Hello to all, I new to the forum, hope everyone is having a great day . I am in dire need of the community's guidance and expertise on an issue I am having that has myself and the shop my car is currently at stumped .
My current engine set up
- Ford Racing
302 Block bored 0.30 over for a 347 stroker kit
-Scat 347 stroker kit
- Performance Automatic 28oz AOD Flexpalte, 164 Tooth, SFI approved
- SVE Aluminum heads
- BBK SSI intake
-70mm TB
-30# injectors
-76mm MAF
-B303 cam
-B&M 2200 Stall converter
- Heavy duty Rebuild kit with shift kit for AOD
-Wire Tuck w/Battery relocation in trunk ( Yes I did use welding wire for the battery power cables )
Backstory-
I've built a new engine for my 1991 Ford Mustang LX. Everything engine wise is brand new down to ARP bolts for pretty much everything. The issue I am having is the starter is grinding when attempting to start the car. It all started off with a newer style PMGR starter found on 92' and up fox body mustangs that I rebuilt that came from a donor 93 GT fox with and AOD. That starter worked flawless without issues till the solenoid went out and gave the infamous "Click" on the relay when attempting to crank. I had and extra auto parts store PMGR starter I had laying around for another fox that needed the starter replaced which I used installed on my car instead. With the new Auto Parts store starter everything was great for about a day or so unit the engine killed the starter's gears internally. The starter would engage but once it touched the flex plate it would just grind the gears on the starter internally. That may have been because of my compression ration on the current engine build not sure. Took it back and had it replaced under warranty. Now things get interesting with 2nd Auto Parts store starter, also worked for a day and then started having an awful clanking/ grinding sound when turning the car over as if it was skipping teeth till eventually it just stopped engaging the flex plate ring gears. Thought maybe It was just a defective unit, took that one back in and had it swapped out for another. Now on to the third starter from the auto parts store, also worked for about less than a day and started the same grinding/ clanking sound. Pulled the starter, checked teeth on the flex plate and they looked worn in some areas and not in others. Thought maybe I've ran into bad luck with auto part's store starters and ordered a PA Performance starter, put that sucker in and it also worked for a couple starts and after started the same symptoms as the previous two starters. I was pretty sure my flex plate ring gears were shot from all the starter issue and sure enough after rotating the engine by hand it would engage in certain spots but not others. At this point I was looking at replacing the flex plate, didn't have the equipment or expertise to do it on my own in the garage, so I sent the car off to a shop that works on nothing but mustangs hoping they would be able to resolve this starter issue with a new flex plate . So far after a new replacement 164 tooth SFI flex plate from American muscle that the shop put on, trying with both my old original PMGR starter that I got off another AOD fox and the PA Performance the shop mentioned that the car will start fine on the first start but then on the second or third start it will try to grind and eventually you just hear the starter engaging but not turning the motor over. The mechanic stated the depth of engage meant from the starter to flex plate is good, just the mesh of the flex plate ring gear teeth and the starter pinion aren't deep enough so much that it looks like just the tips are touching. They didn't want to cause anymore damage to the new flex plate so they recommended I try and find a different starter online. I purchased a new B&M 77100 starter that said in the description that it would work fitment wise but the shop attempted to put it in with no success, said that it didn't fit something about clearance issues. Will be calling tomorrow to speak to the actually mechanic about that because the unit is re-clockable. * Also the measurement from the block plate to the beginning of the flex plate is 3/4"
Now Ive been researching out the wazoo about this issue and keep coming up with people with an similar issue usually with a swap. Transmission wise nothing has changed, same AOD, same block plate, just new engine block, new flex plate 28oz because of stroker kit requirements (same tooth count as stock 164) and a stroker kit with the PMGR starter which from what I've read is a direct replacement of the old style starter. Before all this the car ran perfectly and was actually my daily driver.
Couple questions-
- If starter gear mesh between the starter pinion and the ring gear is the problem what can be done to resolve that
- Is there a difference on off-set on the start pinion on the PMGR starer and the old style starter
- Do I continue with the shop I have it at now or bring the car home for now
At this point I'm at a loss here, not sure what else to do, the shop I have it pretty much saying they never encounter an issue like this don't have a solution on what to do next. Only thing they haven't tried is putting the old style starter back in the car and seeing if that works but the bill from just R&R of the transmission and labor hours for the starter issue is already high. Any help is appreciated and any more info that is needed I can do my best to provide it
.
