Let's talk 1911's.

jlangholzj · Feb 8, 2012

MY thought process is if you need more than 2-3 rounds you're doing it wrong and you either 1) shouldn't be in that kinda of situation or 2) shouldn't be carrying a gun. Also some points that durden brought up being the intricacies of operating the gun, made it part of the reason why our instructor told us that it may not be the idea carry gun UNLESS you go practice with it. That being said, he was carrying a 3" compact 1911 with an extra mag when he was telling us this...LOL...but its for the exact reason of 1) you have to carry condition 1 otherwise its of no use to you and 2) there's some other things like safety operation that aren't nearly as "stupid proof" as the other guns.

Also this weekend i went and shot my dads S&W model 28 and burned through 4 boxes of shells with it. I realized how much you REALLY have to shoot your gun to get used to it. I was pulling hard right, from the double action trigger, once i pulled the hammer back and started shooting it was dead nuts every time. THEN i could start working back to using the double action. So pretty much no matter what gun you choose to carry, you're gonna have to know how to shoot it.

D Durden · Feb 8, 2012

jlangholzj said:
MY thought process is if you need more than 2-3 rounds you're doing it wrong and you either 1) shouldn't be in that kinda of situation or 2) shouldn't be carrying a gun.

Okay, while that sounds REALLY good, here’s the issue. Two or three rounds means, typically, there’s only one person you’re having to engage. So, what you’re saying is that if you have to engage more than one person, then THE DEFENDER is obviously doing something wrong. That’s hardly the case. The defender has no real responsibility in a multiple assailant situation. Even against one person, what if they’re behind cover and you need a few extra rounds. What if it’s dark? What if you don’t have your glasses. What if the first round blinded you in the dark house? What if the guy has an attack dog? What if you have to get through the windshield? What if the first round is a dud? What if you have to dry cycle 2 or 3 times in order to clear the weapon? What if the guy is wearing thick clothing? What if he’s not kind enough to stand still? What if you have to be moving when you shoot?

Pretty much I can agree with what you’re saying given the following prerequisites:
1. The person you’re shooting gives you time to aim.
2. There is plenty of light.
3. There’s only one person. If there is more than one person, they must stay still longer for you to get the headshots you’ll need for handgun one-shot kills.
4. There’s no cover.
5. You’re ready to shoot.
6. The gun works flawlessly.
7. The ammunition works flawlessly.
8. The bullet works flawlessly.
9. You don’t have to move.
10. The shot is in a very comfortable range.

As long as all of that is in effect, I agree that all you should need is 2 or 3 rounds.

Also some points that durden brought up being the intricacies of operating the gun, made it part of the reason why our instructor told us that it may not be the idea carry gun UNLESS you go practice with it.

Well put.

That being said, he was carrying a 3" compact 1911 with an extra mag when he was telling us this...LOL...

True, but what I’m seeing now is the people carrying 1911’s are generally old i.e. they’re from a time when the 1911 was the ONLY semi-automatic acceptable, young i.e. they like the mystique of the 1911, or they’re strict competition shooters. Most of the 35-50 year old guys I see shooting HAVE a 1911 but carry something else because they’ve lived in a time when the 1911 wasn’t the only choice AND they’re past the mystique stage of their lives.

but its for the exact reason of 1) you have to carry condition 1 otherwise its of no use to you and 2) there's some other things like safety operation that aren't nearly as "stupid proof" as the other guns.

We agree. The 1911 MUST be carried in condition 1, and being in such condition, the person carrying the weapon must train for a long period of time to always, 100% get the safety . . . which is humanly impossible, BUT you can be really good at it.

I have a challenge for ANY 1911 person, and it’s this. Let’s go to the range. I’ll bring a random non-shooter and a Glock. They can bring their 1911. We’ll lay each gun on a table, the 1911 in Condition 1 (C&L) and the Glock with the slide cycled. We’ll have the novice pick up the Glock and shoot it (dry) and the expert does the same with the 1911. The FIRST PERSON who misses the safety when they pull the trigger gives their gun to the other guy as a prize. I’ve never had a 1911 shooter take me up on it. The bet is open to anyone.

Also this weekend i went and shot my dads S&W model 28 and burned through 4 boxes of shells with it. I realized how much you REALLY have to shoot your gun to get used to it. I was pulling hard right, from the double action trigger, once i pulled the hammer back and started shooting it was dead nuts every time. THEN i could start working back to using the double action. So pretty much no matter what gun you choose to carry, you're gonna have to know how to shoot it.

