My 65 needs a motor

[Charlie Cheap]

My 1965 Mustang six needs a motor. The OEM was bored to the max at .060" which is not recommended, but I had no choice. When hot it refuses to restart due to wall-flex. Once it cools a little it starts right up. Timing, points, plugs, wires, all related ignition parts are new and compression is great. On a trip to Tennessee and Mississippi last summer it did this refusing to start thing, so I understood when it was bored this could happen. If not shut-off it will run 75 mph getting 25 mpg, run well past the century mark, idle smooth in town, and works great...but if it dies, restarting is a problem. I need a 200 not a 250, and I build my own motors but send out for machine work to a friend. Any suggestions or places to contact would be appreciated. I am not looking for a rebuilt motor! I am 75 years old and raced for years, I am also an ASE certified mechanic who has built too many motors to count. This is not new to me, but the last 200 was made in the 80's...I think. All the new parts I put in this engine will be swapped into the new one and I know my mods work.

 

[rbohm]

finding an inline small six can be tough, since most of them got tossed out when guys did a V8 swap. all i can suggest is searching the salvage yards for one. look under the hoods of fox body cars, fairmonts, granadas, etc. one thing to be aware of, if you find a low mount starter 200, grab the transmission that is bolted to it as well.

 

[Mr.Smith]

I just jumped on this site hoping to find the same thing. I bought a project for my son and the guy said the motor and trans had been rebuilt. Finally got everything hooked up and started and it sounds like a rod is ready to come through the block at any moment. Strange this site doesn't have a buy sell forum. or if it does I don't know how to find it. I would like to know Charlie what mods do you use on these motors?

 

[rbohm]

mr smith, modding the ford small six requires some ingenuity, and some plain old common sense.

start by getting the short block solid. these motors can turn 7000rpm with just a change of valve springs, so make sure the bottom end is properly done. use ARP fasteners everywhere, and torque them properly.

cam selection depends on what you want from this motor. for a daily driver i would go with a comp cams 260he grind. it just flat works with these engines.

the head is where you are going to need to be creative. the stock one barrel is fine for a stock engine, but limits a modified one. also the early small log head is also limiting. the later large log 200/250 is a good one to start with. however it has a larger combustion chamber, so some milling is needed to bring the compression ratio back up to around 9.5:1. run the number carefully, but i think you will find that a cut of about .075" will do the trick for you.

you can also install a 1.50" exhaust valve while you are at it to improve flow out of the head. coupled with a 1.75 intake valve and you are good to go there. if you keep the log head, do a little pocket porting to improve flow into and out of the combustion chamber.

the next item is to install a 2bbl carb, or multiple carbs-two two bbl carbs, three one bbl carbs etc. depending on how much experience you have at tuning carbs, and balancing multiple carbs i suggest suing a single two bbl carb, either the weber 38/38 or the autolite/holley 350cfm two bbl carb. i plan on putting tow 32/36 carter webers on my 64 falcon six when the time comes.

a few things off the top of my head, if you do mill the head to get the compression up, be sure to check the rocker arm geometry. you may have to shim the rocker stands up a bit to get the geometry right. install a later duraspark distributor for better reliability. i like to hook them to a chrysler orange performance ignition box and an msd blaster lll coil. it worked great in my old 66 falcon. you want at least 10 degrees initial timing, though the small six can certainly stand more than that.

get the build right, and you can surprise a lot of people while still getting 25+mpg. add a T5 trans and you get two extra gears and more flexibility for driving. back that up with a 3.50-3.80 rear gear and have lots of fun in the car.

 

[RaggedGT]

Could you have the existing block sleeved?

 

[Mr.Smith]

Thanks Charlie for all that information. I don't know if you are aware of this site but it is a database of a lot of wrecking yards in the US. You may be able to find an engine in your area there.

 

[rbohm]

Could you have the existing block sleeved?

sleeving a block is not cheap. many years ago it used to be about $8 per cylinder, these days it is a lot more. and the question is, is it worth the money? if the block was a special edition numbers matching block in a perfect concours vehicle, then perhaps the answer is yes. for an inline 200 that was made in the millions, i would say no.

