cleveland parts

I think you got one thing wrong up there. The Bad ass engine legislated out of existence wasn't the Mopar Hemi, but the Ford SOHC 427. And only then cause Nascar didn't want to give the "Wine & Cheese" racers from Europe a foot in the door with their high tech small displacement V8's (that got their butts handed to them with a big nasty passenger car pushrod V8 at Lemans )
Both are true - oh and wasn't there someone recently who wanted to run the Boss 429 engine in top fuel drags, so the NHRA outlawed that Ford engine as well? It gets easier to compete when you just change the rules every time some one beats you. :rolleyes:
 
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Worst American car of the post-war era: two-way tie: the '60 Corvair (maybe the greatest disregard for the customer's safety of any car ever built) and the '61 Tempest (with the Corvair transaxle, the cut-in-half V8, and the rope drive to try to mask the vibrations); truly a terrible, terrible device. Then there are all the horrible '70s' cars from Mopar. Ford doesn't even have a horse in this race.customer. Honorable mention: the early '69 Boss 302 (happy now?) and the '81 Cadillac 8-6-4.
And while we're pondering where is Ford in Pro Stock these days -- and who isn't? :shrug: -- we might also ask where is the "stock" in Pro Stock these days? As in, who cares?

SAFETY?? How about the PINTO internal memo comparing the cost of building the car the cheap way and the death benifit pay-out versus building the car the right way. The cheap way with more deaths by fire won out. I do believe FORD wins the DEATH CAR championship series with the internal gas tanks in Mustangs, the fires in Pinto's and the roll-over deaths in Explorers...you do remember the 26 psi Ford said to run and the 32 psi Firestone said to run in those tires...right.
Had a 63 Corvair with Good-Year Speedway Blue-Streak tires and we couldn't turn that car over if we tried. The swing axle would tuck the tire under causing it to roll-up on the side-wall and spin out, but I know of nobody who ever turned one over like Nader claimed in "Unsafe at Any Speed".

As far as Pro-Stock....ALL the Ford guys cared when Glidden ruled with a 500 cid engine in the late 80's. Didn't you? Now Pro-Stock doesn't mean a ting, right? What did Ford ever do in Modified-Eliminator when it was still here? Or S/S? Or Stock. Befor the 428 CJ...not too much. But on the street...Chevy was and still is KING.
 
As far as Pro-Stock....ALL the Ford guys cared when Glidden ruled with a 500 cid engine in the late 80's. Didn't you? Now Pro-Stock doesn't mean a ting, right? What did Ford ever do in Modified-Eliminator when it was still here? Or S/S? Or Stock. Befor the 428 CJ...not too much. But on the street...Chevy was and still is KING.

First things first: The 428CJ orginated at Tasca Ford in Rhode Island.

Reading your last few posts I think you should be posting on a Chevy board. You have completely abandoned your arguement regarding the cause of failure of the Boss 302 to instead chest thump about Chevy's "superiority" over Ford.
What's next, whose dad is the strongest?
 
SAFETY?? How about the PINTO internal memo comparing the cost of building the car the cheap way and the death benifit pay-out versus building the car the right way. The cheap way with more deaths by fire won out.
I would much prefer having the gas tank sitting in my lap, as was done with the Corvair. Wouldn't you?

Your version of the Pinto story is an urban myth. It's true that it was a cost/benefit calculation which led to the design of the Pinto, but like all engineering decisions it was based on a determination that the car's fuel system design was sufficiently safe not to merit the multi-millions it would have cost to redesign the car, when crash testing revealed problems. The estimated costs of civil liability played no part in the decision-making process. Where would an engineer get such data, anyway, with any degree of reliability?

In other words, Ford followed exactly the same analysis as GM had applied to the Corvair's roll-over problem:

"But GM had not forseen that the Corvair picked up a sporty image - they had intended it for the market as an economy car, aimed at conservative drivers. While the car handled well when driven sedately, a driver who tested its limits might get it to roll over.

"The designers who had planned the Corvair had prefered to add anti-sway bars. But to save a measly $4 per car, those bars were not included in the final product.

"The Corvair had 62-percent of its weight on the back wheels. It would have been a good idea to use better suspension techniques than a simple swing-axle in order to make it not suffer oversteer."
 
