Synthetic Oil Question

claytucc3 said:

What weight of oil do you guys use. Has anyone found a 5/20w synthetic oil?

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mobil 1 synthetic 0w20 same thing as the 5w20 just that mobil didn't pay Ford to use there trade weight.

claytucc3 said:

What weight of oil do you guys use. Has anyone found a 5/20w synthetic oil?

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mobil 1 synthetic 0w20 same thing as the 5w20 just that mobil didn't pay Ford to use there trade weight.

Snkypete,

You are right that most people don't NEED to change their oil (assuming they are using a good oil like Amsoil or Mobil1 synthetic) near as often as they do. A lot of them just WANT to because it makes them feel better.

You are right when you state that people seem inclined to mouth off on subjects they have little knowledge of. But what else is new? It's also possible that some people like to bait and tongue-in-check people who are anal retentive. Think some of that might be going on?

Just noticed your cool car in your signature. I think I would want an oil analysis too if I was driving a mean machine like that. How many miles have you put on the configuration that is in your signature? Do you have any track times? Do you really NEED a car like this? Or did you just WANT it because it makes you feel good? Get my point? It's possible that you are relating the care and concern you are putting on your show car with what the average pretty much stock Mustang daily driver puts on his. Two different worlds. It's a lot easier to just change oil fairly often when you're racking up a lot of miles and not get caught up in the details. Most people don't get too excited about changing their oil.

Snykpete, I have enjoyed debating with you some of the issues surrounding how often people change their oil. It is an interesting study in human nature. Don't know about you, but hardly a day goes by that I don't thank my lucky stars that I was born in this great country and have the right and ability to do things like this!!

Have a great day!

Grey01 said:

Snkypete,

You are right that most people don't NEED to change their oil (assuming they are using a good oil like Amsoil or Mobil1 synthetic) near as often as they do. A lot of them just WANT to because it makes them feel better.

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And that is fine - again no one was telling anyone they couldn't do anything - merely correcting inaccurate information. Why would anyone want to throw away money for no reason? I will again bring up brakes - why not change your brake pads for no reason then?

Grey01 said:

You are right when you state that people seem inclined to mouth off on subjects they have little knowledge of. But what else is new?

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Doesn't make it right, and is what brings down the quality of a board IMO.

Grey01 said:

It's also possible that some people like to bait and tongue-in-check people who are anal retentive. Think some of that might be going on?

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Perhaps you might be, however there are clearly those who had posted in this thread who don't have a clue, but demand that oil has to be changed at 3000 miles - brednova is a perfect example of this.

Grey01 said:

Just noticed your cool car in your signature. I think I would want an oil analysis too if I was driving a mean machine like that. How many miles have you put on the configuration that is in your signature? Do you have any track times? Do you really NEED a car like this? Or did you just WANT it because it makes you feel good? Get my point? It's possible that you are relating the care and concern you are putting on your show car with what the average pretty much stock Mustang daily driver puts on his. Two different worlds. It's a lot easier to just change oil fairly often when you're racking up a lot of miles and not get caught up in the details. Most people don't get too excited about changing their oil.

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Mileage : A bit over 10,000. I am fortunate enough to not have to use the car as a daily driver - my previous mustang was an only driver for its first two years, a daily driver there after during nice weather. It had roughly 100k on the odometer IIRC.

I will ASSume you mean drag race : No this car hasn't been to the track. There is nothing exciting for me about a mid 400rwhp car - been there years ago. So why risk tossing a rod on a motor that has inherently weak internals when a new motor is being assembled and this one can then be sold to offset the cost? To go low 12's? No thanks. I've been racing for almost 18 years, have gone low 12's naturally aspirated in a road race car, and 10's with a 200hp shot of nitrous.

Do I need a car like this? Yes, because again, I don't do things half assed. Why the car has received the attention it has, and the compliments I get. Keeping the car stock was never an option - there was a detailed plan in place on its transformation before the car was even purchased....which - while being a year behind schedule unfortunately - is only approximately $6000 over budget. Being that small of a percentage off is due to experience, investigating and knowledge....this isn't my first car, or my first project car for that matter.

