I think he's recommending that I open the air box to include an additional air source should I have decided to keep it N/A.
I'm past the point of no return now anyways...the exhaust has been cut up, and now I need the turbo to finish it.
Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.
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I'm past the point of no return now anyways...the exhaust has been cut up, and now I need the turbo to finish it.
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No dyno for me.
The shop that told me that they could consider doing it this Monday, last Monday decided that Monday's are too busy to mess with something as time consuming as an hour on the dyno.
So,.... How much power was being lost as a result of a possible restricted induction system is something I'll never know...
As stated in my reply to my buddy hotfox above,...I've opened the can of worms..I've cut up the exhaust so as to change it around to support the turbo...
The shop that told me that they could consider doing it this Monday, last Monday decided that Monday's are too busy to mess with something as time consuming as an hour on the dyno.
So,.... How much power was being lost as a result of a possible restricted induction system is something I'll never know...
As stated in my reply to my buddy hotfox above,...I've opened the can of worms..I've cut up the exhaust so as to change it around to support the turbo...
I think he's recommending that I open the air box to include an additional air source should I have decided to keep it N/A.
I'm past the point of no return now anyways...the exhaust has been cut up, and now I need the turbo to finish it.
I got the water meth kit 90% installed( I just bolted it back in the same holes it came out of)
I dare not go any further for the sake of having to do it twice,( or 3,4,5 times over for that matter)
I have some stuff to still buy anyways..so..waiting.
They were off of a 4.4l v8.
#1. They reuse the turbos on warranty engines.
#2. The waste gates are actuated off of vacuum instead of boost, I'd have to adapt them...im done adapting bmw stuff to fit this engine.
Yep, true dat. Edit add infinatum. (Mainly becuase I get It Wrong first up, often)
That's how I scroll....
Point is, Turbos run restrictor plates too. So do naturally aspirated engines. The NA BMW 7 liter V12's at Le Mans run one quite big diameter plate, and World Rally Championship 2 liter Turbos run a 35 mm restrictor plate. So do F1 engines, about 53 mm. So do NASCAR Carb and EFI engines. So does nearly every turbo production engine, including the Barra Turbo in 240/270 or 315 Killer Wot form (322, 362, 423 and 476 hp on Overboost). Its called the "intake manifold". Just because they do doesn't mean you must too.
Especially Will and Kelly's '63 Falcon, Turbocharged 250, C4, 9", Best ET: 10.64@127mph 11/21/14. This beast started with a 2 bbl 350 or laterly 4-bbl 450 cfm Carb before it went to a similarly restrictive 4150 4-bbl SDS port EFi system.
I'm not judging, just sayin'.
Air restriction should be upstream of the turbo, not down stream. Flow net analyses shows pinch points, and on production or race engines, engine noise, emissions or curtailing peak power is the reason for the restriction.
The ITB system works because of reduced air speed, and increase duty time to feed the engine, just like adding long rods, or a wider lobe center cam on an engine. Adding intake runner bends and restrictions always meters an engine, and pefroamce loss is a result. The Aussies found that adding cam duration within certain limits, adding intake volume to the EFI plenumb, and being free to take away or add ignition advance and fuel (witin limits) allows you freedom to get more power with less boost. within limits.
The idea is the same as running 2.5 " pipes instead of 3" to and from the inter/aftercooler. Its the same issue bandied about when you go for Four 2-bbl Weber IDA's on your 302 when you can do and reach the same horspower levels with one 4-bbl carb. Or toing down the came to avoid turbo surge. You change your turbo type, and dodge th turbo surge bullet by doing something better for performance. On a 6 ITB Normally aspirated EFi car, the air intake volume and intakes are made large.
Turbo guys taking a BEAMS 2 liter, or a Ford Broad Band Intake then diable the twin path intkae, and then run the pipes in small, and then say, hey, itsaul goode, Ned Bender. The extra cfm of a turbo raming Alien Air into Bishops andriod facial features features makes up for it. This idea needs to stop. Its an old idea, like a car needs back pressure or a carb can be too big for a turbo, a cam can bee too big for a turbo, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Maybee, but boost grows by restricting the air intake side at the turbo, and Ak Miller made a lot of TC-1 controllers that worked pretty good as a flow restrictor. It was Colin Townsend's Turbo 265 Propane 1970 VG Valiant that first figured out how to increase boost without turbo pressure line to intake restriction in 1996.