Well put. Now, I’ll offer up this. I’m willing to bet that if I brought one of my handguns shooting with you (or the other 1911 people), and the first few times you would have shot it you would have pulled hard right, you would have handed the gun back to me, told me it was terrible, and run back to your 1911. The difference here is that the gun was your DAD’S and you had a vested interest in shooting it well. J You have a REASON to learn to shoot it. And it shot well.

For what it’s worth, a couple of hundred rounds is a decent familiarization shooting. It’s a great start. The USPSA “casual” competition I shot last I lost count after 400 rounds of 9mm. It’s amazing how many rounds it takes to get really comfortable with a gun, and that particular gun is based on a model I’m VERY comfy with.

jlangholzj · Feb 8, 2012

D Durden said:
1. The person you’re shooting gives you time to aim.
2. There is plenty of light.
3. There’s only one person. If there is more than one person, they must stay still longer for you to get the headshots you’ll need for handgun one-shot kills.
4. There’s no cover.
5. You’re ready to shoot.
6. The gun works flawlessly.
7. The ammunition works flawlessly.
8. The bullet works flawlessly.
9. You don’t have to move.
10. The shot is in a very comfortable range.

As long as all of that is in effect, I agree that all you should need is 2 or 3 rounds.

1. you really shouldn't need to "aim" persay as much as lining everything up, its kinda like trap shooting, you never really aim at the clay. if you're having to aim and shoot something thats 50 yards away then im not all that sure you should be using a handgun somuch as a shotgun or something else.
2. if you can't see the person well enough then i see no reason for you to be shooting, you're responsible for every round you put down range and unless you're certain of where its going, then you shouldn't be shooting. Either that or its an extremely dark alley and at that point, what exactly were you doing there anyway?
3. i can see this as being a valid excuse for having more rounds
4. we're not talking about shootouts here, we're talking about carry for self-defense. the only applicable situation i could see involving "cover" is in the home. At that point you should have easy access to another mag and lots of amo.
5. not sure where the argument is here.
6. if it doesn't then why the HELL are you using it as a carry gun?
7. same argument as 6
8. same argument as 7 and 6
(to just put more thought into those, i know nothings ever going to work "flawlessly" but if it fails so much to the point that its not reliable, then you should not be using it)
9. not sure why you're moving around all over the place to begin with
10. somebody who's attacking you is going to be in a very "uncomfortable" range.

you bring up some very good points but keep in mind that we're talking about self defense, not being deployed to iraq or being an on duty officer. Also this argument holds just as true for people who carry revolvers, hell law enforcement did it for a number of years.

Also just as kind of an "fyi" i didn't have any vested interest because it was my old mans gun (although we are rather competitive ). I've shot competitively in multiple disciplines and although NONE of them were in handguns, one thing that it did teach me was that if you're not hitting the target, you're doing something wrong. every weapon i've ever used has the potential to be an extremely accurate weapon, yes some do it better than others but as long as your using it correctly, it will work well. So the only reason why I kept shooting was because i KNEW i could do better and then proved it to myself.

jlangholzj · Feb 8, 2012

and DAMNIT DURDEN cahnge your frickin font color!

D Durden · Feb 8, 2012

jlangholzj said:
1. you really shouldn't need to "aim" persay as much as lining everything up, its kinda like trap shooting, you never really aim at the clay. if you're having to aim and shoot something thats 50 yards away then im not all that sure you should be using a handgun somuch as a shotgun or something else.

If you’re hoping for consistent kills with 2 shots from a handgun, you’re going to have to do something better than “generally center mass” . . . opinion, of course. Of course, to me combat “aiming” is tracking the front sight and making sure it’s over the target zone while trying to make sure the back sight is in good shape, too. To me, though, that’s still “aiming”.

2. if you can't see the person well enough then i see no reason for you to be shooting, you're responsible for every round you put down range and unless you're certain of where its going, then you shouldn't be shooting.

The bad guy is in a car. I need to keep his head down. Firing into the car is a lovely idea.

The bad guy is in my house. My son’s room is between me and the bad guy. I may find it to my advantage to toss a few bullets his way to deter any further progress up the hall.

The bad guy ducks behind cover to reload his weapon. It’s probably a good idea to toss a few rounds into the cover to a) look for a weak spot or b) delay his action as long as possible.

And yeah, I’m responsible for every round I put down range. Then again, TECHNICALLY, I’m responsible for every round HE tosses downrange at me . . . because I could be killing him instead of waiting for a legally responsible and defensible in court shot. In a gunfight, honestly, I’ll worry about where my bullets go AFTER me and the ones I’m protecting are safe. This is like waiting to get onto the lifeboat before everyone has their safety briefing on proper small boat handling . . . as the boat is sinking. J

Either that or its an extremely dark alley and at that point, what exactly were you doing there anyway?

