Rebuild or Crate Motor?

[TrueMach1]

Heya guys, new to site, gonna have many questions. Cant figure out how to post pics so if someone can post them from my garage that would be awesome.

Short bio: 25 year old male, I just graduated from Police Academy this past August. My grandfather owns a paint and body shop, and has since the 1960's. As a kid I would go up there and help sand cars and stuff but really never got into mechanics. Around the mid 90's I really started liking Mustangs and it just so happened that he had a 1973 Mach 1 in the back yard, over the years I would beg him to let me work on it but I was a kid and he didnt have the time. Now, after all this time, he broke down and handed me the title. I found the original paperwork, and checked all the numbers to make sure they match. They do. 1973 Mustang Mach 1 H Code 351C 2v 4bbl. I am starting to compile a list of things I need to start tearing down and things I am going to replace. This resto I am planing to spread it out over the next year and a half, so in Spring 2011 it will be on the street. I do not neccesarily wont to go 100% stock, but I do want it to look and sound like Classic Muscle. I am not concerned about gas mileage and things like radio and AC and such. I am primarily concerned with making it...well bad ass really. I am aiming for 400+ horses but street legal. Now...the engine. It is in parts, he started to put it back together a long time ago and time slipped away. Should I restore this Cleveland, punch it .030, add CompCam 10.5:1 cams, etc etc. Or get a nice crate motor? I would like the car to keep up with my buddies (Cobra's, SS's, Sti's etc etc), and am willing to spend about $8,000-10,000 to do so. Any suggestions on engine/transmission possibilities? Again, I am not mechanicly inclined so I have a shop that is willing to do the drivetrain work. My grandfather and I are doing the body/frame work. I guess this is my "new guy" intro as well. Some really nice cars here.


PS: I went to Skip Barber Racing School, so please, no "you cant handle 400+hp" crap guys

 

[NasaGT]

Welcome to the board and congrats on your Mustang!

I say rebuild what ya got. But thats me. Best of luck!

 

[2+2GT]

Should I restore this Cleveland, punch it .030, add CompCam 10.5:1 cams, etc etc. Or get a nice crate motor? I would like the car to keep up with my buddies (Cobra's, SS's, Sti's etc etc), and am willing to spend about $8,000-10,000 to do so. Any suggestions on engine/transmission possibilities?

Well, for a little over 9 grand, you could get this 580 horsepower Ford Racing engine. Since the 71-73 Mustang was designed around the Ford 385 series engine, it would pretty much bolt in. Of course, you're going to need a tougher transmission, and your 28 spline rear axle will need a lotta work to take the power.

I say this because you can get a nice, crisp engine out of modifying the 351 2V you have, but it's not gonna keep up with a late-model Cobra.

 

[woodsnake]

Well, it's a tough call. A lot of shops will tell you one thing up front, and at the end of the day they are 100 % over budget.
But for that kind of money, you can build a killer engine. If you aren't too concerned about highway miles, then plan a 3:50 or taller rear end gear. That will make your boat a lot quicker.
Faster? You will need to start planning for an overdrive transmission, AOD or T5.And if you are talking about 400+ to the rear tires, then you will need an upgraded transmission, either way you go.
Ford strokers dot com has a nice list of "C" stroker kits, and they sell short blocks as well. That may be your best bet.
It's certainly worth looking into.

http://**********************/ford-...tating-assemblies/351-cleveland-stroker-kits/

OK, so you will have to look at the web page on your own, stang net doesn't like Ford strokers dot com, or s b f tech dot com either...

 

[rbohm]

i disagree with 2+2, you can build a 351c that will run with or out run modern cobras. you do have to build it right though. edelbrock has a set of aluminum heads for the 351c, they are closed chambered heads like the early 4v heads, but have the smaller 2v ports for better low rpm response. use a cam like the xe268h either in a flat tappet or roller version, a performer rpm air gap intake and a 750 edelbrock carb, and a set of 1 5/8" tube headers, and that motor should be making better than 400hp depending on your tuning skills. if you want a manual trans, step up to the richmond rod 6 speed. it is a tough trans that you can pick your first gear and over drive ratios. use something like a 3.0 first gear, and .70 overdrive, and something like 4.11 gears out back. your 73 is not as heavy as the later model stangs, and this combination will let you run with the pack.

 

[2+2GT]

Yeah, a nice crisp, even snappy 351C. And I love the old Mustangs, even the "big" 71-3.

But faster than this?