T04-equipped and running straight LP-gas with a tiny 4-bbl 462 cfm Impco CA 425 carb, this six-pack Val unleashed 375 rear wheel hp down the drive train. 480 hp from a carb that is normally restricted by the air valve to flowno more than 288 hp, or 325 hp from the converter. He modified it to flow more, but the lines are still stock 3/8" propane reinforced.
http://fa5t-drive.blogspot.com/2011/07/hyper-gas-hemi-t04.html?m=0
Colin Townsend said:
WRC World Rally Championship 2 liter Turbos racers had been using the 1984 F1 Ferrari 120 degree Turbo V6 style of anti lag with down stream injectors to get a turbo spining. Anti lag came of age with WRC in the late 90's. In Australia, the External Wastegate Air Feed Line Pressure Close Off that was Tassone/Rodriguez developed Active Automotive~Maztech way of creating boost without restricting the intake flow made a farly stock stroker erupt with 50 psi of boost.
I'm sure a Small block V8 or 460 Lima or whatever runs real nice with a restricted intake, but its not an ITB.
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Well it got here today......
Now I gotta figure out how to make it work.
It's markedly smaller than the previous BW piece ( at least that's how I remember it)
Old turbine wheel....
New turbine wheel...
Old compressor wheel..
New compressor wheel
Old compressor housing..
And,......well you can see it already from the above. The old frame was huge compared to this new piece,...the new piece internals are huge compared to the old one....
What's that mean to me?.......
I bought a Chinee turbo that hasn't been tariff'd by the KGB loving traitor yet.
So,...how to install this thing now,...clearly the old unit had a 3" outlet that had a cast 90 built in, and this thing doesn't. I was thinking I'd move it significantly forward, and put it where you V8 guys typically stick it, and run one straight charge tube run off of the compressor, and turn it 90 degrees into the air box. I'm gonna rely solely on water meth as an intercooler/ detonation inhibitor...probally activated at 5 psi...
I just don't know how I'm gonna get the tubing to the turbine housing yet, and how I'm gonna support that 30 pound lunker when it's hanging that far forward.
Now I gotta figure out how to make it work.
It's markedly smaller than the previous BW piece ( at least that's how I remember it)
Old turbine wheel....
New turbine wheel...
Old compressor wheel..
New compressor wheel
Old compressor housing..
And,......well you can see it already from the above. The old frame was huge compared to this new piece,...the new piece internals are huge compared to the old one....
What's that mean to me?.......
I bought a Chinee turbo that hasn't been tariff'd by the KGB loving traitor yet.
So,...how to install this thing now,...clearly the old unit had a 3" outlet that had a cast 90 built in, and this thing doesn't. I was thinking I'd move it significantly forward, and put it where you V8 guys typically stick it, and run one straight charge tube run off of the compressor, and turn it 90 degrees into the air box. I'm gonna rely solely on water meth as an intercooler/ detonation inhibitor...probally activated at 5 psi...
I just don't know how I'm gonna get the tubing to the turbine housing yet, and how I'm gonna support that 30 pound lunker when it's hanging that far forward.
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But where's the other turbo?
The ITB cars with tubos are DETT Nissans, and they have big plenumb volumes ahead of the ITB's.
H-U-G-E.
They'd have two holes or one big ovaloid hole to the upper plenumb if they were 4.1 liter engines, and not some namby pamby 2 and 2.6 liter Mouse trap Automatron Motor. A 250 six, well, thats an E-N-G-I-N-E.
If your normally aspirated ITB equiped 250 feels more restricted with an upper throttle body inlet manifold, then its simple to add more flow. Add more hole volume and area. Both.
Don't avoid the issue because of some half baked idea about restriction and reduced diamater helping mid range response et al.
You've got the best MegaSquirt guys in the world to calibrate and help you. And if your gonna use a single turbo, then lets at least make that sucker blow some serious boost into the intake.
