3.5l V6 produces 285 hp and it's variants as in the Infiniti G35 sedan coupe ranges from 265 thru 285 hp, Lexus IS 300 215 hp from 3.0l I6.Honda S2k 240 hp from 2.2l I4

The reason most of the imports are able to extract more hp from relatively smaller sized engines is because they deploy variances in cam timing and lift using different techniques. For instances all BMW engines induce variation in intake and exhaust valve timing to overlap or underlap each other in relation to engine speed. The valve lift does not change but creates a seamless overlap or underlap by the Double VANOS (VAriable NOckenWellen Steureng) system. The bigger and newer BMW engines such as the V8 also deploy variable valve lift technology called Valvetronic alongwith Bi-VANOS. The future of valve lift and timing is now extended without cams and springs but rather by the use of pneumatic or a hydro-pneumatic system. This would be really impressive because it would mean upwards of 350 hp from small 3.0l I6'es or V8's or V10's.

Honda/Acura achieves the same a bit differently by deploying V-TEC or Variable Valve Timing with Electronic Lift Control and what it does is, it actuates, by the means of a electromagnetic/hydraulic system to engage a different set of lobes to vary the lift and timing of the valves. Consider the S2k, between 500-3k rpm the engine operates in a street mode, between 3-6k rpm the second set of lobes are engaged which behaves in a sport mode while upwards of 6k the 3rd set of lobes are engaged which behave like a race mode. So unlike the Vanos it's not seamless but it has a greater band of power albeit with less operating torque.

Toyota deploys VVTI or Variable Valve Timing with Intelligence and it's just another way of achieving change in valve lift & timing.

While all the above mentioned tehcnology have one thing in common they have relatively less ground pounding torque unlike the bigger V6's or V8's of the American counterparts. The higher power o/p is achieved by broadening the torque curve throughout the rev band. So while the compromise is slightly less low end torque, it is carried over the power band resulting in greater power. Remember hp is a virtual derived unit, it's only based upon available torque and the sustenance of torque over a unit amount of time.

But all this technology have one thing in common and they require more or less a DOHC configuration, because the optimum spread of the torque curve can be attained by altering the timing intake and exhaust valves as well as the lift. Thus increasing the number of intake from one-two and the exhast from one-two benefits as thus the Double Overhead Configuration.

Coming back to the 4.0l V6 of the Mustange, the reason it has 240lb ft of torque at 3.5k rpm is because of it's size. Since it's based on the old pushrod tech with one intake and exhaust there is not much room to make this engine elastic. Hence the torque peaks out around midrange and the fall of the curve results in a relatively meagre peak power of 210 hp towards the top end (say 5500 rpm).

But deploy the right technique such as supercharged single vanos SOHC or bi-vanos dohc 4.6l v6 with valvetronic or Vtec or vvti the 4.0l V6 will beat the 4.6l V8 in terms of power. But there is the money factor hence for now Ford is contend to play with the pushrod 4.0l V6. giving a 100 hp spread between the v6 and v8 .

Click to expand...

Wow, that was the biggest trying-to-sound-smart post I've ever read.

It's all cost and marketing. Nothing to do with technology. There's no market for a high-output V6, without cannibalising V8 sales. If you want performance, buy a V8. If you just want to look good in a Mustang, get a V6. That's been Ford's recipe for decades, and they're smart to stick with it.

I have owned 3 V6 Mustangs (married into an '84, and bought for myself a '95 and '00), and I agree. I would not want to pay an extra ~$1500-2000 for a 3.5L Duratec in a V6 Mustang. The new V6 will be capable of running 14s - when has that ever not been fast enough. Even the old V6es ran mid-15s to mid-16s. The only reason you'd need to go faster is if you're really serious about racing.

If the new Mustang had a backseat, I'd have bought another one instead of the LS I just bought.

DanM said - "It's all cost and marketing. Nothing to do with technology."