SAFETY?? How about the PINTO internal memo comparing the cost of building the car the cheap way and the death benifit pay-out versus building the car the right way. The cheap way with more deaths by fire won out. I do believe FORD wins the DEATH CAR championship series with the internal gas tanks in Mustangs, the fires in Pinto's and the roll-over deaths in Explorers...you do remember the 26 psi Ford said to run and the 32 psi Firestone said to run in those tires...right.

alright, let us look at a few of these things, first the pinto. that memo that indicated the cost comparison was REQUIRED by the nhtsa, using nhtsa numbers. in other word the government required ford to hang themselves. second, the few pintos that did have their tanks rupture were hit by cars the were traveling at high speeds, and were much heavier than the pinto, on the order of 2 to 3 times the weight. in fact the biggest news was the pinto the burst into flames, and the person who died sued ford. the article casually mentioned that the dodge van that hit the pinto was doing 70mph at the time and the driver never hit his brakes. hmmmmmm interesting that the media threw it in as an after thought isnt it.

as for the ford explorers, the firestone tires were a defective tire, THAT was proved in court. it seems that firestone used wire in their steel belts that were corroded, and would fail dramtically on a regular basis, and not just on explorers, but many other vehicles as well. now the explorer is a high centered vehicle, and most people faced with an emergency stuation, like a tire blowing out, panic and do stupid things like hit the brakes hard, over correct when steering etc. they also tend to drive high centered vehicles like the explorer as though it was some like an ltd station wagon. car and driver tested the theory that explorers were prone to rolling over when the left rear tire blew out at speed. they bought a 91 explorer, and except for replacing shocks, that had long ago died, with stock replacement ones, and installing a roll cage to protect the driver, and rigging the left rear tire to deflate suddenly, the vehicle was as it came off the used car lot, and it was stock. they started the test at 30mph and went all the way to 70mph, and each time the explorer tracked perfectly each time, until the 70 mph test, when it wiggled a bit and required a minor steering correction. but never through out the test, did the explorer do anything to indicate a propensity to roll over.

how about you decide to study the real facts rather than just spout something you heard or read once or twice.
 
As far as Pro-Stock....ALL the Ford guys cared when Glidden ruled with a 500 cid engine in the late 80's. Didn't you? Now Pro-Stock doesn't mean a ting, right? What did Ford ever do in Modified-Eliminator when it was still here? Or S/S? Or Stock. Befor the 428 CJ...not too much. But on the street...Chevy was and still is KING.

how about when gapp and roush ruled the early to mid 70's, glidden held court from the mid 70's on until he retired. in fact during the 1978 season, glidden owned both the nhra and ahra pro stock ranks winning everything that season(his record was 32-0). and just to prove it wasnt the 351c engine he was using at the time, he switched to plymouth for the 1979 season, and dominated that in a plymouth arrow. switched back to ford in 1980 and continued his dominance of pro stock racing. after glidden retired i had high hopes that ricky smith would take over the reins as the leading ford driver, but sadly that didnt happen. as for s/s, s/a, ss/s ss/a, a/fx, b/fx, and other drag racing classes in the 60's and 70's, ford held their own with chevy, pontiac, buick, oldsmobile, chrysler, plymouth, dodge, and amc.

as for the street, ford held their own there too. for example a car and driver road test from 1966. six cars the olds 442, chevelle 396, pontiac gto, buick skylark grand sport, ford fairlane gt/a, and the mercury comet gt.

engines in each

olds 442-400
gto-389
chevelle-396
buick-401
fairlane-390
comet-390

1/4 mile times and speeds

olds-14.59 at 100.55
gto-14.05 at 105.14
chevelle ss-14.66 at 99.88
buick-14.92 at 95.13
fairlane-14.26 at 99
comet-13.98 at 103.98

hmmm seems the comet was quickest, and the gto was fastest with the chevelle back in 5th place time wise and 4th place speed wise. yeah the chevelle really dominates here. ok on the road course then eh?

