Alright gang, built Dart or Coyote?

[FastDriver]

Man, I'll give you this, you've got me looking at what's out there. These guys are just 2 hrs from my house:

680 HP E85 8k RPM 363 (both carbd & FI):


I'm tempted to have them build me a backup motor. They are $proud$ of their work, though.

 

[AeroCoupe]

Typically a packaged up Coyote with transmission of choice a pallet and running from a place like The Parts Farm (https://thepartsfarm.com/collection...hp-5-0-gen-3-engine-10r80-auto-trans-swap-kit) start at $12K.

You will need an option for power steering which you can get a Volvo unit, AN hose adapters, and controller for around $250 if you shop it.

If the owner wants the factor gauges to work there is that cost as well due to the Coyote ECU harness not being plug and play into the dash harness. Cost here depends on the owner’s ability to integrate of if this has to be farmed out. With the higher rom range of the Coyote an aftermarket tach might be an adder as well but I’d want (and have that) that with a modded Windsor motor.

I’m going to leave out the radiator, fan, k-member, trans crossmember, headers, exhaust, etc as those costs would also occur with a Windsor if a person was starting with a roller. I think the fuel system would also be a wash as about the only difference is the Coyote needing a little more fuel pressure (55-60 psi).

I think the hardest things to guestimate is if a person cannot self install how much a shop will do it for.

Anyhow, just some rough numbers and a rough idea of installation needed.

I’m definitely in the Windsor camp as that’s what I have and going the other way would be way too much money for the little to no gain in performance over the current 331.

Also, when we start talking power adders the Coyotes are just more responsive to them due to the head design. There is an old Falcon that is making somewhere around 2000 hp and just destroying some guys that are heavy hitters. I will say it’s no sock Coyote.

 

[FastDriver]

So, that's very useful, and it's frankly better than I expected. At that price, it really is worth the initial consideration.

Yeah, I'll grant the fuel system, though I dunno. I guess if you're already sitting there with a 255 - 340 LPH and 42+ lbs injectors and you're only building a 500 rwhp car, then you'd already have some sunk costs towards the pushrod. But, if you'relike me and you're moving to make big power, you have to address everything. Also, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't need a k-member, though I'd definitely be upgrading that kind of stuff, and did in my build.

Anyways, that's pretty good perspective. Any idea what they'd want if you already had the used motor? It's still not clear to me. Are they $3k used motors with $9k in accessories?

 

[Monkeybutt2000]

This is why I like this site,lot's of good info and opinions. So,the good thing about my car,is I already have all the upgrades. Full fuel system,built rearend,TKO 600,all the good parts are there. A new Dart is literally just a drop in.. I should emphasize one thing,this is a STREET car, 6-6500rpm max. The Coyote would be cool,as nobody in my area has one,but it's so much extra work. In the meantime,I'll get my 331 back together and enjoy the heck outta' it this year.

 

[AeroCoupe]

From what I have seen you cannot drop a Coyote into a Fox with the stock K-member as there is all kinds of interference.

 

[TOOLOW91]

This is why I like this site,lot's of good info and opinions. So,the good thing about my car,is I already have all the upgrades. Full fuel system,built rearend,TKO 600,all the good parts are there. A new Dart is literally just a drop in.. I should emphasize one thing,this is a STREET car, 6-6500rpm max. The Coyote would be cool,as nobody in my area has one,but it's so much extra work. In the meantime,I'll get my 331 back together and enjoy the heck outta' it this year.

6-6500 on a 363 is going to whizz by like “ HEY where did that go “ and you’ll be pushing the 7-7200 as your rowing gears .

it will still be Maintenance free with a good HYD roller and good lifters .

I just did a Holley efi swap on an 85 with a hyd roller NA 408 not too long ago and man was that car a blast to drive . Holy moly did it rpm very quickly

 

[FastDriver]

From what I have seen you cannot drop a Coyote into a Fox with the stock K-member as there is all kinds of interference.

Right, right, right... I'm sorry. He said something like needing a k-member for a Windsor, so it's a wash. If by Windsor, he means 351 block, then I guess so... never done one. But, there's no need for that with a 363.

 

[AeroCoupe]

Hope I read your post correct but I’m pretty sure a 351W will drop into a stock k-member but it’s gonna be tight tight. I’ve got a 351W in the Bird but it’s got a Griggs k-member in it so I have no direct experience but there are a lot of threads in them being put into our cars with little to no mods.

 

[FastDriver]

I’m going to leave out the radiator, fan, k-member, trans crossmember, headers, exhaust, etc as those costs would also occur with a Windsor if a person was starting with a roller.

Ok. Well, here, man. This is what I was responding to. Why would those costs occur with a Windsor? You're saying the roller doesn't already have at least the stock K-member? Seems like a cost that only the coyote would have. OP definitely already has a k-member with, I believe, a 347 sitting on top if it, currently.

 

[AeroCoupe]

Ahhhh, okay man got you now. I was doing a cost comparison like it was a choice of motors and we were looking at starting with a roller so yeah stock k-member and at best an 8.8 rear.

Honestly anyone putting a 351W based motor in a Fox should put a tubular k-member in the car as it just makes it easier to maintain but I’m not telling you anything.

 

[Noobz347]

Ahhhh, okay man got you now. I was doing a cost comparison like it was a choice of motors and we were looking at starting with a roller so yeah stock k-member and at best an 8.8 rear.