Show vs Daily Driver : Well, a show car is just one aspect of my car, but since you bring up the point - this regiment is even more important in a daily driver - and more cost effective. The stress placed on a daily driver is much more than a show only car. However it is not greater than that of a car that also doubles as a drag race and road race car.

Fine, we can compare my truck if you want to do daily drivers - I do over 35,000 miles a year on the truck. March '04 it will be 4 years old - it has over 115k miles on it. It also holds more than 5 qts of oil....16 to be exact. According to the 'synthetic is garbage after 3,000 miles' club, I'd use $90 a month in oil alone. Instead I installed an Amsoil ByPass filter, the primary filter is changed every 7500, both filters at 15k, primary at 22.5k, both at 30k. I send out an analysis at 10k and 20k - and then replace it at 30k. Now, back to Amsoil being $6-7/qt (we'll use $6 again) I am now using $96 in 11 months for oil, and $40 in sampling (4136 total) as opposed to Mobil 1 ($5/qt) being changed at 3k for an almost yearly total of $900. So now we're not talking $10, we're talking almost $1000 in the course of a year - $1k I can then put into working on my car....or towards a vacation, or whatever. My oil comes up clean every time, my mileage is the same as they day I purchased it, and this has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. How many mustangs on this board have 115k on them?

I don't get excited about having to change the oil either unfortunately. I do enjoy working on my car, cleaning it, driving it, racing it and showing it...you know things an enthusiast does? Something that this board is supposed to be made up of. I seriously doubt that there are 'average' mustang owners here - there are enthusiasts....what percentage of board members have stock cars? I'll even go out on a limb and guess - something I don't do - and say the percentage is in single digits. While it is a shame that a growing percentage don't work on their cars themselves (I suppose it keeps the shops in business) they are still enthusiasts looking for better performance - not average drivers.

Grey01 said:

Snykpete, I have enjoyed debating with you some of the issues surrounding how often people change their oil. It is an interesting study in human nature. Don't know about you, but hardly a day goes by that I don't thank my lucky stars that I was born in this great country and have the right and ability to do things like this!!

Have a great day!

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I don't mind a healthy debate, I actually enjoy it. Unfortunately in this thread, the people debating that synthetic oil is garbage after 3000 forgot to bring any facts to the table so there wasn't really any enjoyment - or was it that they didn't have any to bring - only opinions that were based upon nothing?

I went to get an oil change today and asked for mobil 1 synthetic so they said that would be 27.50 + 5.50 for each quart of synthetic so I kinda was like your kidding me right? Guess I can supply my own oil next time. I just got Castrol GTX; thats what ive been getting.

Snkypete,

Question for RS-turbo/snkypete - what's been your experience with regard to engines that have run up high miles on dino oil, and then been switched to synthetics, developing leaks after the switch? Participating in a number of forums that cover several different makes of vehicle, that seems to be a fairly common problem. Doesn't always happen, but it happens often enough that many folks have had the issue surface. Just curious if you've experienced that symptom or not, and if so what you think the reasons for it are.

This thread (just took me about 30 minutes to read through it) has some great info in it, and some other 'stuff' too. In many cases I think necessity has been confused with desire. People change their oil when they do for all sorts of reasons - some objective, some subjective. And the interesting thing about the subjective reasons is they don't have to make sense to someone else; just to the person that thinks that way.

At one point Snkypete said "....part of owning a vehicle for ME is the enjoyment of working on it." I suspect that is true for most of us who participate in this forum. One way that a lot of folks realize that enjoyment is changing their oil and filter. Whether or not an oil analysis supports the need for the change usually doesn't enter into the picture. For some, they will read this thread, conclude that there may be another way to maintain their vehicle's lubricant systems, and go with synthetics and a longer change interval. Some will let analysis guide them. Some will simply go with a bit of a longer change interval. Others will continue with their shorter intervals - with regular or with synthetic. And I don't think there's a wrong or bad decision in there - because we all make the decisions for different reasons.