 

[hipo_p51]

i disagree with 2+2, you can build a 351c that will run with or out run modern cobras. you do have to build it right though. edelbrock has a set of aluminum heads for the 351c, they are closed chambered heads like the early 4v heads, but have the smaller 2v ports for better low rpm response. use a cam like the xe268h either in a flat tappet or roller version, a performer rpm air gap intake and a 750 edelbrock carb, and a set of 1 5/8" tube headers, and that motor should be making better than 400hp depending on your tuning skills. if you want a manual trans, step up to the richmond rod 6 speed. it is a tough trans that you can pick your first gear and over drive ratios. use something like a 3.0 first gear, and .70 overdrive, and something like 4.11 gears out back. your 73 is not as heavy as the later model stangs, and this combination will let you run with the pack.

Of course i have way to much money into my car, but i frequently outrun supercharged and the like cobras. the more you spend, the faster you go.

 

[TrueMach1]

Awesome responses. Alright what about putting in a 4v from the Q Code? Ive seen lots of guys doing this but is it neccessary? Also, whats the biggest bore i can go without changing internals...I am hearing .040 because the C's have thin walls...any suggestions? Oh! Also I have located and purchased a doner car! $550 bought me a '71 coupe with a running 351C, no trans, no wheels, no seats. However it has good metal, engine, and dash kit. I looks like I am going to rebuild and beef up the C. Whats a good size carb to slap on? I have a Holley 750 that was pulled off a 460cid, is that too big? Also should I be concerned about a stall converter if I am going with a mild cam? Thanks guys!

 

[woodsnake]

Before you spend any more money, you need to really, rally think this out.
A 4.11 gear rear end will really pick up the bottom end, but will also wind you out on the top end. If it was only a drag car, that's no problem. If you want to play on the interstate, with a 4.11 60 mph will cost you ~3K rpms.

So, what OD transmission are you planning?
My understanding is that "C" blocks are known for having shifting bores, so no more than a .030 overbore.

You will need to spend some money on the valve train. Look at the cost of rebuilding stock cast iron heads, VS ANY aftermarket heads, cast or aluminum.
Also, go over to S B F Tech dot com, and read up over there. Those guys live for going fast, or going faster.

 

[2+2GT]

Awesome responses. Alright what about putting in a 4v from the Q Code? Ive seen lots of guys doing this but is it neccessary? Also, whats the biggest bore i can go without changing internals...I am hearing .040 because the C's have thin walls...any suggestions? Oh! Also I have located and purchased a donor car! $550 bought me a '71 coupe with a running 351C, no trans, no wheels, no seats. However it has good metal, engine, and dash kit. I looks like I am going to rebuild and beef up the C. Whats a good size carb to slap on? I have a Holley 750 that was pulled off a 460cid, is that too big? Also should I be concerned about a stall converter if I am going with a mild cam? Thanks guys!

Q code? You mean the intake or the whole engine?

The Stock 4V manifold won't work on a 2V engine, of course.

I wouldn't go more than 0.030, but some have got away with 0.040.

A 750 is biggish, but with a 351C 4V, with the big valves can handle it.

 

[TrueMach1]

Q code? You mean the intake or the whole engine?

The Stock 4V manifold won't work on a 2V engine, of course.

I wouldn't go more than 0.030, but some have got away with 0.040.

A 750 is biggish, but with a 351C 4V, with the big valves can handle it.

I meant the whole engine, but after looking at prices I am not going that direction. Also, if 750 is too big for a 2v than what is a good size for what I am doing? 600? I dont know much about carbs so can someone tell me if I need something like a double pump high rise? My father and I have messed with side draft carbs on MGB's and TR6's but nothing V8.

 

[TrueMach1]

Before you spend any more money, you need to really, rally think this out.
A 4.11 gear rear end will really pick up the bottom end, but will also wind you out on the top end. If it was only a drag car, that's no problem. If you want to play on the interstate, with a 4.11 60 mph will cost you ~3K rpms.

So, what OD transmission are you planning?
My understanding is that "C" blocks are known for having shifting bores, so no more than a .030 overbore.

You will need to spend some money on the valve train. Look at the cost of rebuilding stock cast iron heads, VS ANY aftermarket heads, cast or aluminum.
Also, go over to S B F Tech dot com, and read up over there. Those guys live for going fast, or going faster.

I won't see much Interstate travel. From what I am reading T5 seems to be the way to go. Maybe not 4.11, and I have a 9" rear if that makes a difference.

Also, the brakes on the car are discs in front drums in back. Do I need to put discs in back as well to help stop this thing? Or am I ok with just front. I think the fronts are from a Mercury.

 

[70vert]

Quick note - if you do put in discs in the rear, do a drum/disc Explorer/Crown Vic type. That way, you have the disc power and the drum parking brake. I went with the Wilwood version of this setup, but there's no need for that with the front brakes you've got there.

 

[TrueMach1]

Thanks for the reply 70Vert, nice stang man. Anyways what about cooling guys? Theres no radiator in either car. Should I go electric fan? What size? Is 180-190 a good temp to be at? As of now the car DOESNT have AC, and I dont think I can fit one after Im done, so dont figure that in.

