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FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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Sep 5, 2001
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Fort Knox, KY
I have been " told" that there is an app you can download to your phone??
Yeah. I saw that in a YouTube vid the other day. I think it's the Tremec app. It basically turns your phone into an angle cube. Maybe it tells you where to stick it, too! lol

What I'm kind of guessing is that there may be a tool that gives me a perfect 90° angle off of the back surface of the pinion flange/yoke, and maybe adjustable to different sizes. The rear housing itself is not a great place to get a reading.

Of course, now that I think about it more, I'm dumb. I don't need a 90° angle. I just need a flat surface. Take the angle of that and subtract 90 :rlaugh:
 
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Mustang5L5

Put lubricant all over the balls
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Tremec tool box is a good app. It’s how I measured my driveline angle

12B5E205-BFE3-4072-81B2-29D94F6D470E.png
 
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FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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Time for an update.

Non-Pic Stuff: I brought the timing down from its race-ready 18* to 14*. I figure I don't need the, maybe, 10 rwhp, and at 14*, it does seem to run a little smoother at low loads and low RPMs. Further, and please challenge this if you disagree, I equate 14* on aluminum heads with 10* on irons, which means I can run regular and save a few bucks each tank. If it wasn't pinging at 18*, then at 4* retarded, dropping in octane is safe. Lastly, I still plan on nitrous, and I may even have to go down from here.

Vibration Problem persists: I've swapped the already balanced tires, hoping that the rear vibration would transfer to the front, but no luck. I'd read on here about how the pinion flange bolt can loosen over time and how the crush sleeve requires > 100 ft-lbs to crush. The takeaway was that ensuring that it's not loose gets rid of one vibration possibility. I put the torque wrench at 60 ft-lbs on it and it turned before clicking. So, I went up a bit more to 70 ft-lbs and called it good. However, this did not remove the vibration. While I was in there, I turned the D/S 180*, not really sure what I was hoping for there -- some people have claimed some success with doing so -- but obviously this did not work for me. I guess replacing the yoke, balancing the driveshaft, and/or checking and adjusting the pinion angle are upcoming.

Gas Vapor Problem Persists:
The charcoal canister, purge solenoid, and wiring pigtail is in. On the first night driving it, for about 30 minutes, I didn't catch a single whiff of the smell of gasoline and figured it was a success. However, on day 2, it smelled of gas again... damn... I can't find the smell outside of the car. It doesn't happen when I run it on normal A/C, but it does when it's on Max. Could positive cabin pressure while on normal a/c be keeping it from allowing exterior gas vapors in?
1661723595327.png


I ran the line a non-stock way, and connected the existing hard plastic-feeling line to a 5/32" (?) line with an adapter, which I then realized I had to size up to whatever-hell-spare hose I had that actually fit the nipped on the charcoal canister. Then I put shrink wrap over both connections to try to ensure an airtight seal. This is not a vacuum line. So, I don't know how successful this will be in the long run, and when I drop the tank, eventually, I'll consider rerunning the whole line. I also probably wouldn't recommend this routing as I noticed tire rub marks and I'm concerned about the line, even though initial test-drive demonstrated no issues. No pics, but the surface rust here has been treated in the same manner as the rest of the stuff I've found on the car.
1661723856642.png


In this pic, you can see I mounted the purge solenoid in a non-stock location and then ran its vacuum line to a T in front of the upper intake where diagrams showed the stock location. Is there a way to test the solenoid?
1661724236490.png


Next up, I found I was missing the front bumper support and ordered one, only to find that the impact absorbers were gone. Looks like they run $150-200 used. So, I decided to put it back together and bide my time until I come across them more affordably. Meanwhile, I did some more resurfacing and corrosion protection:
1661724439974.png

1661724460391.png


When I took the car for a drive, last night, I was disappointed to see low voltage. This morning, I found that the connector to the voltage regulator was loose & falling apart. I considered this the perfect reason to make a little upgrade, which I happened to have almost everything I needed and that's what I'm working on, today:
1661724584630.png


1661724610954.png


I figure that I'll go ahead and install that 185* thermostat, while I'm at it. I really think I figured out the cooling issue *fingers crossed*, and I'd like to have some heat so I can keep driving it, this winter.
 
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FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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Well, I dropped the tank today and may have found 2 problems I've struggled with.