My professional background is connected with natural gas pipelines. We used a lot of fixed, HUGE natural gas fired reciprocating engines to drive compressors. Huge amounts of oil are needed to lubricate these since compressor stations typically had 10 to 20 engines, and were situated about every 75 miles from TX to NY. Synthetic lubricants were used, and oil was only changed when analysis called for it. Oil analysis was also used to refine maintenance procedures as we shifted from preventative maintenance to predictive maintenance. All of this was driven by cost reduction desires. I understand the nature and performance properties of the different lubricants quite well. Given all that - I still change my car's oil on a shorter interval. Why? Because I can afford it, and I like to do it. I enjoy keeping clean oil in the car - it's that simple. I understand the oil I'm taking out can go longer, but that knowledge doesn't override my simple desire to change the oil more often. Go figure.

Snkypete - if you're serious about "helping" others, I'd offer this. RS-turbo did a great job in his post of presenting many of the same 'facts' that you did; perhaps with more detail, and bit more clarity (my take anyway), but he largely told the same story. However, he did so without once coming across in a way that had other posters accusing him of 1) arrogance, 2) of having a know it all attitude, 3) flaming them. The tone and tenor with which your 'facts' are presented has much more to do with whether people will actually listen to and hear what you're trying to convey than the credibility of the facts you present. Said another way - when people feel disrespected, they can't hear your facts. To be fair, I should also add that the majority of the Amsoil dealers I've come across (and I've talked with 8 or 10 over the years) tend to come off sounding more like Snkypete, and less like RS-turbo. I can only conclude that Amsoil the company has a bit of 'holier than thou' as a part of it's culture. I don't think it's coincidence that what many describe as arrogance shows up in many (not all) of Amsoil's dealers -- I believe the company is predisposed to that trait.

Having said all that, I just put Amsoil in my car (sig below). First time running full synthetic for me in this car. Reason for the change? I bought too much Amsoil tranny and rear end fluid for my wife's car and my buddy (who is an Amsoil dealer) took a leftover qt. of each in partial exchange for the oil. The car's going back on the dyno this week and I thought it might be interesting to see if there are pressure/oil temp./HP differences with the Amsoil in it. And guess what? Come 3 to 4 thousand miles (late spring for me) I'll drain the perfectly good Amsoil and switch back to my regular oil/summer weight. Why? Because I like to change the oil and filter on the car regularly. You see - it's subjective.

Michael,

It's actually a common misconception that high mileage will cause leaks if converted to syntethics. The leaks are caused by the synthetics actually cleaning away the sludge from the inside of the motor that has built up over time. This sludge actually prevents the dino oil from leaking. When no longer present, the synthetic is free to take the path of least resistance.

I appreciate your constructive criticism - however if you did indeed go back to the beginning, you will see I was not arrogant or condescending in the beginning - absolutely in my latter comments but it was intended and directed at those who are obviously incompetent and speaking above their knowledge - I did not flame them until in was warranted. They intended to discredit my facts with their opinion - those two individuals just do not have the ability to differentiate the two. As for most Amsoil dealers, I cannot speak for that...I am not a typical 'dealer'. I became one due to the amount of oil I consume on a yearly basis for my toys (pwc was the primary cost benefit). I have had no formal Amsoil training so I cannot comment on how others are.

The thing is, I have been doing this since longer than some of these kids have been alive. I have built three high performance Mustangs and have learned from my mistakes - I help people all the time because people helped me when I was looking to learn. However I didn't tell these people they were wrong because I had a different opinion - I listened to their facts and asked questions (as you did above with the leakage question). I continually run across people as I did in this thread and that is just because they assume everyone is ignorant because they are - they don't do their own modifications and not because of where they live or lack of tools - but due to lack of knowledge. So when I present a fact and then they're entitled to their opinion - well of course they are - but that doesn't mean their opinion is correct....my opinion on things is not necessarily the same as the facts in all cases.

If people want to misread that as being arrogant, that's fine. There is right and wrong and things are black and white.

As for changing the oil being subjective - I never said it was not. Once again because although you claimed to read the entire thread it is evident you did not - you can throw away perfectly good oil if you choose to. But the FACT still remains that there will be no logical reason to change it other than to give you something to do.....a thing that was argued against - that people don't want to spend time changing their oil. Will you be changing your brake pads as well after 3000 miles? I will pose the same question to you - why not? Why replace one item that is perfectly good but not another? Will you be changing your belts? Hoses?