Love where your going with this. I like the way you think. I'm sure you'll make this rock, but don't think backward, traditional Lo-Po restrictive intake. Open up the thing, and don't be afraid to optimise that glass aquarium you have. It needs more room to feed the six gold fish. Or are they Barra Mundies or 'Cudas?
Its already got flash, give it some more vent area, and it'll have some Bash....
The ITB cars with tubos are DETT Nissans, and they have big plenumb volumes ahead of the ITB's.
H-U-G-E.
They'd have two holes or one big ovaloid hole to the upper plenumb if they were 4.1 liter engines, and not some namby pamby 2 and 2.6 liter Mouse trap Automatron Motor. A 250 six, well, thats an E-N-G-I-N-E.
If your normally aspirated ITB equiped 250 feels more restricted with an upper throttle body inlet manifold, then its simple to add more flow. Add more hole volume and area. Both.
Don't avoid the issue because of some half baked idea about restriction and reduced diamater helping mid range response et al.
You've got the best MegaSquirt guys in the world to calibrate and help you. And if your gonna use a single turbo, then lets at least make that sucker blow some serious boost into the intake.
Love where your going with this. I like the way you think. I'm sure you'll make this rock, but don't think backward, traditional Lo-Po restrictive intake. Open up the thing, and don't be afraid to optimise that glass aquarium you have. It needs more room to feed the six gold fish. Or are they Barra Mundies or 'Cudas?
Its already got flash, give it some more vent area, and it'll have some Bash....
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But where's the other turbo?
The ITB cars with tubos are DETT Nissans, and they have big plenumb volumes ahead of the ITB's.
H-U-G-E.
They'd have two holes or one big ovaloid hole to the upper plenumb if they were 4.1 liter engines, and not some namby pamby 2 and 2.6 liter Mouse trap Automatron Motor. A 250 six, well, thats an E-N-G-I-N-E.
If your normally aspirated ITB equiped 250 feels more restricted with an upper throttle body inlet manifold, then its simple to add more flow. Add more hole volume and area. Both.
Don't avoid the issue because of some half baked idea about restriction and reduced diamater helping mid range response et al.
You've got the best MegaSquirt guys in the world to calibrate and help you. And if your gonna use a single turbo, then lets at least make that sucker blow some serious boost into the intake.
Love where your going with this. I like the way you think. I'm sure you'll make this rock, but don't think backward, traditional Lo-Po restrictive intake. Open up the thing, and don't be afraid to optimise that glass aquarium you have. It needs more room to feed the six gold fish. Or are they Barra Mundies or 'Cudas?
Its already got flash, give it some more vent area, and it'll have some Bash....
Just like the monster 60 gallon tank on my shop air compressor - air tools run for a long time before the regulated pressure drops enough to turn the electric motor on... A big plenum means that you never run out of pressurized air to fill the cylinders and the pressure never seriously drops off.
Despite my best laid plans, there's always something that causes me a little grief. There has been a steady stream of stuff left on my front porch for the last few days related to the turbo change back. While I was able to ferret away the turbo and Wastegate w/o notice, I had to work way late last night, and got home to find two boxes from summit sitting in the living room.
The wife always gets boxes from her work, so for her, there is an automatic process to check the front porch. Last night there was more out there than the ordinary literature and junk she normally gets......
In truth, she was ok with it...kinda.
But,......" Other than the turbo and wastegate Mike, what else could you possibly need to convert this back?" You may ask..
Well I'm glad you asked..
3" Exhaust tubing j bends.....3 of them. A 1.5" exhaust tubing j bend to build the new hot side/cold side.
A stinkin' vband flange, clamp, and gasket for my old BOV. I threw the old flange away thinkin that I'd never use it again, after I broke the old v band clamp,...effectively making my Chinese BOV too expensive to fix. The whole BOV kit cost me something like 50-60 bucks years ago, and is a Tial rip-off styled thing. After looking at what a replacement Chinee unit was gonna cost, I decided to just replace the whole thing if I ever went back...
So I looked,...and they're still 50-60 bucks,...But they come with an aluminum v band flange, and I need a mild steel one.
Which has to be bought separately....for 15 more bucks... Which makes the whole replacement 75.00 instead.
And it's Chinee .......with an uncertain " will it work?" Cloud hanging over it..
And I know the one I have does work.