 

[RaggedGT]

sleeving a block is not cheap. many years ago it used to be about $8 per cylinder, these days it is a lot more. and the question is, is it worth the money? if the block was a special edition numbers matching block in a perfect concours vehicle, then perhaps the answer is yes. for an inline 200 that was made in the millions, i would say no.

While I agree with you-my question was based on him saying finding a replacement 200ci sixxer was not happening . Kind of a Plan B question/suggestion lol

 

[Charlie Cheap]

Mr. Smith, I do a basic rebuild for long highway driving and good MPG. Power is not forgotten and neither is torque, which is what really moves the car. A good cleaning of a disassembled block and head is a start. Have a good shop do a valve job for today's unleaded ethanol gas. With that done, a new near-stock or stock cam is a good idea. Increasing valve size is not necessary unless you plan to race it. These are old engines so new valve springs are a good idea also. Do not go over .040" on boring and .030" is much better. My .060" was necessary and why I am looking for a new motor to build. Keep compression in the 9 to 1 range static for the street, and about 8 to 1 dynamic. The Melling replacement cam is a good one for this. I used pistons with 13cc dish but 6.5cc is available...just watch compression. The intake valve closing is important. New freeze plugs, and all new gaskets will serve you well. I prefer a modified Ford points distributor built to my specs. With a Pertronix trigger but the points in the trunk, I feel safe anywhere. I have a MSD .8 ohm ignition resistor feeding an ACCEL 8140 coil (42,000 volts), with BWD Select points, condenser, rotor and cap. With 8.5mm wire-wound plug wires and Autolite AP46 platinum plugs gaped at .040", it runs fine. I did install a HEI but removed it before starting, after I found I needed to cut into my home-built wiring. Anybody need a new one in the box, with wires, for a deal? The exhaust is the stock manifold machined flat so it fits flush, all bends have been removed and a 24" straight-thru muffler used with 2" pipe. I made a cool-air intake to get air from in front of the radiator and it much improves combustion. YES, guys, even at lower rpm. With 89 octane, adjusted to 12 degrees initial advance, 38/40 degrees dwell/idle set at 800 rpm and the above settings, it got 24.5 mpg running the air conditioner all the way to Tennessee, Mississippi and back to west Texas. I disconnected the cool-air because it hit the hood occasionally and I did not want problems on a long trip. I am sure 25 mpg is easy with it connected.

Not bad for a 50+ year old motor.

 

[Charlie Cheap]

I just bought a 1973 Maverick 200 six with the C4 automatic for $300.00 right here in Abilene Texas. He has a bunch of Mustang doors complete with windows and inner parts and one 65 coupe body. Call 325 672-8542 and ask for Jim Scott at Abilene Auto Wrecking. I have not pulled the head to check the internals but it turns over, and at the price I paid, the later head is worth that. He is an old oval-track racer and his dad ran asphalt and NASCAR, so he is definitely a car guy.

 

[Mr.Smith]

good find Charlie. I just picked up the same thing from craigslist. Motor was supposedly rebuilt from a local shop that does real good work. I am going to call them to see if they have records of what they did to it and when.

 

[GypsyR]

I kind of hate to be the guy, but "refuses to restart due to wall-flex."? Seriously? How was that diagnosed exactly? Versus like some of the more pedestrian reasons for hot-start difficulties like a hot starter, or issues with the cables or connections which can be checked by voltage drop testing. Does it not turn over well or does it spin and not fire or what? Just curious.
I just can't see replacing an engine because it was difficult to start unless it just had very low compression which got worse at operating temperature.
Strange things can happen though. I looked at truck the other day that wouldn't turn over because it was "seized". Once I took loose the fan belt and the locked up AC compressor was out of play it cranked up and ran fine. No one including me expected that one, but everyone involved was happy that a replacement engine was only estimated and not actually purchased.

