'05 GT Handling

M1Rifle · Dec 1, 2004

Let me clarify: There are awesome handling cars that don't have the roadholding of other cars. I'm not going to lecture everyone here. Go do some research, and stop confusing sheer roadholding (grip at the limits) with handling (objective and subjective characterizations about the quality of the DYNAMICS of handling, not the static limits of adhesion).

It's like the difference between design and styling, which people confuse on this board daily as well. They aren't the same thing.

beary58 · Dec 1, 2004

Rootus said:
Such a pointless discussion.

I don't agree. When I go to the dealership and the salesman quickly realizes I know enough about the car that he starts asking me questions, I can only credit discussions like this. I wanted to know the differences between the two cars and now I know a little more. If the discussion is something I'm not interested in reading, I just move on.

2000 white vert

Fast GTO · Dec 1, 2004

05 GT's are better than any car.

FastRedPonyCar · Dec 1, 2004

If you cut the springs, the 05's will out-handle most Ferraris....but that's just heresay.

fivepointNO · Dec 1, 2004

Fast GTO said:
05 GT's are better than any car.

Trying to get in the middle of a pissing match? It's not very intelligent to make rude comments simply to instigate others. It won't be long and someone will be poking that it handles better than your car... That's bound to get yer "goat!"

max2000jp · Dec 1, 2004

M1Rifle said:
Let me clarify: There are awesome handling cars that don't have the roadholding of other cars. I'm not going to lecture everyone here. Go do some research, and stop confusing sheer roadholding (grip at the limits) with handling (objective and subjective characterizations about the quality of the DYNAMICS of handling, not the static limits of adhesion).

It's like the difference between design and styling, which people confuse on this board daily as well. They aren't the same thing.

You need sticky tires in order to go fast. Sticky tires on a average suspension will pull fairly decent skidpad numbers. The higher the skipad number, the better. As for testing the suspension, slalom times are a good indicator. A higher slalom number usually equals a good handling car.

Mustang5L5 · Dec 1, 2004

svtguy said:
Drive a SVT Focus around one exit ramp 15 mile faster than you should & you will automatically know that they handle better than any stock mustang. (excluding the 00R & 05 GT as I haven't drove them)

First off i have driven an SVT focus and they do handle better than Mustangs.

But read what i said again

"Driving it down the road and saying one feels better than the other going through a couple turns is pointless."

Take an SVT FOcus and a '96 Cobra out to sears point and race them? WHich one wins? I'm sure the focus will hold it's own, but my money is on the Cobra.

Just cuz the car can take a turn well doesn't mean it's balanced enough to dominate on a road course...which is what this thread was aimed at i beleive.

sveet · Dec 1, 2004

beary58 said:
I don't agree. When I go to the dealership and the salesman quickly realizes I know enough about the car that he starts asking me questions, I can only credit discussions like this. I wanted to know the differences between the two cars and now I know a little more. If the discussion is something I'm not interested in reading, I just move on.

2000 white vert

I agree. Why have forums if we don't discuss topics like this?

What should we talk about, who has the best Christmas tree???

sveet · Dec 1, 2004

I simply started this thread to see if others feel that the reviews are maybe overstating the handling aspects of the '05.

I simply find it unlikely that the new Stang, with 55 series all season rubber, a strut suspension, and solid read axle can be such a dominent player in the handling department.

Based on the comments here, and in magazines, the bar has been set pretty high for SVT. They are going to need to break new handling records for the next gen. Cobra to even be an improvement on the GT.

duner · Dec 1, 2004

sveet said:
What should we talk about, who has the best Christmas tree???

My '03 Christmas tree is way better than all '05 Christmas trees.

fivepointNO · Dec 1, 2004

sveet said:
I simply started this thread to see if others feel that the reviews are maybe overstating the handling aspects of the '05.

I simply find it unlikely that the new Stang, with 55 series all season rubber, a strut suspension, and solid read axle can be such a dominent player in the handling department.

Based on the comments here, and in magazines, the bar has been set pretty high for SVT. They are going to need to break new handling records for the next gen. Cobra to even be an improvement on the GT.

Well a quick thought... Add wider wheels and stickier, larger tires, plus IRS, walaaa.

55 series has little to do with the overall handling. They could use something else and had the same handling results.

Rootus · Dec 1, 2004

RandyB said:
Is this post going to turn into an '04 Cobra vs. '05 GT debate as well? I wouldn't exactly call the handling differences between the two minute.

Oh, I don't know -- I think I'm willing to say that the GT corners quite well, all things considered, and it may very well be a good match for a stock 03/04 Cobra (assuming that both cars are just coasting through corners -- if throttle comes into play all bets are off, and it's curtains for the poor wittle GT). All we have is conjecture at this point (and a couple of tests done by magazines, which historically do a truly crappy job of accurately or consistently testing cars).

Dave

351CJ · Dec 1, 2004

sveet said:
I'm am going to start this off by admitting I have never driven an '05, so I might be pretty off on this.

Does anybody else find it hard to believe that a '05GT out handles '03-'04 Cobras and 350Z Track Models??