It’s the only place to park at the martial arts store in Memphis.

I was there on a witness trip with my local church.

I’m helping a friend of mine move out of his apartment in Memphis.

I saw someone pulling a lady into the alley and I wanted to see if she was okay.

Lazer and Doc were passed out there . . . and I was stealing their wallets before anyone else did.

I was escorting my daughter’s friend out of her apartment and away from her abusive boyfriend.

My wife has to park there for her job (ask Lisa about her previous job).

We’re delivering some food to a down on their luck family (my church does this).

I was rescuing a dog from an abusive home.

Does it really matter why I’m there? I have the right to protect my life anywhere I am.

3. i can see this as being a valid excuse for having more rounds

Thanks. It is sort of a tough one to argue. It’s possibly the best reason.

4. we're not talking about shootouts here, we're talking about carry for self-defense.

After reading that, all I can hear is Peter Sellars saying “GENTLEMEN, THIS IS THE WAR ROOM! THERE’S NO FIGHTING IN THE WAR ROOM!” Sorry!

the only applicable situation i could see involving "cover" is in the home.

A man comes into a store with a shotgun and says it’s a robbery. Cover is a HUGE issue here.

Lisa is being followed in a parking lot. Cover is a HUGE issue here.

A man kicks the door of a friend’s house. Cover is a HUGE issue here.

A crazy man comes into my place of business. Cover is a HUGE issue here.

A lunatic comes into my church shooting. Cover is a HUGE issue here.

A lunatic comes into a McDonalds and starts shooting. Cover is a HUGE issue here.

A lunatic starts shooting into a crowd from his car. Cover is a HUGE issue here.

See what I mean?

At that point you should have easy access to another mag and lots of amo.

Should . . . is the operative word here. Home defense is another meal for another day. Odds are, my philosophies on it won’t be popular, either.

5. not sure where the argument is here.

What I mean is that IF you’re going to successfully stop a person with 2 or 3 shots with 100% reliability i.e. magazine capacity is NEVER an issue, then you’d better be ready to shoot. You’d better be perfect with every round. You’d better not flinch. You’d better not be impaired in any way. You’d better not snag the gun pulling it out. You’d better not miss the safety. It had better be in ready condition. Basically, to shoot perfectly, you have to be perfectly prepared.

6. if it doesn't then why the HELL are you using it as a carry gun?

Guns malfunction . . . ANY gun can. If you’re going to bet your life on a MAXIMUM of 3 shots, the gun MUST be perfect. You’re leaving NOTHING to chance.

7. same argument as 6

People use old ammunition, inferior ammunition, and reloads all the time in self-defense. Again, if you’re going to say you only need 2 0r 3 rounds to win a gunfight your it’s YOUR fault, your ammunition can never, ever, ever fail . . . ever. I’ve had bad but high quality ammo before.

8. same argument as 7 and 6

Same counterpoint. It’s got to be PERFECT if you’re going to put perfection as your judgment for being a gunfighter.

(to just put more thought into those, i know nothings ever going to work "flawlessly" but if it fails so much to the point that its not reliable, then you should not be using it)

Agreed, but even GOOD ammo can fail, and if you’re going to say “if it takes you more than 2 or 3 rounds, you shouldn’t have a gun”, then if you get the ONE out of one thousand bad cor-bon or hydrashock, then you’re already 33% to 50% in the hole. Nothing is perfect. If I got a bad cor-bon or bad hydrashock, it doesn’t mean that all the ammo is bad. It means I MIGHT have gotten the one bad one that got through. If you shoot enough, you’ll get a bad one out of about ANY ammo.

9. not sure why you're moving around all over the place to begin with

Almost EVERY practical pistol competition or instruction WILL have you shooting on the move. It’s a new world as I’ve learned. Honestly, if you can’t hit a moving target, you won’t hit me. I’m moving. If you stay still, you’re much easier to hit. Also, whether you like it or not, when someone is shooting at you, you’ll tend to move around a bit generally.

Old West type gunfights were two people politely stand still in the open and shoot at each other are pretty much a Hollywood invention. They didn’t even particularly happen back then.

10. somebody who's attacking you is going to be in a very "uncomfortable" range.

What I mean is that they need to be close enough for you to get clear head shots with in a safe time.

you bring up some very good points but keep in mind that we're talking about self defense, not being deployed to iraq or being an on duty officer.

So, you’re saying that we’re talking about a gunfight on American soil instead of a gunfight overseas, so somehow the dynamics of the gunfight and the criteria for winning are somehow different. How?