lap time around bridgehampton
olds-2:06.0
chevelle-2:08.1
gto-2:06.8
buick-2:08.5
fairlane-2:08.1
comet-2:05.8

hmmm, again the comet comes out on top with the fairlane and chevelle tied for 4th place. yeah the chevy again really dominated here too.

well perhaps these are not represetitive of chevy's dominance. lets look at the pony cars shall we?

car and driver march 1968
six pony cars

amc javelin sst 390ci
camaro ss 396ci
mustang 2+2 gt 390ci
mercury cougar xr7 390ci
plymouth barracuda formula s 340ci
pontiac firebird 400 ho 400ci

1/4 mile times and mph

javelin 15.2 at 91.9
camaro 15.0 at 93.9
mustang 14.8 at 94.6
cougar 15.1 at 93.7
barracuda 14.3 at 99.1
firebird 14.2 at 100.3

oh yeah! again real dominance by the chevy camp 4th quickest and 4th fastest. do you see a trend here mike? chevy may dominate now and then, but not all the time. ford dominates now and them but not all the time. same with other manufacturers.

mike go back to your barbie dolls, and when you grow up, then come back here and get an education.
 
I was gone on vacation for a week and thought I'd drop in on some good discussion on 351C parts. What's up with the Ford bashing? Mikethebike, if you want to continue with your superiority attitude, take it to one of the talk forums. It's OT and belongs elsewhere. I come here to see what I can pickup from other knowledgeable people not bicker over chevy's "superiority".
 
I think what is going on here is I am willing to admit the truth about those motors and that is that they were DEFFECTIVE in design. otherwise Ford would not have put the first production electronic rev-limiter on the damn things and all you "Ford can do no wrong" types cannot stand the truth.
I owned a 1970 and bought a 69 motor to go through and install when I broke the 70's motor. Funny how my 271hp289 would rev 7000+ and not need a rebuild for more than 60,000 miles but at around 35,000 the 302 broke 7 pistons. I would NEVER own another without the 5.4" rods. Find a copy of SS%DI and read about their 318" BOSS drag car that ruined cylinder walls.
Her's the truth about street Fords in the 1960's....THEY COULD NOT KEEP-UP WITH THE CHEVY'S AND MOPARS.....not until a former Chevy division president named Bunky Kundsen came over and created the 428 CJ, BOSS 302 and BOSS 429. Didn't like hearing THAT, did you. And please, answer this...exactly WHERE is Ford in Pro-Stock nowadays?
Don't get me wrong, I really like my little 289 65 coupe...but I do know and admit the truth. And the truth will be that if GM builds the new Camaro it will cost the same or less than the Mustang and outperform it in all catorgories. Always has..always will.:hail2:


i'm starting to think this guy is a politician, he never answers a question with a direct answer and more often than not changes the subject and avoids the question altogether. i've always been a ford guy amd always will be a ford guy, so you're close to right when you say i'm in the ford can do wrong camp, obviously they are not the best car company in the world but there is no best in the world, just the one that any given person like the best and it's obvious you like chevy the best. so, WTF are you doing hanging out on a ford message board?


if the camaro outperforms the mustang and cost so much less then why do you suppose it's been AWOL for the last 6 years? could it be that it's because the total combined F-body production for the last 4 years of camaro production was less than 30,000 units per year? that is firebird and camaro production not just camaro, BTW, vs mustang production of like 70,000 plus in those same years.
 
Mikethebike, people will start liking you a lot more when you start liking yourself a lot less. Just a thought.

Best pushrod engine ever? The LS7, Of course, not many people are making pushrod engines with 2007 technology.
 
I think he's also conviently forgotten that Chevy was NEVER competetive in Nascar back in the 60's to early 70's. Wasn't untill Ford and Mopar dropped their involvement in it that Chevy's started to dominate the scene, and that's not because of the superiority of the SBC. You can win any contest if you throw enough men, parts, engines etc into play. And as for his Explorer comment, he also forgot that when anyone drives an SUV at 100 mph and blows a tire, ANY SVU will be subject to a rollover. That's also true for any vehicle with tires that have sidewalls that're 6-8 inches tall. Blow the tire, vehicle "sinks" suddenly by a half a foot on one corner, that destabilizes any thing. at that speed. It takes an experienced driver to be able to control a vehicle in that situation. Not a Soccer Mom screaming at her kids when it happens.
 