My current engine set up
- Ford Racing
-Scat 347 stroker kit
- Performance Automatic 28oz AOD Flexpalte, 164 Tooth, SFI approved
- SVE Aluminum heads
- BBK SSI intake
-70mm TB
-30# injectors
-76mm MAF
-B303 cam
-B&M 2200 Stall converter
- Heavy duty Rebuild kit with shift kit for AOD
-Wire Tuck w/Battery relocation in trunk ( Yes I did use welding wire for the battery power cables )
Backstory-
I've built a new engine for my 1991 Ford Mustang LX. Everything engine wise is brand new down to ARP bolts for pretty much everything. The issue I am having is the starter is grinding when attempting to start the car. It all started off with a newer style PMGR starter found on 92' and up fox body mustangs that I rebuilt that came from a donor 93 GT fox with and AOD. That starter worked flawless without issues till the solenoid went out and gave the infamous "Click" on the relay when attempting to crank. I had and extra auto parts store PMGR starter I had laying around for another fox that needed the starter replaced which I used installed on my car instead. With the new Auto Parts store starter everything was great for about a day or so unit the engine killed the starter's gears internally. The starter would engage but once it touched the flex plate it would just grind the gears on the starter internally. That may have been because of my compression ration on the current engine build not sure. Took it back and had it replaced under warranty. Now things get interesting with 2nd Auto Parts store starter, also worked for a day and then started having an awful clanking/ grinding sound when turning the car over as if it was skipping teeth till eventually it just stopped engaging the flex plate ring gears. Thought maybe It was just a defective unit, took that one back in and had it swapped out for another. Now on to the third starter from the auto parts store, also worked for about less than a day and started the same grinding/ clanking sound. Pulled the starter, checked teeth on the flex plate and they looked worn in some areas and not in others. Thought maybe I've ran into bad luck with auto part's store starters and ordered a PA Performance starter, put that sucker in and it also worked for a couple starts and after started the same symptoms as the previous two starters. I was pretty sure my flex plate ring gears were shot from all the starter issue and sure enough after rotating the engine by hand it would engage in certain spots but not others. At this point I was looking at replacing the flex plate, didn't have the equipment or expertise to do it on my own in the garage, so I sent the car off to a shop that works on nothing but mustangs hoping they would be able to resolve this starter issue with a new flex plate . So far after a new replacement 164 tooth SFI flex plate from American muscle that the shop put on, trying with both my old original PMGR starter that I got off another AOD fox and the PA Performance the shop mentioned that the car will start fine on the first start but then on the second or third start it will try to grind and eventually you just hear the starter engaging but not turning the motor over. The mechanic stated the depth of engage meant from the starter to flex plate is good, just the mesh of the flex plate ring gear teeth and the starter pinion aren't deep enough so much that it looks like just the tips are touching. They didn't want to cause anymore damage to the new flex plate so they recommended I try and find a different starter online. I purchased a new B&M 77100 starter that said in the description that it would work fitment wise but the shop attempted to put it in with no success, said that it didn't fit something about clearance issues. Will be calling tomorrow to speak to the actually mechanic about that because the unit is re-clockable. * Also the measurement from the block plate to the beginning of the flex plate is 3/4"
Now Ive been researching out the wazoo about this issue and keep coming up with people with an similar issue usually with a swap. Transmission wise nothing has changed, same AOD, same block plate, just new engine block, new flex plate 28oz because of stroker kit requirements (same tooth count as stock 164) and a stroker kit with the PMGR starter which from what I've read is a direct replacement of the old style starter. Before all this the car ran perfectly and was actually my daily driver.
Couple questions-
- If starter gear mesh between the starter pinion and the ring gear is the problem what can be done to resolve that
- Is there a difference on off-set on the start pinion on the PMGR starer and the old style starter
- Do I continue with the shop I have it at now or bring the car home for now
At this point I'm at a loss here, not sure what else to do, the shop I have it pretty much saying they never encounter an issue like this don't have a solution on what to do next. Only thing they haven't tried is putting the old style starter back in the car and seeing if that works but the bill from just R&R of the transmission and labor hours for the starter issue is already high. Any help is appreciated and any more info that is needed I can do my best to provide it
.