Gas Vapor smell resolved, I think...
1662255483816.png


I dropped the tank and found the vent tube pointed straight forwards. The floor pan is designed to give room to the fuel tank, but obviously the clearance to the front was not sufficient for this orientation. It should be pointed to the passenger side, IMO. I replaced the line, oriented it correctly, and ensured it was not being pinched when I reinstalled the tank. I really think this has cleared up my fuel smell issue.

I used an air hose to blow off corrosion and debris from the exterior of the tank. The interior of the tank looked very clean. So, no need to replace it. The underside of the car needed a little help, just like everything else. I hit it with a wire wheel and some paint. Now, I feel like I've pretty much hit every part of the floor pan from front to rear. The car's back in good shape, regarding cleaning and rust prevention.

Could this be my vibration problem?:
I finally got it onto a car lift where it's on all 4 tires, and measured the drivetrain angles. I used straight edges to help me get the angle cubes where I needed them. I sketched out the angles, and I suspect this is far enough out of tolerance to cause the vibrations I've been feeling.
1662256026857.png


In case it's hard to make out my chicken scratch, I'll try to interpret in text format. I took many measurements at each point, because it really isn't easy to be consistent when holding a straight-edge in one hand, an angle cube in the other hand, and try to get it angled correctly in 3 axes. So, it wasn't all that consistent, and the diff's flange was so hard I ended up pulling the rear of the driveshaft off to get more exposure to the flange's surface. Anyways, the rear of the trans casing where the yoke slides in measured 2.7-3* downwards in the direction of the rear of the car. The driveshaft measured 1.7-2* downwards towards the rear of the car. The rear flange measured about 1.3-1.6* downwards towards the FRONT of the car. Thus, the pinion angle was a 'V' with a 3-3.6* angle.

This tells me that the solution to my problem is either to get upper control arms that will extend longer than the non-adjustable s that are currently on the car, lowers that I can shorten, or some combination of both.

I'm thinking that the engine and driveshaft angles are ok, as is. They're only at around 1* difference, relative to each other. Of course, the driveshaft may come up a bit when I adjust the rear diff. But even another 1* would still leave the front yoke to D/S within tolerance.

Now, a couple questions for anyone with insight...

Which adjustable control arms will get me where I need to be?
The upper control arms on the car are labeled "Gripp". Google says these are BBK poly-bushing control arms. Can I assume they're stock length? If so, would adjustable uppers alone extend enough to angle the rear the way I need it to? Which poly-bushing uppers do you guys recommend?

What angle?
I'll go back and look, but I'm tracking the following: ~2* for rubber bushings, ~1* for poly bushings, ~.25-.5* for heim-joints/solids. So, with poly's in mind, I should aim to bring the rear diff to an upwards angle towards the front of the car approximately parallel with the engine and trans, so 2.7-3*, maybe a bit less if it throws off the D/S angle. Then, I'll remeasure and then go from there. If that doesn't throw off the D/S angle significantly, then it'll be about 1* off from the D/S, and at approximately the same angle as the tranny/front yoke. I guess I can use spacers under the trans mount, as needed to lessen the angle of the engine/trans. Maybe it'll end up in the 2* engine/trans, 1* D/S, and 2* rear diff range (all down towards rear).

@Bullitt347
 
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FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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Team-Z, maybe? But are they long enough?

1662258261996.png


But then I find what looks like the kind of Team-Z products I'm used to. I think the stuff above is some kind of third party manufacturer after Team-Z went bigtime and the one I've found on the marketplace below as the in-shop work they used to do:

1662265257041.png


Those older ones look more adjustable and more stout. I'm going to try for them before ordering the newer skimpier-looking ones.
 
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FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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Wow, I'd call myself a physics guy, but I can't say I understood the impact of all of this. I still don't understand the phasing issue, what in the world is that? Is that were the front u-joint isn't at the same angle as the rear u-joint? (edit: yes... When U-joints are in phase, they will be aligned with each other). Regardless, the idea that I want the rear diff flange and the front yoke to be at the same angle is something I never really knew. live and learn...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmV4qwLfOMY


1662262430669.png


Source: https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017...iveline-vibrations-by-adjusting-pinion-angle/

That is an awesome article I've now downloaded and saved for future reference. It also specifically addresses my situation, and it sets out for me what I need to do:

Let’s say the engine/trans is angled downward at three degrees and the pinion is angled upward two degrees. If we were to extend the operating angles of the engine/trans and the pinion, you can see that these lines will be within one degree of parallel. This arrangement is very close to an ideal overall driveline operating angle because the two angles are within one degree of parallel.