Also this argument holds just as true for people who carry revolvers, hell law enforcement did it for a number of years.

Yup! And they rode horses, beat suspects, and worked for the mob, too.

Also just as kind of an "fyi" i didn't have any vested interest because it was my old mans gun (although we are rather competitive ).

This is like saying “I had no vested interest in helping the woman find her car keys at all . . . even though I’m single, she’s the captain of the local junior college volleyball team, her implants made her chest look almost as perfect as her butt, and she was complaining because neither her nor her twin sister behind her had had sex with some random guy in their car for days, and they were dying to find some guy with a few hours to kill and a video camera”.

I've shot competitively in multiple disciplines and although NONE of them were in handguns, one thing that it did teach me was that if you're not hitting the target, you're doing something wrong. every weapon i've ever used has the potential to be an extremely accurate weapon, yes some do it better than others but as long as your using it correctly, it will work well. So the only reason why I kept shooting was because i KNEW i could do better and then proved it to myself.

I’m not sure, but I think you just made my point there.

D Durden · Feb 8, 2012

jlangholzj said:
and DAMNIT DURDEN cahnge your frickin font color!

It shows up just fine on my computer?

jlangholzj · Feb 8, 2012

D Durden said:
It shows up just fine on my computer?

yeah and it will on mine when you leave it at the default and don't change it to something like BLACK or dark blue.....lol

and you just LOVE being an antagonist don't you? lol

I'll retract my initial statement of "it only takes 2-3 rounds" since you OBVIOUSLY took it too literal.

Kraw · Feb 8, 2012

wythors said:
I really thought I wanted a USP until I had a chance to handle one for a while. The double action trigger pull is just too darned long for my taste.

I had no intention of buying one, and had never even held one... the price was too good!

stangman said:
The external extractors are frowned upon by the 1911 purist. However, they function just the same as the internal, as far as the job they do. If you need to justify it to yourself look at it this way: The Browning Hi-Power was Mr. Browning's "improved" design that came after the 1911 design & it had an external extractor. So take from that what you will.

Interesting. I have 2 BHP's. The shooter is from the early 40's and fires great. Never fired the newer one

I've got the woodies back on it now.

D Durden · Feb 9, 2012

jlangholzj said:
yeah and it will on mine when you leave it at the default and don't change it to something like BLACK or dark blue.....lol

It’s weird. What I normally do is type on a WP program so it’s spell checked, and then copy it back. No idea why it gets so weird.

and you just LOVE being an antagonist don't you? Lol

Completely busted on that one.

I'll retract my initial statement of "it only takes 2-3 rounds" since you OBVIOUSLY took it too literal.

I didn’t take it too literally. I READ what you said. J I paid attention to you. I didn’t just skim over your post and dive into something that didn’t apply. For what it’s worth, I CARE about what you say. J Lots of people get mad at me on here (not meaning you . . . I think you know me J) because I respond to something they said after I REALLY read it. I DO listen to what people say. J

I know most of my views on gunfight equipment isn’t popular, but much of what we believe about gun performance and philosophy is based on things we read or hear from other gun people. MANY times those experts are really salesmen for some product that fits the niche they’re preaching on. One of the gun dealers in a nearby town is an expert in the dangers of “over penetration” and the liabilities of unintentional shooting. He can tell you horror stories about bullets gone wrong. That being said, he has a LOVELY selection of Glaser rounds and other “safety” ammunition . . . that he’ll be happy to sell you. The other dealer in town can tell you about every Glock mishap there has ever been, and to hear him tell it, basically every Glock is a ticking time bomb, and the very invention of the Glock is a plot originated by Sara Brady and Obama. Needless to say, he’s a Sig dealer, and he stocks everything Sig (except the .38 Super they made . . . too briefly). The third gun dealer could care less what you think . . . or what they think. See, they carry everything. LOL!

I like to encourage people to ask WHY they think what they think, I guess. I try to do that myself sometimes. J

Noobz347 · Feb 9, 2012

wythors

1911s suck and everything else is better.

Let's talk 1911's.

jlangholzj

Mustang Master

D Durden

DEEP FAT FRY

jlangholzj

Mustang Master

jlangholzj

Mustang Master

D Durden

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D Durden

DEEP FAT FRY

jlangholzj

Mustang Master

Kraw

Nail On The Head El Moderatoro

D Durden

DEEP FAT FRY

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

Let's talk 1911's.

Mustang Master

DEEP FAT FRY

Mustang Master

Mustang Master

DEEP FAT FRY

DEEP FAT FRY

Mustang Master

Nail On The Head El Moderatoro

DEEP FAT FRY

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