I don't think you could be further from the truth - although following your line of reasoning is what has gotten GM/Ford into such trouble over the years. GM's decade-long approach to run their business under the banner of "branding (all cost and marketing) was a complete and utter failure resulting in an accelerated loss of market share, as well as all the folks associated with it losing their jobs. Works great with soap and toothpaste; doesn't work at all with cars. It's ALL about technology, content and process. It's the PRODUCT that people get emotionally attached to for the long term - not the marketing campaign or the price they paid. Cost/marketing will give you a short term reprieve by bringing in some cash, but without real product innovation, the bleeding will continue.

Oh - Tom - I don't see it as doom and gloom at all. I think it's the most exciting time for new car and new product development since I've been on the planet. The performance and value that's available in all segments is better than it's ever been. Couldn't be less doom and gloom -- for those that are leading the way. Unfortunately, when taken as a whole, GM and Ford have been following instead of leading for quite some time now.

Michael Yount said:

Oh - Tom - I don't see it as doom and gloom at all. I think it's the most exciting time for new car and new product development since I've been on the planet. The performance and value that's available in all segments is better than it's ever been. Couldn't be less doom and gloom -- for those that are leading the way. Unfortunately, when taken as a whole, GM and Ford have been following instead of leading for quite some time now.

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OK, my misunderstanding on your outlook of the situation. I will agree that Ford and GM have been following. In Ford's case, I lay that at the feet of Nasser and his cronies. I think Bill Ford is trying to change that and hopefully he can do it Their plans are good. Let's just hope they can execute them.

Michael Yount said:

DanM said - "It's all cost and marketing. Nothing to do with technology."

I don't think you could be further from the truth - although following your line of reasoning is what has gotten GM/Ford into such trouble over the years. GM's decade-long approach to run their business under the banner of "branding (all cost and marketing) was a complete and utter failure resulting in an accelerated loss of market share, as well as all the folks associated with it losing their jobs. Works great with soap and toothpaste; doesn't work at all with cars. It's ALL about technology, content and process. It's the PRODUCT that people get emotionally attached to for the long term - not the marketing campaign or the price they paid. Cost/marketing will give you a short term reprieve by bringing in some cash, but without real product innovation, the bleeding will continue.

Click to expand...

What you wrote doesn't apply to the Mustang. I agree that Accords and Camrys are wiping the floor with Grand Prixs, but we're not talking about family sedans here. We're talking about the Mustang, which is an entirely different beast. Indeed it's probably one of, if not the only car left on the planet that's more about name and symbolism (marketing) and affordability (cost) than the actual product.

The SN95 is a piece of ****. Total crap, by today's car standards. But they still sold like crazy. Ford could simply have plunked the new sheet metal over the same body, and they would've continued to sell like crazy.

I happen to agree with you that that line of thinking is what's gotten Ford and GM into trouble, but I think it still applies 100% correctly to the Mustang. I would argue that Mustang is one of the only cars left that ISN'T about product (so long as it's V8 and RWD). Think about it.

The bottom line is that the old Mustang has been selling over 140,000 cars per year. Between 1999 and today, Ford has sold approximately 900,000 SN-95 Mustangs. This makes the Mustang, by far the class leader. The 2 door coupe is a dying breed. Some good examples are the Celica which is being discontinued, the Camaro / Firebird which have been discontinued and the abysmal sales of the new GTO.

You guys are comparing apples to oranges. I don't want Ford (or GM) to build clones of Japanese or Euro cars. If I wanted a car like a Japanese car, I would just buy a Japanese car.

Given the price points, the V6 Mustang competes with the I4 engines you guys mentioned and does it very well. The V8 also competes very nicely with the import V6s that you talk about for the same $.

I don't want a high RPM, high HP, LOW torque I4 or V6. What I want (and every yeary 140,000 other Mustang customers appear to want too) are high torque engines that deliver good torgue at low RPM. This is what Ford is delivering.

The Mustang has been the market segment leader for 40 consecutive years. Ford will sell EVERY 2005 Mustang that it can build, which is 195,000 of them. The Mustang will sell over 4 times as many units as its closest competitor.

Why in the world would Ford want to copy Japanese cars that sell 20,000 units per year?