Progress Thread The Tale Of Elsuperpinto (The Return of ElSuperBackburner... running edition)

74stang2togo

Oooh! CT!!!
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You can run carburator with a return-less, low-pressure fuel pump. There is a solenoid witch keeps the pump only running when the engine runs AND it will prime the pump for some seconds, when you put the key to "ignition on". You can also jumper this solenoid by an additional switch that you can prime "by hand".
I know, but I really wanted EFI. Be careful what you wish for, am I right? :rlaugh:
 
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LILCBRA

I started this morning by knocking out some studs
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I thought about fuel injecting the Cobra exactly how you were thinking with an A9L and Explorer GT40 intake. And I though about exactly what you ran into with clearances and abandoned that idea. Now I have a Fox that I can mess with fuel injection on and it somewhat forces me to tune the carburetor to get it right. Once I get the double pumper tuned, I have a 600 vacuum secondary sitting on a shelf in my car port that I'm going to rebuild and go through too. I figure I can bolt that on for most of my cruising and whatnot and have the double pumper for dyno days and, if I ever get it there, track days. I'd say if you're not too happy with that FI setup you could probably sell it to someone and throw a carb back on it. It sounds like the carburetor would at least be more consistent.
 

74stang2togo

Oooh! CT!!!
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Does it have to relearn if you disconnect or battery goes dead?
It does not ha e a 'advanced mode' so you can tune it yourself?
It has a handheld it comes with that you can use for certain adjustments, including (and I kid you not) a mimic of pump squirt. The overall tuning is self-learn only via its wide-band O2.

I'd say if you're not too happy with that FI setup you could probably sell it to someone and throw a carb back on it. It sounds like the carburetor would at least be more consistent.
I've thought about it, a lot.

The problem is, Atomic EFI was the straw that broke MSD's back. It was a flop, and they went bankrupt and were bought by Holley, who promptly cut the Atomic EFI system's price in half and slotted it below their own entry-level system in their lineup.

The system that retailed for $2500 when I bought it can be picked up for all of $1200 now, and the prices I've seen used systems go for on Ebay aren't encouraging.

I've played with the idea of building my own EFI system from scratch. The wideband O2 and fuel pump are already there, and there are plenty of carburetor-style manifolds with cast-in bosses for fuel injection these days. A 5.9 Chrysler/Holley throttle body from the mid 90s would bolt to one with an adapter plate, and I could use either the Mopar or a Ford TPS with it, and put a carb-style air cleaner over it. Put a MAP sensor in a vacuum port, and figure out IAC (if the TB doesn't have a spot for one) and get a Megasquirt to run it all. Hell, I do it with all Ford sensors, and run the "Jeep hat" and add mass air, an A9P or A9L could run it.
 
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extra_stout

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If the injection point is far away from the intake valve, you don't have the full potential of EFI. So in my opinion this fake carb systems (especially on weekend cars) are not worth it. You need the injector near to the intake valve and full-sequential injection is also an improvement.
So your way sounds good! With the right mega squirt you can also run full sequential ignition...
And the best on your solution is, you can put a carb on it to get it working ;-)
@LILCBRA: if you have this 600 vacuum secondary laying around you can overcome the downsides of you double pumper (which is to big PVCR holes in the main metering plate) if you swap the main metering plate of the 600 carb to the double pumper. This will reduce the "misalignment" of the track-oriented double pumper, when the power valve is open. But you must be very carefull when tuning, that you do not get some lean condition! I know one engine (5.0 HO with AFR165 heads) where it is running great with very good MPG and performance.
 