The reason you will be changing your oil is not subjective (if it was truly that, you would change the other wearable items as well), but due to lack of knowledge and the mindset that was embedded from the oil companies that it must be changed.

snky - your explanation on leaks when switching under the conditions I described is consistent with my understanding too. I've explained it the same way to others. Agreed - the problem isn't a problem with the oil; it's the switch that causes the problem. But, to the person with the leak, that's a distinction without a difference. They still have a leak which they didn't have before they switched.

As to the rest, I don't think who flamed first has any bearing on it. Responding in kind only exacerbates the situation -- it's a choice that can be avoided if desired.

Actually, I did read the whole thread - including all the pieces about 'you don't change this, why change that?' We'll just have to respectfully see it differently. People change things for all kinds of reasons - and their reasons/logic for doing so doesn't always match up with mine. That doesn't mean it's wrong or flawed - it's simply different from mine. My brother owns a wheel/tire/repair shop. Seems like every other time I'm visiting (at least twice a year) he has different wheels/tires on his cars. Are his wheels worn out or damaged? No. Are his tires worn out/damaged - do they NEED to be replaced? No by the criteria I use to replace mine. He simply has access to the new stuff, it costs him very little to do it, and he likes to change them. So he does. Would I do that to mine? Perhaps if I were in his business. But I'm not and I don't. So you see, depending on individual circumstances and more importantly individual desires certain items can be replaced when they're 'not bad' when others aren't. Your logic on not replacing belts and hoses vs. oil changes works for you - but that doesn't mean it's sound for everyone else. You see that's the definition of subjective - I can choose to apply one set of logic to one thing, but not to another. That's what makes it subjective. There's no lack of knowledge as you described - read the post - I know full well that I could go with longer intervals. With analysis, even longer intervals. I CHOOSE not to do so fully informed - that's what subjective is. I simply want to change the oil. I know that doesn't work for your logic - that's the point.

Exactly - one of the myths about synthetics that really needs to go away. Why I don't recommend people with high mileage converting - especially on a daily driver that is not more of a hobby vehicle.

I understand why you choose to change the oil....but again, the entire point was not to tell people they can't change their oil - but rather they don't NEED to. Which was rebutted by synthetic oil MUST be changed at 3-5k or you're going to ruin your motor.

If people want to do it, that's fine - that was never argued. But they need to be informed that they don't need to. For people with high capacity oil pans, or like my diesel, it ads up to significant savings without any negative impact. My point was to correct the misinformation that it HAS to be changed or you will damage your motor - the fear of the uninformed can be quite powerful......especially when it has been beaten into our heads to change the oil at 3k since the day of oil cans and hammering in spouts

I don't think you can properly compare a race car to an average enthusiasts vehicle....race cars are expendable, their resources are generally greater and consumables are factored in. New rims come out all the time and I would tend to believe the reason for the swap is due to a new design which saves weight or some other performance aspect....so in that regard there would be something "wrong" with the older set....just something to think about.

My point about the hoses, etc was merely to ask why you choose to apply logic to one area and not the other. I guess it just does not make sense to me.

As for the flaming - you are absolutely correct, I could have avoided replying...I never said I couldn't. I chose to respond in kind. I am quite friendly until provoked and go out of my way to assist anyone who asks because as previously stated it was done for me when I wanted to learn. I help countless people every day in email, PM's, through my website and on boards. However as also stated, there are only so many times you can state that a 315/35/17 drag radial should not go on a 9" rim if you want to be safe/responsible only to be retorted with 'well I saw some dude who had them and they only bulged a little bit' .....ugh.... Trust me, the reason I document all of my installations with pictures, feedback on companies, scanning the instructions as pdf's is only partially for my self enjoyment....it is also for the satisfaction of knowing others are able to benefit from it as well.

All I can say is WOW. I have never been soo glued to a thread before.

SNKYPETE and rs-turbo

Thank you for all the knowledge, very well written.
I think more forums should have members such as you two.