 

[Charlie Cheap]

GypsyR, my 200 inline had to be bored to .060" which is NOT recommended due to water jacket walls being too thin. The engine runs fine but in hot weather, which we have here in Texas in an abundance, those very thin walls flex...not much, but enough to cause the cylinders to close-in on the piston. I had a max-bored 283 chevy I raced in the 60's do the same thing. If you have ever seen "hot Spots" on a cylinder bore (heat discolorations) they are from walls that are too thin to support the pressures/heat. Shut the engine off, check the oil, get back in, and it turns over like a bad battery...way to slow, due to drag. My new 73 motor mics like it will handle a minimal .020" bore. Hardly any top grove and only about a thousands difference front-to-back-side-to-side. My history is as an ASE certified mechanic, city shop superintendent for police cars, ambulances, fire apparatus/trucks, building Street Rods frame up for 50 years, working for a man who built me a 4-bay shop in my backyard so I could build just for him...which I did for several years, plus I was a federally licensed gunsmith before retiring. Much of this work overlapped but I have never been afraid to ask engineers when I know...I don't know. MY Dad and older brother were both machinists and showed me a lot about how weird metal can be. I can start my 200 and let it idle to just warm and shut it off, then try to start it and it turns over very slowly. Let it cool...starts right up.

 

[Charlie Cheap]

GypsyR, I have built engines for decades and realize I am no "Super-Whammey-Double-Throwdown-Mr Magic" engine builder. I build for highway running and not racing, but I did race a SBC back in the late 60's in a 1940 Ford coupe. Bored to the max, Duntov 3030 cam, solid lifters, double-hump heads (FI), Offenhauser intake, big AFB 4-barrel, electric fuel pump, Mallory distributor and coil, Doug Thorley headers dumping under the front fenders, Schaffer clutch, Hays flywheel, big Olds 4.11 rearend, Traction Masters, Bucron sticky tires, Muncey 220 low 4-speed, running 1/3 tank of Golden ESSO gasoline. Turned mid 13's right at 100 mph. No big deal today but lots of fun in 1969. FUN, FUNNER, FUNNEST...still sounds right! OH, its been a long time so my parts name spelling may be off a little, and they may be out of business, but the older racers probably remember.

 

[Ray65-71-73]

The hot start issue described is exactly the symptom I had when the starter shaft nose support bushing wore, allowing the armature to slightly touch the field when hot.

 

[Charlie Cheap]

Ray65-71-73, there are several causes of a hard start when hot, but I am POSITIVE it is the big overbore in this case. With all new parts and only doing this after the rebuild with .060 overbore, plus having the same problem years ago with my mucho-bored-out small block chevy in a 1940 Ford coupe...I have no doubts.

 

[Dapperdan]

My 1965 Mustang six needs a motor. The OEM was bored to the max at .060" which is not recommended, but I had no choice. When hot it refuses to restart due to wall-flex. Once it cools a little it starts right up. Timing, points, plugs, wires, all related ignition parts are new and compression is great. On a trip to Tennessee and Mississippi last summer it did this refusing to start thing, so I understood when it was bored this could happen. If not shut-off it will run 75 mph getting 25 mpg, run well past the century mark, idle smooth in town, and works great...but if it dies, restarting is a problem. I need a 200 not a 250, and I build my own motors but send out for machine work to a friend. Any suggestions or places to contact would be appreciated. I am not looking for a rebuilt motor! I am 75 years old and raced for years, I am also an ASE certified mechanic who has built too many motors to count. This is not new to me, but the last 200 was made in the 80's...I think. All the new parts I put in this engine will be swapped into the new one and I know my mods work.

I have a 1966 six cylinder block, crank, rods, it came from a mustang, I think it is a 200, I do not know where you are located, I am in tulsa, call if interested, 918851 8025, and I will check if it is a 200

 

[Charlie Cheap]

I have a 1966 six cylinder block, crank, rods, it came from a mustang, I think it is a 200, I do not know where you are located, I am in tulsa, call if interested, 918851 8025, and I will check if it is a 200

Thanks Dapperdan, but I found a 1973 motor at a good price right here in Abilene Texas. If it is a 200 I am sure you will find a buyer at the Mustang 6-cylinder Association on-line. Just check M6A on facebook.

 

[Charlie Cheap]

You are reading my mind 1963_Falcon_4dr_wagon. I just moved the coil to the inner fender on driver's side. Us tinker-types are always trying to improve things, and a cooler coil can't hurt. Feeding cooler air to the carb definitely helps combustion, and keeping things cooler under the hood also helps, so I cut an eyebrow slit in the hood on the exhaust side.