 

[rbohm]

I meant the whole engine, but after looking at prices I am not going that direction. Also, if 750 is too big for a 2v than what is a good size for what I am doing? 600? I dont know much about carbs so can someone tell me if I need something like a double pump high rise? My father and I have messed with side draft carbs on MGB's and TR6's but nothing V8.

for a 351c, especially a modified one, 750cfm is not too much carb. in fact for most builds it is about right. for the street i dont recommend a double pumper carb, they do help with initial acceleration at the track, but just waste fuel on the street. if you go with a holley carb use a vacuum secondary carb. the edlebrock carb uses an air valve secondary system must like the rochester Qjet which i feel is the better way to go.

I won't see much Interstate travel. From what I am reading T5 seems to be the way to go. Maybe not 4.11, and I have a 9" rear if that makes a difference.

the T5 wont hold up to a healthy 351c, and the tremec 3550 or tko are rather large and even with the larger body may have a bit of a time fitting your mustang which is why i suggested the richmond rod six speed. it has an od that you can choose, as well as a first gear ratio you can choose. it is slightly larger than the T5 but smaller than the tko, and it is a tough transmission. it will handle all the power a modified 351c can put out, and then some. if you use a 4.11 rear gear with a .70 od ratio, you get a nice freeway cruising rpm, and with a 2.95 first gear you get all the dig off the line you need for the heavier body. if you dont want to spend the extra money for the 6 speed, richmond also has the 4+1 five speed. no overdrive, but you can still pick your first gear ratio. use the 3.97 first gear with a 3.00 or 3.25 final drive and you get similar off the line performance as you would with the 4.11 gears, but you still get a decent final drive for cruising.

Also, the brakes on the car are discs in front drums in back. Do I need to put discs in back as well to help stop this thing? Or am I ok with just front. I think the fronts are from a Mercury.

a disc/drum combination is fine, but if you want rear disc brakes i also recommend using the rear discs from a crown vic.

Thanks for the reply 70Vert, nice stang man. Anyways what about cooling guys? Theres no radiator in either car. Should I go electric fan? What size? Is 180-190 a good temp to be at? As of now the car DOESNT have AC, and I dont think I can fit one after Im done, so dont figure that in.

i would use a 3 row copper/brass or a an aluminum radiator with two rows 1.25" wide each. as for a fan, the electric fan from a ford taurus is a good one to use. i would use a 180 thermostat, but use a fan trigger that would turn the fan on at 200 degrees and off at around 175 degrees.

as for a/c, you can fit it into the car with no issues if you want. check out the offerings from vintage air.

 

[TrueMach1]

Which year/model taurus?

 

[rbohm]

any of them with the 3.8 V6 or any taurus 97 or later will work fine.

 

[68RCodeConv]

You need to step back. You are going a million miles an hour in all different directions. It is VERY easy to start throwing big money at a car and end up with an expensive non-running project. Everybody says they want 400 or 500 horsepower but don't know (1) how to get there, or (2) how to get it to the ground, or (3) what the drivability of the car will be.

Decide on the engine/tranny and then start asking more specific questions. Personally I think the stroked 351C idea with aluminum heads is a good start. If you decide to go that way lots of people can give you specs on a complete combo that will be within your budget and make plenty of power.

 

[TrueMach1]

Sorry guys Ive been outa town for 2 weeks. So an update.......

The Mach has been taken out of the weather and put in a garage, body panels, hood, and trunk lid are off and are going to the blasting booth next week to be sandblasted and what not. The engine and transmission are being pulled on Teusday, then everything will be put on hold because I have to travel for work again. In mid-November the engine rebuild should get underway, in January the tranmission and rear will be rebuilt. The frame will be straightened/sanded/welded or whatever it neeeds in January as well. I'm going with Cobra Charcoal Grey with black Mach 1 stripes and decals (or visa versa). Wheels I havnt decided on. For christmas my girlfriend is buying me a dashpad, and my father is getting the leather interior re-upholstered. By March/April the drivetrain should be back in the car, and I will be working on finishing bodywork and getting the thing painted. I am aiming to have it ready for the road in April/May hopefully. But theres always a wrench in the plans so, we shall see. Worst case scenario the engine and trans. needs a complete rebuild and take another $4k and 2 weeks. So far I havnt spent any money on the car, havnt ordered any parts, and I have a place to store the donar Stang too (was on a trailer in my backyard ). On a side note my father has started a semi restore on a 1974 TVR 2500 M, beautiful car that he purchased for $2000. All it needs is a paint job and some engine tlc. My grandfather is doing all my bodywork and paint, but he is backed up with work (hence the April/May target), he has in the paint booth now a 1997 Ferrari Maranello that got broken into and taken for a joyride. Anyways I will keep you guys posted. Thanks!