Now, let’s change the pinion so that its operating angle is two degrees downward. The extended line from the pinion angle will now intersect the engine/trans angle, creating an intersecting overall operating angle that generates the vibration you’re experiencing.

So the solution is to change the overall operating angle.

There are two ways to do this: One is simple. The other is far more difficult.

The difficult way: If we decide to leave the pinion operating angle at two degrees nose-down, the engine/trans angle would need to be raised to a minimum of a one-degree tail-up attitude. And this will probably be difficult since that TKO trans is already somewhat tight to the floor pan. We’ll assume you currently have the typical tail-down angle. Placing a ½- or ¾-inch shim between the trans mount and the crossmember will help, but probably not enough. In our experience, it may take 1½ to two inches of spacers to move the trans angle more than a degree.

The simple way: The second option is to change the pinion angle. Frankly, this is far easier.

With adjustable upper control arms, this gives you the ability to lengthen the upper arm which will raise the pinion angle from a nose-down to a more appropriate nose-up angle. Again using our original three-degree engine/trans tail-down angle, adjusting the pinion to a two-degree nose-up angle will put the overall driveshaft operating angle within one degree of being parallel.

I'm putting the Team-Zs on order. I'm more confident than ever that this is my issue.
 
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FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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I would check the length of the upper control arms compared to stock stuff.
I have a pair of uppers (new) on a shelf I could measure.
According to a post I found from Pat Casey, at UPR sales many years ago, the stock upper is supposedly 9 3/8 inches. I assume that fixed arms are stock replacement, and therefore the same length, but I cannot find the actual dimensions on BBK's website (manufacturer of Gripp, it seems).
 

FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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Fort Knox, KY
Wire tuck in progress... pics soon
Replaced stupid-looking chrome-but-corroded antenna plate.
Windshield washer reservoir, pump, nozzle, and new hood cable on order (its sleeve was damaged and didn't make the transfer through the fender well).
 
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FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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Vibration troubles continue:

Summary:
Man, oh man! I really thought I had it this time, and I was pretty excited to do this, because it represented new territory to me. The last post about pinion angles really convinced me that the pinion angle was my issue. Now, I have resolved the pinion angle issue to the best of my ability, and if I did as well as I think I did, it's good to go, but it unfortunately made very little to no difference in the vibration. The 75+ mph vibration is still there.

The theory/facts/assumptions:
The wave-tops from the last posts:
- Engine/trans angle (Reading 1 in the diagram in post #130 above) should be approximately parallel with the rear diff/pinion (Reading 3).
- The angle at each u-joint should be ~1* when you have polyurethane bushings
- Originally Engine trans measured nose-up 2.7-3*
- my driveshaft measured nose-up 1.7-2*
- my pinion measured nose-down 1.3-1.6*
- Thus pinion angle was ~3-3.6* (very bad)
- Engine/trans were out of parallel from the pinion by ~4-4.6* (very, very bad, apparently). I was sure after the previously posted video that this was my culprit

New upper control arms:
First, let me just say that while I was disappointed with the advertised pics of the Team-Z control arms in comparison with other parts of theirs on my other black car, the actual parts look much better than the advertising pics... They're really doing themselves a disservice with those ad pics, IMO. Here's what they look like in comparison to the BBK 'gripp' UCAs that came off of the car:
1662920226142.png


The pic may make those threads seem a bit small, but after using them and adjusting things with them, I have no concerns whatsoever. They are very stout.

Now, UPRs Pat Casey claimed that the stock upper control arms are supposedly 9 3/8". I wouldn't know but the BBK Gripp UCAs were only 9 1/4", as best I could measure. I set the Team-Z UCA that way to assist getting them into the car. However, I still came up a bit too long:
1662920468696.png


Now, maybe the rear moved a bit to cause this on the install, but regardless, the Gripps were just not long enough and could not compensate for how much the car is lowered in the rear. Side note: lowering the rear pushes the differential nose-down, because the UCAs are shorter than the LCAs. The Team-Zs did have enough extension range to get me back to where I needed to be in the end. I was concerned before-hand that I would hit the end of the extension range and then would need to purchase adjustable LCAs, too. That was unfounded.