So,...I bought the 15 dollar mild steel flange,...and the 30 DOLLAR aluminum v band clamp,...and the 14.00 o ring gasket....
SO I SPENT 60.00 to fix the 60.00 one I currently have.
And it all costs that stupid amount of money because it's for the actual Tial BOV.............The American one,........the $285.00 " made in USA one,.....NOT the Chinee 50-60.00 rip-off.
I bought an actual solenoid valve from Snow performance to act as a safety valve for the water meth kit...
And despite the fact that I have 3"silicone couplers, with their respective t bolt clamps all over the place...I had to buy 2.5" stuff for the new turbo....
And there's still several boxes left out there scheduled to arrive.......
That'll be on the front porch,....right next to Kate's literature...
The wife always gets boxes from her work, so for her, there is an automatic process to check the front porch. Last night there was more out there than the ordinary literature and junk she normally gets......
In truth, she was ok with it...kinda.
But,......" Other than the turbo and wastegate Mike, what else could you possibly need to convert this back?" You may ask..
Well I'm glad you asked..
3" Exhaust tubing j bends.....3 of them. A 1.5" exhaust tubing j bend to build the new hot side/cold side.
A stinkin' vband flange, clamp, and gasket for my old BOV. I threw the old flange away thinkin that I'd never use it again, after I broke the old v band clamp,...effectively making my Chinese BOV too expensive to fix. The whole BOV kit cost me something like 50-60 bucks years ago, and is a Tial rip-off styled thing. After looking at what a replacement Chinee unit was gonna cost, I decided to just replace the whole thing if I ever went back...
So I looked,...and they're still 50-60 bucks,...But they come with an aluminum v band flange, and I need a mild steel one.
Which has to be bought separately....for 15 more bucks... Which makes the whole replacement 75.00 instead.
And it's Chinee .......with an uncertain " will it work?" Cloud hanging over it..
And I know the one I have does work.
So,...I bought the 15 dollar mild steel flange,...and the 30 DOLLAR aluminum v band clamp,...and the 14.00 o ring gasket....
SO I SPENT 60.00 to fix the 60.00 one I currently have.
And it all costs that stupid amount of money because it's for the actual Tial BOV.............The American one,........the $285.00 " made in USA one,.....NOT the Chinee 50-60.00 rip-off.
I bought an actual solenoid valve from Snow performance to act as a safety valve for the water meth kit...
And despite the fact that I have 3"silicone couplers, with their respective t bolt clamps all over the place...I had to buy 2.5" stuff for the new turbo....
And there's still several boxes left out there scheduled to arrive.......
That'll be on the front porch,....right next to Kate's literature...
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Add work to your paypal or credit card as a ship to address. My wife gripes about the stuff always coming to the house. If she only saw what shows up at work! The big heavy expensive looking stuff goes to work!!!
Between dogging out techno-newbs,......Sunday is me an my wife day.
( it's how I stay healthy),...better to sacrifice one day, as opposed to suffering the potential mental abuse I would be assaulted with for attempting another " me, me, me" day....
So the lesser of two evils.
Even more so, when the morning of said day gives way to a great weather day, a great breakfast, followed by the annual Magic City Blues and Barbeque blues festival....
(Indoors I might add)
* from the balcony of one of our live music venues down town...
Living in the south....living in Birmingham..7 micro breweries, part of the culture of blues/soul/r&b.......no winters.....
Why live anywhere else?...and a fair trade for a day spent in the garage getting greasy.
That'll be tomorrow.
( it's how I stay healthy),...better to sacrifice one day, as opposed to suffering the potential mental abuse I would be assaulted with for attempting another " me, me, me" day....
So the lesser of two evils.
Even more so, when the morning of said day gives way to a great weather day, a great breakfast, followed by the annual Magic City Blues and Barbeque blues festival....
(Indoors I might add)
* from the balcony of one of our live music venues down town...
Living in the south....living in Birmingham..7 micro breweries, part of the culture of blues/soul/r&b.......no winters.....
Why live anywhere else?...and a fair trade for a day spent in the garage getting greasy.
That'll be tomorrow.
Today's the day off.....I have what I need to get well along with the re-conversion back to " fun to drive" status. What isn't here now is scheduled to be here later today.