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74stang2togo

Oooh! CT!!!
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If the injection point is far away from the intake valve, you don't have the full potential of EFI. So in my opinion this fake carb systems (especially on weekend cars) are not worth it. You need the injector near to the intake valve and full-sequential injection is also an improvement.
You have a point, but don't be so quick to dismiss TBI systems entirely. I lump the MSD Atomic in with the cheap Chinese systems from FiTech and Professional Products as the bottom-tier. They're not even as good as the factory TBI system used by GM in the 80s and 90s (which, while not great for performance, was incredibly fuel efficient, easy to live with, and VERY reliable). Then you've got Holley's systems that are a step above GM's old factory offerings, and then you've got incredibly good systems from companies like FAST and Holley that have even been used successfully in competition.

TBI is inferior in MANY ways to all other forms of fuel injection, but it's not completely useless, and with the exception of the bottom-tier systems, they have nothing but advantages over carburetors. For a cruiser or a daily driven classic, it's not a bad choice for a simple one-day project to improve drivability and fuel efficiency on an older car.
 
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74stang2togo

Oooh! CT!!!
Mod Dude
Mar 7, 2002
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I thought about fuel injecting the Cobra exactly how you were thinking with an A9L and Explorer GT40 intake. And I though about exactly what you ran into with clearances and abandoned that idea. Now I have a Fox that I can mess with fuel injection on and it somewhat forces me to tune the carburetor to get it right. Once I get the double pumper tuned, I have a 600 vacuum secondary sitting on a shelf in my car port that I'm going to rebuild and go through too. I figure I can bolt that on for most of my cruising and whatnot and have the double pumper for dyno days and, if I ever get it there, track days. I'd say if you're not too happy with that FI setup you could probably sell it to someone and throw a carb back on it. It sounds like the carburetor would at least be more consistent.
It has a handheld it comes with that you can use for certain adjustments, including (and I kid you not) a mimic of pump squirt. The overall tuning is self-learn only via its wide-band O2.



I've thought about it, a lot.

The problem is, Atomic EFI was the straw that broke MSD's back. It was a flop, and they went bankrupt and were bought by Holley, who promptly cut the Atomic EFI system's price in half and slotted it below their own entry-level system in their lineup.

The system that retailed for $2500 when I bought it can be picked up for all of $1200 now, and the prices I've seen used systems go for on Ebay aren't encouraging.

I've played with the idea of building my own EFI system from scratch. The wideband O2 and fuel pump are already there, and there are plenty of carburetor-style manifolds with cast-in bosses for fuel injection these days. A 5.9 Chrysler/Holley throttle body from the mid 90s would bolt to one with an adapter plate, and I could use either the Mopar or a Ford TPS with it, and put a carb-style air cleaner over it. Put a MAP sensor in a vacuum port, and figure out IAC (if the TB doesn't have a spot for one) and get a Megasquirt to run it all. Hell, I do it with all Ford sensors, and run the "Jeep hat" and add mass air, an A9P or A9L could run it.
If the injection point is far away from the intake valve, you don't have the full potential of EFI. So in my opinion this fake carb systems (especially on weekend cars) are not worth it. You need the injector near to the intake valve and full-sequential injection is also an improvement.
So your way sounds good! With the right mega squirt you can also run full sequential ignition...
And the best on your solution is, you can put a carb on it to get it working ;-)
@LILCBRA: if you have this 600 vacuum secondary laying around you can overcome the downsides of you double pumper (which is to big PVCR holes in the main metering plate) if you swap the main metering plate of the 600 carb to the double pumper. This will reduce the "misalignment" of the track-oriented double pumper, when the power valve is open. But you must be very carefull when tuning, that you do not get some lean condition! I know one engine (5.0 HO with AFR165 heads) where it is running great with very good MPG and performance.
Dammit, now ya'll have me thinking about it again.

In fact, I've gone down a completely different rabbit hole involving the old F150 lower manifold and custom building my own box-style upper to guarantee hood clearance... and if the idea of cobbling together a system with a commercially-available manifold appealed to me, you KNOW the idea of a junkyard lower with my own custom-built upper REALLY has the wheels turning...
 