I think the way you handled yourself is perfectly fine, if others can't deal then TS :Zip2: .
It's like the way the honda kids get when you tell them their CAI and cat-back gain little to no performance for the $700 they just spent.

I work at a privately owned repair shop and I hear so many misinformed thoughts on a daily basis, it is overly refreshing to see pure facts being debated.

And I have begrudgingly mounted many 245/4517 on 17x7's for V6 STANGS.

Because someone chooses to do something un-neccesary doesn't make it right.

I am going to research AMSOIL a little bit more and see if we can get on board at the shop I work at.

BTW anyone who wants to change your MOBILE 1 every 3,000 miles, I open you with open arms to my shop, you have need to unload your cash, and I have a need for cash...hmm go figure.

Wow, older post, but still pretty valid. A lot of new products and changes at Amsoil since, as I'm sure with other companies. The XL-7500 is now just XL and can go longer than the 7500 mile/6 month interval if the manufacturer recommends longer drains. Earlier this year Amsoil released a 0W-20 with the standard 25,000 mile/one year drain they usually promote and also have a line of Ea Filters now capable of going that full interval as well. They just released their Signature Series 0W-30 oil to replace the Series 2000 0W-30, with even better specs (TBN is 13.2, something usually unheard of). Amsoil told us they believe that this is the best oil they manufacture now, which completely blew Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5W-30 out of the water in wear protection. The Ea Air Filters that came out after these posts are also rapidly becoming more and more popular; dry media, reusable, filters better than wet gauze and flows as well.

People and shops are getting confused now with the fact that extended drains are getting more popular, and according to survey reports, the general public wants this. Most oil manufacturers and many shops are still promoting the old 3000 mile drain, but the industry is changing with many auto manufacturers now offering longer drains. GM even says to use their oil monitor system to judge when it's time for an oil change. So what should people believe, the old way of thought, the word of the quick lube guy who has been trained by the oil companies to tell everyone to change at 3000 miles, or their owners manual that now says they can go 7500, 10,000, or even longer between changes?

Anyway, I made a newsletter for the first time in about a year and hope to be doing them on a more regular basis again that I send out to those interested and my accounts. It recaps many of the new products since then and some racing and sponsoring info Amsoil has been doing. My next one will probably cover some of the newer products out now and what's coming up more. If you'd like to read it, send me a message and I'll forward the link on my site where it's at. Don't want to get in trouble here by posting links to my business site. Also there is a Gear Lube White Paper now out comparing Amsoil and 13 other brands and of the standard ASTM tests performed, only 2 (including Amsoil) passed them all. These included brands such as Red Line, Royal Purple, Lucas, Mobil 1, Castrol, etc. No Motorcraft fluids were tested since most newer Fords use a 75W-140, and they were testing 75W-90 weight GLs, but it will give a good idea on what can be expected. If you want a link to a copy of this report, let me know.

Mike

I agree, this is a very interesting thread.
I'm still a firm believer in using a quality oil of the correct weight for the car and a top tier filter along with 3-5k OCI.
I haven't had a car not make 200k miles using that combo over the last 30 years or so. All dino oil and mostly Castrol GTX in the later years.

For the record my 03 Mustang uses either Mobil 1 or Penzoil Platinum and a Motorcraft filter. I normally use 5W-20, tried 5W-30 but I think I'm going back to 5W-20. No real reason other than that is the oil spec'd for the car.

One thing that comes to mind is that manufacturers are interested in the car holding together for the warranty period and little else.
They want to be able to advertise low cost normal maintenance during that period, so of course it's in their best interest to *extend* OCI and other routine preventative maintenance because it makes better advertising copy.

We, as enthusiasts, are interested in long life and ultimate performance under in many cases severe performance so we must adjust our schedule accordingly.

Just my 2 cents!

I agree, under extreme conditions like high performance, Amsoil also changes their drain policy and recommends oil analysis to make sure the oil is still protecting properly.

True on the manufacturers wanting to please the customer, one reason the drains are being increased. But they also wouldn't want to do anything that would cause them any warranty repair issues. No point pleasing the buyer when it will cost them money on engine repairs.

You'll probably notice a little more MPG when when going to back to the 5W-20. Of course, if you're running her hard, maybe you won't.

Mike