I expect to run out of energy, before I run out of time or material though. We'll see.
In other news, the red Mini Cooper S is no longer my DD. I converted over to full BMW driver status on Saturday.....
It is far from cool, it's far from sexy, it's far from powerful though....But it's 100% BMW.
This dork-mobile is called an I3. It's BMWs attempt at a full electric. Mine looks exactly like this except that this is a standard photo...( I didn't wanna back it out of the garage)
" Why would you lease such a stupid looking car Mike?" You may ask....
It's got a160 mile range.
Employees get 15k off a 50k car..
I'm 3 miles away from the dealership..
This one has a gasoline powered backup generator should I forget or neglect to plug it in...it will always stay charged as long as there's gas in that tiny assed tank.
It's made out of raw carbon fiber...and CFRP. It's built in a plant that is powered entirely by renewable energy.
it lets me program it to either be cooled or heated inside when I get in the thing..........from my phone...
It's almost the fastest car from 0-30mph in the entire fleet,...with only the M cars being faster.
Oh yeah....it's electric....I don't have to buy freakin gas.
Today will be its maiden voyage as a parts scrounger when/if I get to that point.
I'm such a tree hugger.
I expect to run out of energy, before I run out of time or material though. We'll see.
In other news, the red Mini Cooper S is no longer my DD. I converted over to full BMW driver status on Saturday.....
It is far from cool, it's far from sexy, it's far from powerful though....But it's 100% BMW.
This dork-mobile is called an I3. It's BMWs attempt at a full electric. Mine looks exactly like this except that this is a standard photo...( I didn't wanna back it out of the garage)
" Why would you lease such a stupid looking car Mike?" You may ask....
It's got a160 mile range.
Employees get 15k off a 50k car..
I'm 3 miles away from the dealership..
This one has a gasoline powered backup generator should I forget or neglect to plug it in...it will always stay charged as long as there's gas in that tiny assed tank.
It's made out of raw carbon fiber...and CFRP. It's built in a plant that is powered entirely by renewable energy.
it lets me program it to either be cooled or heated inside when I get in the thing..........from my phone...
It's almost the fastest car from 0-30mph in the entire fleet,...with only the M cars being faster.
Oh yeah....it's electric....I don't have to buy freakin gas.
Today will be its maiden voyage as a parts scrounger when/if I get to that point.
I'm such a tree hugger.
I honestly considered a street legal electric scooter for a work commuter. If only I didnt have to take and pick up my kids 3 days a week.
Looking forward to Monster progress updates this afternoon.
Looking forward to Monster progress updates this afternoon.
That's a face only a mother could love. My wife would say"Don't bring it home....Today's the day off.....I have what I need to get well along with the re-conversion back to " fun to drive" status. What isn't here now is scheduled to be here later today.
I expect to run out of energy, before I run out of time or material though. We'll see.
In other news, the red Mini Cooper S is no longer my DD. I converted over to full BMW driver status on Saturday.....
It is far from cool, it's far from sexy, it's far from powerful though....But it's 100% BMW.
This dork-mobile is called an I3. It's BMWs attempt at a full electric. Mine looks exactly like this except that this is a standard photo...( I didn't wanna back it out of the garage)
" Why would you lease such a stupid looking car Mike?" You may ask....
It's got a160 mile range.
Employees get 15k off a 50k car..
I'm 3 miles away from the dealership..
This one has a gasoline powered backup generator should I forget or neglect to plug it in...it will always stay charged as long as there's gas in that tiny assed tank.
It's made out of raw carbon fiber...and CFRP. It's built in a plant that is powered entirely by renewable energy.
it lets me program it to either be cooled or heated inside when I get in the thing..........from my phone...
It's almost the fastest car from 0-30mph in the entire fleet,...with only the M cars being faster.
Oh yeah....it's electric....I don't have to buy freakin gas.
Today will be its maiden voyage as a parts scrounger when/if I get to that point.
I'm such a tree hugger.
It's TINY.
A flatulent spell would probably blow out a window. but curious though, for only having a 3 mile commute, at what point does it make sense to go all electric? I'm 25 miles one-way and my 93 octane guzzling Infiniti still barely uses a tank a week.