74stang2togo

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Drove it back to work from the house on my lunch break. Took the time to replace the after-pump fuel filter, grease all of the front end stuff that needed it, and get out the handheld and play with the A/F mixture settings since the MSD Catatonic EFI is sleeping on the damned job and leaning out at wide open throttle.



AND I TOOK PICS!


There's the fuel filter that got replaced.

20200513_163353.jpg







I've had the motor mount rebuild kit Brett invented in the garage for years... it's long past time to use it.
20200513_163325.jpg




The next two are showing off my exhaust setup for @LILCBRA
20200513_163241.jpg
20200513_163231_HDR.jpg




Wouldn't you know? The crankshaft seal is dripping again. I mean, it could be worse, it could be the rear main, but I replaced that seal all of three years ago before I parked the damned thing, and it's the type that's driven-in from the inside, so that means tearing down the front of the engine AGAIN! I'm sorely tempted to see if I can't yank the engine on a Saturday at the shop, clean it real well, replace the oil pan gasket, timing set, and paint it before dropping it back in. That'd be a couple of Saturdays' worth of work, but I don't think my boss would care as long as I got BMWs fixed and made THAT my priority.
20200513_163224_HDR.jpg


I'm really enjoying having it running again. I've been pricing out upgrades and replacement parts for the front end (I may have some questions for @429MII about eliminating the strut rods since he did that for his build), as well as 5 lug axle shafts and rear disc brakes (though I may go the Explorer route there), as well as bigger wheels and tires (I just might try and fit a 275/35/20 under the rear... I have my reasons).
 

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74stang2togo

Oooh! CT!!!
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Wow, that's some fancy hose routing, don't let cma see this, it be 'Lucy you gots sum splain'n to do'.
The transmission cooler hoses were routed differently before the manual rack install. Now they're routed in the position known as "it ain't hurtin nothin so I don't give a damn right now".

The fuel hose... well... that's on the list of reasons I don't like the Mostly Starts Dammit Catatonic EFI. You have to run rubber hose with it due to cavitation concerns apparently. The day that $2100 mistake is off the car will be a very good day.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t3G1uvnzfA

For the record though, the fuel hose's only questionable routing point is that bend against the left rear bump-stop. There's just not enough room up there to get the hose away from it without wholesale re-routing and re-wiring, which, I'm actively trying to avoid while I weigh my options. (If this damned pandemic would shove off and the economy would stabilize it'd be easier to figure out the next step.) From that point forward, the hose is tied to the factory fuel line or brake lines, and is even wrapped in insulation where it passes above the exhaust and subframe connector. Once it gets to the firewall, it is tucked tight to the underside of the car, and passes through a body plug below the master cylinder (with a grommet around it) before it snakes along the firewall to the throttle body.

See here: https://stangnet.com/mustang-forums...ts.894996/page-19#lg=attachment651138&slide=0

Those transmission cooler hoses though? Yeah, they're sloppy and laying on the sway bar right now. :D
 
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LILCBRA

I started this morning by knocking out some studs
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Is it your front seal or the pan gasket itself? I found it was actually my pan gasket, although I installed the damper sleeve anyway. The damper actually looked good, especially given the fact that I believe it's the original 68 unit from my engine. I've thought about replacing it at some point but then again I had the rotating assembly balanced with that damper, I don't know how much it would be affected if I were to swap it out with something else. Anyway, take a good look at your damper too, it could be worn which would render a new seal basically useless. If it were me, I think I'd just plan on installing the repair sleeve anyway. They're not that much money and would give you a tad larger diameter for the seal to contact.
 

74stang2togo

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Is it your front seal or the pan gasket itself? I found it was actually my pan gasket, although I installed the damper sleeve anyway. The damper actually looked good, especially given the fact that I believe it's the original 68 unit from my engine. I've thought about replacing it at some point but then again I had the rotating assembly balanced with that damper, I don't know how much it would be affected if I were to swap it out with something else. Anyway, take a good look at your damper too, it could be worn which would render a new seal basically useless. If it were me, I think I'd just plan on installing the repair sleeve anyway. They're not that much money and would give you a tad larger diameter for the seal to contact.
I sleeved it last time. It's actually dribbling down the cover. Don't get me wrong, the pan gasket is leaking too, because cork, but the seal apparently didn't like being installed, getting about an hour of run tume, and then sitting for years.
 