I think he's also conviently forgotten that Chevy was NEVER competetive in Nascar back in the 60's to early 70's. Wasn't untill Ford and Mopar dropped their involvement in it that Chevy's started to dominate the scene, and that's not because of the superiority of the SBC. You can win any contest if you throw enough men, parts, engines etc into play. And as for his Explorer comment, he also forgot that when anyone drives an SUV at 100 mph and blows a tire, ANY SVU will be subject to a rollover. That's also true for any vehicle with tires that have sidewalls that're 6-8 inches tall. Blow the tire, vehicle "sinks" suddenly by a half a foot on one corner, that destabilizes any thing. at that speed. It takes an experienced driver to be able to control a vehicle in that situation. Not a Soccer Mom screaming at her kids when it happens.

all good points DH. you are right that ford and chrysler were the dominant marques in the mid 60's, but dont forget pontiac, they dominated in the early 60's, and hudson was the marque to use in the 50's.
 
alright, let us look at a few of these things, first the pinto. that memo that indicated the cost comparison was REQUIRED by the nhtsa, using nhtsa numbers. in other word the government required ford to hang themselves. second, the few pintos that did have their tanks rupture were hit by cars the were traveling at high speeds, and were much heavier than the pinto, on the order of 2 to 3 times the weight. in fact the biggest news was the pinto the burst into flames, and the person who died sued ford. the article casually mentioned that the dodge van that hit the pinto was doing 70mph at the time and the driver never hit his brakes. hmmmmmm interesting that the media threw it in as an after thought isnt it.

as for the ford explorers, the firestone tires were a defective tire, THAT was proved in court. it seems that firestone used wire in their steel belts that were corroded, and would fail dramtically on a regular basis, and not just on explorers, but many other vehicles as well. now the explorer is a high centered vehicle, and most people faced with an emergency stuation, like a tire blowing out, panic and do stupid things like hit the brakes hard, over correct when steering etc. they also tend to drive high centered vehicles like the explorer as though it was some like an ltd station wagon. car and driver tested the theory that explorers were prone to rolling over when the left rear tire blew out at speed. they bought a 91 explorer, and except for replacing shocks, that had long ago died, with stock replacement ones, and installing a roll cage to protect the driver, and rigging the left rear tire to deflate suddenly, the vehicle was as it came off the used car lot, and it was stock. they started the test at 30mph and went all the way to 70mph, and each time the explorer tracked perfectly each time, until the 70 mph test, when it wiggled a bit and required a minor steering correction. but never through out the test, did the explorer do anything to indicate a propensity to roll over.

how about you decide to study the real facts rather than just spout something you heard or read once or twice.

Ford could have chosen to build the car the SAFER way but chose instead to build it by the the method that killed more people. Period. And the weight factor..why didn't Toyota, Chevy, Nissan or VW have the same problem? Better design? Ya think?
And the Explorer....exactly WHY did Ford recommend 26 psi instead of the stated 32 psi that Firestone wanted? Could it have been the roll-over factor that was eliminated with the 6 psi reduction in tire pressure?

Here is what you guys need to understand...I DON'T CARE whose name is on the car! You people defend Ford for choosing to kill more people for a little more profit and I condem them for it.

When I was 13 years old in January 1963 and Ford placed 1,2,3,4,5 at Daytona, I discovered the 260 Cobra and then in 1965 Bondurant won GT title in the Daytona Coupe and The GT-40 MkII-b won the 66 LeMans 1-2-3 I was hooked. But then NONE of that racing experience made it's way to the street....well, maybe if you were Fred Lorenzen of Bud Moore you could get some of it. But you and I could not go to the Ford dealer and get any of it.

They built the BOSS cars and put a 780 cfm carb on the 302 and a 715 cfm on the 429!! WHAT sence did that make. There was a guy on the U.S.S. Orion in 1970 who had the 429 with the 8500 rpm NASCAR rotating assembly, 2 inline 4's, headers, cam and a slew of special stuff. He had the car for sale for less than 1/2 of what he had in it because a 427 Camaro stomped his ass on I-64 one night.

