Project Outsourcing Tips and Lessons Learned

[68GT500KR_Vert]

I thought it might be helpful to start a thread on how not to get yourself ripped off when outsourcing work on your project (i.e. body, paint, motor, etc). It seems to me even if you get things in writing the lists are so vague that sometimes the company doing the work will change what was exactly agreed upon over the time the project starts to end.

My last build I was have a guy restoring my 68 Mustang coupe; we agreed to the price for the body work and I paid him in monthly installments; half way through he said it's not going to be enough and he needs twice as much (for which I could have bought a fully restored car for less). When I went to pick it up I found the work quality to be terrible and brought the car home after he agreed that the works wasn't right. Next thing I know he brought me to court for the rest of the money. The judge made made me pay almost as much in total for the original price of the project because he said my opinion didn't matter and I was not a car expert. The car was sold and I started over.

As a hobby/interest it seems really hard to find quality people to do your work and complete what they agree to. I went through 6 different people and 3 years just to get my engine rebuilt. I also think customer expectations and communications between the customer and builders are often problems. Especially when the builder gets insulted because you don't like the away they did something or they do somehting you did not agree too and they tell you they don't want to be micro-managed. Seems to me I am the customer and I'd like the car completed the way I want and it was agreed to. I'm in a customer service oriented business and it's always about keeping the customer happy.

Does anyone else have suggestions how to work better with builder / commpanies. Customers and Builders inputs would be great, I think it would be helpful for everyone. Let's try to keep this possitive and not mention names.

 

[lauras70mach1]

You should have known better than to get body/paintwork done for an agreed price. Most places can give a ballpark figure on what it's going to cost but it's always time+materials.

 

[JC6715]

If I've learned anything from THE PEOPLE'S COURT, it's "always get it in writing", very detailed writing with signatures and dates.

I know that seems pretty obvious, but you never know.

One thing that I've noticed is your attitude in dealing with you supplier can make or break the work being outsourced. You need to sound like you know what you are talking about, but not like a know it all. And walking that line, depending on what kind of work is being done, I've made drawings of how I'd like the work to look, specifically my exhaust system. I got exactly what I wanted for a great deal.

Use the Golden Rule, until they try to screw you, then get ugly.

Rambling done...

 

[68GT500KR_Vert]

Funny, these builders say different:
http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?p=310116

I started the thread in a couple places.

You should have known better than to get body/paintwork done for an agreed price. Most places can give a ballpark figure on what it's going to cost but it's always time+materials.

 

[lauras70mach1]

Funny, these builders say different:
http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?p=310116

I started the thread in a couple places.

Well the first guy basically said pay as you go and the other guy said get a hard number then went back and said it depended on what you wanted done.

Like I said, most places can give a ballpark figure but if you do business like that one guy said where you hope to come in within 10-20 percent or whatever that one guy said - you're going to lose a lot of money. What's 10 percent of $20K?

Anyway, you asked, I answered. Whatever.

 

[reenmachine]

I could write a ton on this, but here are a few examples of what I have in a contract as a builder.

(these examples apply to a full ground-up build, not smaller jobs)

First, and most importantly, I do not get paid entirely in advance. I typically ask for a decent chunk up front to cover acquisition of the donor car, transport, ordering long-lead parts, etc. The car is immediately titled to the new owner so they have something tangible for their money.

The balance is paid in "progress payments" associated with milestones agreed to in advance in our contract. Each progress payment invoice is only issued after the customer has been presented with ample documentation of the completed work (photos, video, personal visit, etc.). As you guys know I basically take a pic of every nut, bolt, and screw on the car. The pics I post here are probably 25% of what I actually take and that the customer sees.

The progress payments are structured such that the money is for the parts for the next phase and the labor completed in the previous phase. That way they're always getting something tangible for their money. If I keel over or they decide to stop the project or whatever they've got either parts in a pile or installed on their car to walk away with. Be wary of someone who wants to be paid for labor in advance -- you'll have nothing to show for your money.

To continue your example of your brakes, that milestone doesn't read "Install Brakes" but instead the following (brakes are in with suspension):

"This payment is due upon complete integration of the car’s suspension and braking systems as described in the build sheet. Essentially, the car will be a “roller” at this point with a working suspension and braking system."

I also have clauses in there covering early termination, what happens if I or they die, what happens if they're dissatisfied with me, what happens if I'm dissatisfied with them, what happens if they don't pay, etc.

My prices are pretty much fixed and agreed to in advance, but I do include a small contingency for things beyond my control. For example, over a year-long project there can be price increases on parts over what they were when we originally signed the contract. However, in order for me to charge the increase, I must provide evidence to the client and get everything in writing.

On a related note, I do pay a fixed, pre-agreed amount for paint & body. The type of shops I deal with are very experienced and can look at the bare shell I bring them and tell me exactly what it will cost to complete. I certainly don't pay up front though.

Hope this helps, and let me know if you have any other questions!

 

[68GT500KR_Vert]

Thanks Reen, How would you handle work that you've outsourced with another company and that work is completed in the wrong fashion and the company won't work with you to fix it?

 

[66 Restomod]

My suggestion would be to:

a.) buy an already restored car unless you must have the car done to your standards (very particular or a perfectionist), or that particular car has some sentimental value to you, or you will do all or most of the work yourself, or

b.) decide to have the car restored and KNOW it will cost twice as much as the estimate and take twice as long. Unless you are lucky, it won't be done EXACTLY how you'd do it either (because you are not the one doing it).

The only written contract I was ever offered for work was for a driver quality paint job with little prep and no rust repair. The $ were good, but the work wouldn't have lasted 2 years. That's probably why there was a contract.