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74stang2togo

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II started right up this morning. Still detonating and falling on it's ass at 5k, but I know what I'm looking for to tune it out... I think... so no biggie.

Then I start it to go to lunch, and it's idling at 1700rpm.

I get it to the house, same thing.

Start it up to head to work, and 1700 has become 2000. Get to work, plug in MSD's handheld, and the EFI system is fully aware it's idling 1200rpm too high, it says the iac is fully closed, and throttle position is 0% open.

This little bastard is sitting there like this:

This-is-Fine-300x300.jpg


Run the check for trouble codes, to my astonishment (not really, had this issue with it twice before) no trouble codes.

Mostly Starts Dammit strikes again!
 

74stang2togo

Oooh! CT!!!
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Found a replacement IAC for the MSD EFI ($13 including shipping from RockAuto, from some brand I've never heard of, but they can hardly do worse, and if they did, I'll go grab a few off of various GM applications that use this particular IAC at the salvage yard for about $2 each).

This is the last straw for the Mostly Starts Dammit Catatonic EFI. It'll be coming off of the car after the next good paycheck buys a new carburetor and fuel pump (or just the fuel pump if I can find one of the old Holley or Edelbrock 600-650cfm carburetors I know I have laying around and rebuild it) this IAC is just to keep it drivable until then, and so I can sell it as a working system.

Started thinking about the amount of rust in the cooling system, and the timing cover seal leaking, and the water pump leak that was there before but is now miraculously no longer leaking (I bet it's sealed with rusty gunk) and decide to price a water pump, oil pan gasket set, and timing cover set.

HOLY :poo:! WHEN DID WATER PUMPS GET SO EXPENSIVE? Ford 302 water pumps used be all of $20-30 at the parts store, and now even RockAuto wants $53 for the CHEAP one.

Napa has a Cardone (bleh) reman for $42, or the guys on Ebay I got my TRW outer tie rod ends from have a Carter water pump for $35 that's new old stock.

Choices choices choices... an Airtex (never tried their water pumps, but their fuel pumps have been absolute dog :poo: over the years) from Rock Auto for $53, a Cardone (it's not their water pumps I have a bad history with, its actually their power steering parts, but they've left a bad taste in my mouth over the years) for $42, or a vintage Carter pump for $35 that's been sitting so long that the seals may have dried up... or wait and see what the impeller on the one that's currently on the car looks like when I pull it, seeing as I do still have coolant circulation and it's not overheating in spite of the disgusting content of the cooling system.

It sure cost a lot less when it was just yard art... :confused:
 

LILCBRA

I started this morning by knocking out some studs
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It sure cost a lot less when it was just yard art... :confused:
I know that feeling!
I have friends with horses who asked why I don't get one. I tell them that more or less. I tell them that living horses will ALWAYS cost something, they require food and, at least in my case, boarding. If I were to lose my job - which has happened on more than one occasion before I changed careers - I could let my Mustang sit until I can do something with it, but I couldn't do that with a horse. And my Mustangs have been yard art many times. Same goes with my 55. But now that I'm finally diving back in with not one, but two, my bank account will continue to flow to all sorts of vendors.

Have you thought of throwing a high flow water pump on it? They're definitely not cheap either! I think I paid around $100 for mine back in I 2003(?) - I can't imagine what they've skyrocketed to. And you'd have to add a spring for the lower hose to the mix which only adds to the money going out. But like I said, I installed it back around 2003 and haven't had any problems with it yet, and I obviously haven't driven it a lot. Just an option, although a more expensive one....
 
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