A flatulent spell would probably blow out a window. but curious though, for only having a 3 mile commute, at what point does it make sense to go all electric? I'm 25 miles one-way and my 93 octane guzzling Infiniti still barely uses a tank a week.
I'm so broken...
12 full hours spent in the garage, stopping only for lunch, and a white monster break.
My knees are screaming, my back is stiff...I was so freakin dirty I had to go straight to the shower to even begin to get back to middle ground.
But, despite the 12 straight hours,.....I'm only half way there.
There's a lot of mocked up stuff in this pic...the charge tube coming off the turbo is actually slid over the silicone hose. There is no tube between the 4"45 coming off the compressor inlet, and the 90 degree turn that the filter is attached to. The turbo is hangin there,. Held on by only two bolts. And the Wastegate has no tube mounted to the flange that is now welded to the down pipe.. The down pipe isn't complete, there's no drain line, there's no oil feed line either.
I had to notch the down pipe so I could get the bitch past the #2 header tube. Cutting the kerf here is actually overly ambitious, the tube barely sticks into the path,..but it sticks into the path nonetheless. I must've spent two hours today trying to make it fit differently, and trashed the coated finish on the tube as a result,..but I gave up and just cut the hell out of it so I could move on.
Yep, you're seeing it right,....no intercooler. I intend to use water meth as my octane booster/intercooler. I'm gonna plumb a nozzle right before the orange 90, which will be immediately after that gi- honkin BOV. I'm gonna build a strap that ties that tube to the front throttle body, so the tube won't/can't blow off. I bought one of those exhaust step down reducers that will allow me to weld the 2.5" to 3" transition on the end of the charge tube.
The bridge to nowhere....only the corner of the Wastegate flange is welded in place. I figure that ill slide a 1.5" tube through the hole in the flange, and weld the thing from the inside..
We'll see how well that plan goes..
All in all I'm happy with how it's turning out..I had to change it up from the way the old system was built because there is a new header,..and it would've had to be cut the hell up to get the turbo sitting close to the same place..
Besides,..I wanted to keep the charge tube as close to straight as possible with a minimum amount of turns.
So, hopefully I can stand up when it's time to go to bed...
I'm so broken.
12 full hours spent in the garage, stopping only for lunch, and a white monster break.
My knees are screaming, my back is stiff...I was so freakin dirty I had to go straight to the shower to even begin to get back to middle ground.
But, despite the 12 straight hours,.....I'm only half way there.
There's a lot of mocked up stuff in this pic...the charge tube coming off the turbo is actually slid over the silicone hose. There is no tube between the 4"45 coming off the compressor inlet, and the 90 degree turn that the filter is attached to. The turbo is hangin there,. Held on by only two bolts. And the Wastegate has no tube mounted to the flange that is now welded to the down pipe.. The down pipe isn't complete, there's no drain line, there's no oil feed line either.
I had to notch the down pipe so I could get the bitch past the #2 header tube. Cutting the kerf here is actually overly ambitious, the tube barely sticks into the path,..but it sticks into the path nonetheless. I must've spent two hours today trying to make it fit differently, and trashed the coated finish on the tube as a result,..but I gave up and just cut the hell out of it so I could move on.
Yep, you're seeing it right,....no intercooler. I intend to use water meth as my octane booster/intercooler. I'm gonna plumb a nozzle right before the orange 90, which will be immediately after that gi- honkin BOV. I'm gonna build a strap that ties that tube to the front throttle body, so the tube won't/can't blow off. I bought one of those exhaust step down reducers that will allow me to weld the 2.5" to 3" transition on the end of the charge tube.
The bridge to nowhere....only the corner of the Wastegate flange is welded in place. I figure that ill slide a 1.5" tube through the hole in the flange, and weld the thing from the inside..
We'll see how well that plan goes..
All in all I'm happy with how it's turning out..I had to change it up from the way the old system was built because there is a new header,..and it would've had to be cut the hell up to get the turbo sitting close to the same place..
Besides,..I wanted to keep the charge tube as close to straight as possible with a minimum amount of turns.
So, hopefully I can stand up when it's time to go to bed...
I'm so broken.
looking good Mike! you may still beat hoopty to the finish line with a running turbo car.
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