 

[fasttback]

I think we have all been through this to some degree. I try to do everything myself, but most home mechanics don't have everything, so outsourcing does happen time to time. I usually use people that are highly recommended (word of mouth or from forums like this). Once I found a person/company that does quality work to my satisfaction, I don't mind paying more because it's usually cheaper in the long run.

As for "the customer is always right," seems to work better with big chain companies than with the smaller ones. In reality some of these guys just want to make a quick buck with minimal effort...and you pay the price. I can't recall how many times I cleaned up or rebuilt items after receiving them from the "experts." So, I do most of my work now.

+2 my rambling is done...

 

[reenmachine]

Thanks Reen, How would you handle work that you've outsourced with another company and that work is completed in the wrong fashion and the company won't work with you to fix it?

This is always a tough situation. If there's no contract in force outlining exactly what is to be delivered then you're pretty much SOL. Your recourse is through the legal system but A) there's no proof that they agreed to meet a particular standard in the first place and B) the lawyers will probably cost more than just eating it.

 

[68GT500KR_Vert]

ok, what about when you have a job completed and everything looks go to only have it go bad later? Again not all of us are experts. Warranties are not typical in the area of custom restorations.

 

[reenmachine]

ok, what about when you have a job completed and everything looks go to only have it go bad later? Again not all of us are experts. Warranties are not typical in the area of custom restorations.

You're right, and by that point it's typically too late unless you're really dealing with an upstanding shop.

Here's the big lesson in it all: you have to take your time and do your due diligence ahead of time. You need to get references and see other cars that the shop has done. You need to speak with other customers of theirs. If you're shopping purely on price you'll get what you pay for. The only way you can really protect yourself is by doing all of the legwork up front so you know you can trust the shop you finally decide to go with. If a shop is unwilling to furnish references that should tell you everything you need to know.

 

[JDS68Stang]

...........Does anyone else have suggestions how to work better with builder / commpanies. Customers and Builders inputs would be great, I think it would be helpful for everyone. Let's try to keep this possitive and not mention names.

Yea, two words, TAPE RECORDER
Once something is agreed on in full detail, say a paint job, tell the guy OK now lets say and agree to it all on tape so there is no confusion later down the road as to what is to be done and how. If they won't do it, walk away.

Years ago I had a guy paint my custom showbike Harley frame candy apple red after I spent a month molding in the tank on my free time (bikes gone now)

I show up to pick it up and see this flouresant orange frame there and said I hope that's NOT mine!

"Yea, I ran out of paint" he says. When I asked what these dark areas in the paint are he says "that's my signature skull I put in all my paint jobs" OK, I'm ready to deck this friggin idiot at this point then and there.
Made him start from scratch again and this time got it back done right, mostly on his dime minus the extra paint I bought.

Anymore it seems like not to many take pride in their work and could care less about having a good rep., in any business, not just the auto industry. The more measures you take to protect yourself the better.

A Judge will take a tape recording more seriously than "this one said this or that" and would prefer such evidence in a case before him/her. You don't generally need their permission to record them so long as YOU did the recording, a third party doing it, then you'll have legal issues.

 

[zookeeper]

I have a horror story about bodywork costs. First off, the painter told my wife the total cost for the whole thing, including Shelby fiberglass, bodywork and paint would be "around $1800", and would take "about six weeks". The total for everything, including body parts and paint, was over $5,000! The paint materials alone were about $2000! Not only that, but the painter took TWO FULL YEARS to complete the project! My wife was livid, to say the least, but eventually got over it, in fact now she's sleeping with the painter. Did I mention I did it myself?

 

[reenmachine]

I have a horror story about bodywork costs. First off, the painter told my wife the total cost for the whole thing, including Shelby fiberglass, bodywork and paint would be "around $1800", and would take "about six weeks". The total for everything, including body parts and paint, was over $5,000! The paint materials alone were about $2000! Not only that, but the painter took TWO FULL YEARS to complete the project! My wife was livid, to say the least, but eventually got over it, in fact now she's sleeping with the painter. Did I mention I did it myself?

Oh man that's funny

I was about to go off the hook about that dude and then when I read that he was banging your wife I about screamed. Way to hold the punchline back!!!!

 

[mrmustangman357]

I have a horror story about bodywork costs. First off, the painter told my wife the total cost for the whole thing, including Shelby fiberglass, bodywork and paint would be "around $1800", and would take "about six weeks". The total for everything, including body parts and paint, was over $5,000! The paint materials alone were about $2000! Not only that, but the painter took TWO FULL YEARS to complete the project! My wife was livid, to say the least, but eventually got over it, in fact now she's sleeping with the painter. Did I mention I did it myself?

You shoulda gotten a discount

 

[68RCodeConv]

I've had two Mustangs painted in the last 20 years. I doubt that I will ever have another one done.

Took me four years to get my Shelby painted. I put it in one shop (one with LOTS of references and I got to see his work) with $1500 up front. 6 months later it became obvious that nothing was going to happen and I went and got the car and ate the $1500. Then I put it into another shop. Paid top $$$ but the guy doing it just wasn't in any kind of hurry. Took him 3 years.

My 68 vert was in the body shop for 2.5 years. For the amount of body work done to it I think that I paid a reasonable price but that doesn't mean it was cheap.

IMO even if you do exhaustive research it just means that the previous clients didn't get screwed. That doesn't mean that you won't. And you just can't hurry these guys up. Even throwing money at them doesn't guarantee promptness.

That's just the way it is. IMO if you are in a big hurry then buy a car that is already done.