To Fords credit they did a magnificent job during the 1980's with the fuelie 302's. Took a page from the Chevy book of small-block support. Do I like the new Mustang? I think it is evil-wicked looking. I won't buy one. For the price of a 1 year old GT fully equipped I can buy a very good c-5 Vette. I want the most performance for the money I can get.....at this time, in a new car that is probably the GT Mustang. But I don't like the solid rar axle, the MacPherson strut front of the interior.

One more thing, back 'in-the-day' here is how the majority of Ford guys acted....1971, Charleston, SC...a Ford mechanic at Palmetto Ford had a 65/66 Mustang with a very strong 289 that ran low 13's and sometimes broke into the 12's. He stops at Randy's house one Sunday and wants to race Randy's 69 Nova. Randy gives the keys to his younger brother and says:
"Ken, go start it-up for the boy"
Ken starts the Nova and after it idles for about 60 seconds Ricky gets in his Mustang and slinks away. Why, you may ask? He was wanting to run a 289 aganist a 494 cid Dominator equipped 10.5 sec 1/4 mile car. WHY?????? Maybe because he believed all the hype that Ford put-out.

There was a Ford down there that was bad-ass and was owned by Bill Newton. 1956 T-bird...490+ cid tunnel-port, 2-4's. Ran like scaulded ****. Beat a BB Chevy built by Baldwin Chevrolet in New York. Beat him in the 1/4 and on top end....it had a Borg-Warner T-85 OD unit behind the top-loader. Now...was that cool or what?

Understand this....if Chevy screws-up with the Vega engine...I'll call them on it. If Oldsmobile does it with the diesel...I'll call them on it. If Fords KILLS people with the tank mounting design of a car...I'LL call them on it. If Ford kills people with the 26 psi recommendation in tire pressure, I'll call them on it...and I HATE Firestone!

It's people who are blind to the facts thaa allow the manufacturers to get away with murder....pun intended.

Ya'll have a good night.
 
I think he's also conviently forgotten that Chevy was NEVER competetive in Nascar back in the 60's to early 70's. Wasn't untill Ford and Mopar dropped their involvement in it that Chevy's started to dominate the scene, and that's not because of the superiority of the SBC. You can win any contest if you throw enough men, parts, engines etc into play. And as for his Explorer comment, he also forgot that when anyone drives an SUV at 100 mph and blows a tire, ANY SVU will be subject to a rollover. That's also true for any vehicle with tires that have sidewalls that're 6-8 inches tall. Blow the tire, vehicle "sinks" suddenly by a half a foot on one corner, that destabilizes any thing. at that speed. It takes an experienced driver to be able to control a vehicle in that situation. Not a Soccer Mom screaming at her kids when it happens.

Really? Go take a look at the race results. Except for the Wood Brother's and Dave Pearson the Fords didn't do much. But THAT was not the racers faule, Bud Moore and the Woods were diminished to combing the junk yards for 4-barrell parts and BOSS 351 blocks to go race. But you also need to remember that Fird was allowed to cut the ehaust ports and install an aluminum plate allowing the rainsing of the port. Yu do remember that don't you? You know, the infamous turned-down exhaust port that resticted the exhaust flow to the point that it was not competitive..

And didn't Ford throw more money ($7,00,000.00 in 1065/66 for LeMans), parts, men and drivers at winning races than anyone else?
 
Understand this....if Chevy screws-up with the Vega engine...I'll call them on it. If Oldsmobile does it with the diesel...I'll call them on it. If Fords KILLS people with the tank mounting design of a car...I'LL call them on it. If Ford kills people with the 26 psi recommendation in tire pressure, I'll call them on it...and I HATE Firestone!

It's people who are blind to the facts thaa allow the manufacturers to get away with murder....pun intended.
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You must have forgotten about the side-saddle gas tanks on the full-size pickups
 
i'm so sick of listening to this guy stroke himself i can't take it any more, he posts nothing meaningful at all and never, EVER, answers a direct question with a direct answer and worst of all he thinks he know's more than everyone on here combined.


hell me and ol' historic mustang have been in some pretty heated debates before but he and i can at least agree to disagree, mikey here can't even agree with himself, lock the thread....please