Honestly anyone putting a 351W based motor in a Fox should put a tubular k-member in the car as it just makes it easier to maintain but I’m not telling you anything.

Which K-Member tho? Most are not built to the task every day road use?

 

[AeroCoupe]

Put a Maximum Motorsports in my Coupe 15 years ago and it’s still 100%. The Griggs went in the T-Bird around a year later but it doesn’t have the miles on it the Mustang does.

From what I understand most k-members are street friendly now. If you buy drag race suspension it will most likely be lighter in construction than road race gear so keep that in mind.

 

[TOOLOW91]

Which K-Member tho? Most are not built to the task every day road use?

Any of them . The early and mid 2000s k members are a thing of the past.

UPR moly k member has been in my car like 5 years. NYC/ NJ roads . No issues

 

[bird_dog0347]

Can anyone here give us the actual fair transplant costs? Accessories, computer, wiring harness, engine bay fabrication, etc...? Christ, I'm starting to think you'd have a 363 shortblock paid for before you even put a deposit down on the Coyote. I just kinda figured we were talking about used Coyote from the marketplace, because that's the one that's Dart 363 money after the extra expenses.

Ummmm... me. I had a built top end 5.0 that I could have said just do a 363 short block and then we upgrade the trans and go. Instead we are building a forged bottom end for my 4.6 DOCH that already has a Vortech on it. To do that I had to trade my MM K member for a MM Swap K member, I had to sell off the old engine/trans/computer/exhaust/etc. and buy those things new.

Sure I *could* have dropped the engine and trans into my car as is, with the dyno sheet of 450 RWHP already there but I know that the limit of the stock rods on the 4.6's is around 500hp and since I'm already going full send on everything might as well do the bottom end too. While I'm in there let's not forget about the timing components, the OPG's, and other items that will make it more durable. All said, worst case, the rebuild costs me about $8-9k.... but I won't have to pull it back out later. I'll have to buy a holley to run it all still as well as some headers/x pipe.

Yes, I likely could have saved money going with the 363 which was my original plan, but just like you, I know what I want my car to be and how I want to get there. Yes the 4.6 isn't the same as a Coyote, but it SOUNDS WAY BETTER than the Coyote and once properly bullet proofed (just like a 5.0) can make big power. Plus the sound of the blower on there is music to my ears.

For me I'm having K and K build what I thought Ford should have made as the very best Fox ever created. Literally the best pieces of each generation, including the engine. So yeah, I know ALL about the costs to convert this , and I know it's not for everyone... but knowing all I know at this point it would have been cheaper and easier to just throw a Coyote in there and put a blower on it later and call it a day.

 

[FastDriver]

Love it! Sounds like an awesome build!

 

[90sickfox]

I don't know about yall but I'm kinda tired of seeing coyotes in foxes. They are all the same. Painted or unpainted valve covers. Stock or cold air intake. Supercharged or NA. They all look the same and cookie cutter. I like seeing push rod V8s that hand coyote a hand full of whip a$s. A good 363, 393, 406, or 427 holds their own. It's been forever since I've seen a 460 build in a fox on the street. The 7.3 would peak my interest. I know 3 people right now that are doing pickup truck coyote swaps. It gets expensive real quick.

 

[2000xp8]

Much of this entire debate is subjective.
For me it's about how the car will be driven.
If you aren't going to the track and we are talking 400rwhp+, personally i don't see what a few horsepower here or there do for you. I'll take average over max these days.
You also can't be surprised when you use race car parts to make the power and the car drives like a race car on the street. I'm sure that's fine with some people, but i'm long past that (and there was a time when that was me).
I'm also not into screwing with things i consider "done", engine wise i haven't touched a thing is like 10 to 15 years. There is nothing to mess with, nor do i want to, it's allowed me to concentrate on other issues that have been on my nerves for a long time.

Not sure either where all you guys that don't goto the track are racing people. From what i see, most of it is just bench racing or watching it on youtube and in that case, nobody really wins.

I'm kinda good with any ford engine in a ford. So as long it's not an LS (which i'm fine with in GM vehicles), i think people should do and build whatever it is makes them happy and suits their driving style or goals.

No matter how you slice it, it's expensive and i believe both the 363 and the coyote have merit in their own ways.

 

[Noobz347]

With today's tuning options, you can make a well built engine dance in pretty much any manner you wish.

 

[TOOLOW91]

With today's tuning options, you can make a well built engine dance in pretty much any manner you wish.

Precisely . To an extent . If you build the engine within the purpose to have the mannerisms of a driver absolutely .

I drove my car to work for a week straight when it first got cold out . 20s in the mornings - 60 plus miles round trip .

 

[93gtmustang]

I've had this crate motor on my wish list for drag racing for quite a while. It says, This product is intended for off-road use only, and is not legal for use in emission restrictive states. And,

• We recommend breaking this crate engine in properly. Late Model Restoration will not be held accountable for any damages that may occur due to improper break-in methods. Normal break in conditions consist of 500 miles at normal operating conditions.

So how do you break in an off road motor for 500 miles at normal operating conditions when its only making 1/4 mile passes LOL!!!!

https://lmr.com/item/M6007Z2363RT/ford-performance-363-boss-crate-engine-m6007-z2363rt