Here's a before/after of the gripps vs. the Team-Zs. It's a shame these will never been seen by anyone other than maybe a mechanic on a lift:
1662922262159.png

1662922287840.png


Pinion Angle adjustment:
So, after getting the new UCAs in, I re-baselined my angle measurements. Put spacers/washers under the trans bushing and achieved ~2.5* nose-up (note: don't compare this to my previous numbers as I had set a new zero on my angle cubes. I was more consistent with my measurements this time and only relative angle of the drive line components matters). Then, I set the pinion-angle to ~2.5* nose-up, and held my breath as I measured the D/S angle. My plan was to keep adjusting the engine and diff until they were parallel and the D/S was approximately 1* offset at each end. Would you believe it?! The D/S measured 1.5-1.55* nose-up on the first try! Talk about fortunate; I was thrilled! Getting the right washers to achieve the engine/trans angle was, I thought, going to be challenging and tedious. It turns out that it was pretty straightforward.

Edit: I wanted to capture this data for future consideration. According to QA1's Website (linked):
Many drag racers adjust their pinion angle to optimize operating angles for maximum power delivery when the car is under power. The less operating angle in the u-joint, the more power will make it to the rear tires. By compensating for pinion rise in their static pinion angle, racers can minimize pinion angle during hard acceleration. Ladder-Bar and 4-link style suspensions offer a lot more control of the axle, and therefore the pinion. But drag racers will still set up the pinion angle to compensate for the rise. According to Pro Stock chassis builder, Jerry Bickel, ladderbars require ½° of pinion angle. A 4 link requires 1-2½°. Vehicles with leaf springs can require 6-7°.

So, optimally, it looks like I'd prever that both the engine-trans & Pinion be rotated to face nose-down about 1-2.5*, and to pick whichever angle creates at least 1/2 a degree of angle (according to another part of the link) between them and the D/S when it's not under load. This would give me close an optimal straight-line drivetrain under acceleration, while also giving me a vibration-free cruise. I may do this in the future, but at the moment, the current nose-up angles should still be right for clearing up my high-speed cruise vibrations.

Outcome:
I got the car out on the test drive and was immediately disappointed when I got it to 80 mph. [Edit after more drives] The vibration is still there but it is slightly better. I'm disappointed that $230 on parts and the time put into the research & work failed to resolve the overarching vibration issue. OTOH, at least I am getting things the way I know they should be, am methodically working through and eliminating all possible causes or combinations of contributing causes, and am still bound and damned determined to see it through.

Future work:
- D/S rotation: I'm going to rotate the D/S 1/4 turn at a time for :poo:s 'n giggles to see if there's any difference, because more and more I see this issue being the claimed solution for folks, but if this cures it, I'm going back to the physics drawing board until I understand why or how this would solve a balance/vibration issue.
- D/S balance: A place nearby balances the d/s on its own, which bothers me. I really want a place that can balance the D/S with the front yoke after @HotFox mentioned that his yoke turned out to be the issue. Nevertheless, the alternative is just to order another yoke from a trusted manufacturer.
- If those fail, I'm out of ideas that exclude tearing into the rear and replacing/resetting everything that makes sense to: flange/yoke, bearings, and redo pinion specs. And if that fails, I'm burning the car to the ground and starting over with a new, third fox!
 
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FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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Tint:

My tint guy went a little lower on the front windshield than I thought it would, and it's either perfect, or maybe just barely bothersome in my line-of-sight. I can't really tell, yet. Either way, I think it makes the car look a lot better:

1662925009922.png


1662925023630.png


1662925162666.png
 
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HotFox

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I hope you find it. My vibration transfered into the engine, it cracked windage tray and cracked oil pickup tube all before I found this problem. Last time the engine was apart we welded everything back together. This time everything will be replaced as it is broke again.
 
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Cheapskate207

The left one hangs a little lower
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You have loads more tail pipe clearance! I could use that.. stock uppers + 3” tails = rattles.

I’m in a similar boat. My vibe is 90 mph+. Thinking it’s the DS. I checked my angles too and adjusted them to be “correct” to no avail. I’m following this I see what the solution is.
 
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FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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So, I had a chance to do more than a quick blip to 80, today. The vibration is definitely better than it was. Even though it's still not acceptable, it's nice to feel like I'm making progress.
 
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