The hardware says it should be impossible. The tires on the GT alone should make all of this impossible. They are 55 series all season's for cripes sake. The Cobra has 275/40 Goodyear F1's.

And a strut front end, too. Can't even compare to the 350Z's double wishbone's ability to precisely locate the tire.

The car has a solid axle, and no mater how good you tune it, motions on one side are going to cause undesirable action on the other side.

I love the new GT's, but I can't help but questions these kind of comments being made by both magazines and repeated here over and over?????

Its not that hard to belive;

The '05's front suspension is a coil over strut very similar to the strut front suspension that BMW 3 series uses, including the M3. So are you suggesting that we start arguing that an M3 can't possibly out handle a 350Z because it has struts?

The 79 - 04's Mustang's front suspension is an abomination, including the Cobra. It is a screwed up modified MacPhearson strut that has the springs in the wrong place, has bad mounting points and has a roll center that is way too low.

The '05 GT has 53/47% front / rear weight balance verses the Cobra that has 57 / 43 F/R weight bias. Ever wonder why those dinky under-powered Miatas are so fast on an Auto-X course?

The '05's unibody is 50% stiffer in twisting and 30% stiffer in bending. The unibody is stiffer than a BMW 3 Series. Unibody stiffness does wonders for handling as it lets the suspension do its job w/o having to compensate for unwanted structure distortion.

IRS has more to do with comfort and handling on bumpy roads. On smooth roads a good live axle setup like the 05 has will be as good if not better than a kludge IRS like the Cobra has, which was a modified version of the MN-12 IRS adapted to fit into the old Mustang. The Cobra IRS is a long way from being an optimum design.

As far as the tires go, it really doesn't matter what you put on a car that has a flexy unibody and bad suspension design, fat sticky tires will not make up for all the other short comings of that car.

The most important thing is that the '05 is a clean sheet design that was specifically designed to be a sporty - performance car. ALL prior Mustangs were based off low cost economy cars (Falcon, Pinto, Fairmont). The last Mustang started out as a 1978 Fairmont that was an out-dated design the day it was introduced). That same basic Fox platform design has been band-aided for the last 25 years.

RandyB · Dec 1, 2004

Nevermind. I have seen the light.

'03-'04 Cobra Phear the '78 Fairmont...

Hey, I own one too. ('98 Cobra)

Rootus · Dec 1, 2004

351CJ said:
IRS has more to do with comfort and handling on bumpy roads.

I knew it, that's why I like the IRS. It's because the roads I drive on every day are filled with bumps, potholes, and other imperfections. I definitely think I'd like the ox cart axle much better if only my commute was on a racetrack. Thanks for helping me see the light.

Dave

duner · Dec 1, 2004

Rootus said:
I knew it, that's why I like the IRS. It's because the roads I drive on every day are filled with bumps, potholes, and other imperfections. I definitely think I'd like the ox cart axle much better if only my commute was on a racetrack. Thanks for helping me see the light.

Dave

Holy **** me too.

stkdidy · Dec 1, 2004

Rootus said:
I heard that it will out handle an M3...

that it will IMO, and in some others'.

my best friend has a turbo 95 m3, with eibach pro kit suspension. i gave him a ride in my new screamin yellow 05gt, and his first reaction was "shlt, this is pretty quick." then i took him on the freeway, taking the banked onramp turn (spd limit *20*) at 40+, pushing it to 55 as i came out of it and just barely broke it loose at the end...and he responded "holy shlt man, this doesn't even come close to hanging with my car, but its a worthy attempt by Ford."

granted its a 10yr old m3, but the very fact that an m3 driver was blown away makes me think these will handle comparably after supension esp.

btw hes turboing his m3 and its gonna kick ass...turbo is on, just needs a dyno tune now before he drives it.

sveet · Dec 1, 2004

351CJ said:
Its not that hard to belive;

The '05's front suspension is a coil over strut very similar to the strut front suspension that BMW 3 series uses, including the M3. So are you suggesting that we start arguing that an M3 can't possibly out handle a 350Z because it has struts?

The '05 GT has 53/47% front / rear weight balance verses the Cobra that has 57 / 43 F/R weight bias. Ever wonder why those dinky under-powered Miatas are so fast on an Auto-X course?

The '05's unibody is 50% stiffer in twisting and 30% stiffer in bending. The unibody is stiffer than a BMW 3 Series. Unibody stiffness does wonders for handling as it lets the suspension do its job w/o having to compensate for unwanted structure distortion.

IRS has more to do with comfort and handling on bumpy roads. On smooth roads a good live axle setup like the 05 has will be as good if not better than a kludge IRS like the Cobra has, which was a modified version of the MN-12 IRS adapted to fit into the old Mustang. The Cobra IRS is a long way from being an optimum design.

As far as the tires go, it really doesn't matter what you put on a car that has a flexy unibody and bad suspension design, fat sticky tires will not make up for all the other short comings of that car.

The most important thing is that the '05 is a clean sheet design that was specifically designed to be a sporty - performance car. ALL prior Mustangs were based off low cost economy cars (Falcon, Pinto, Fairmont). The last Mustang started out as a 1978 Fairmont that was an out-dated design the day it was introduced). That same basic Fox platform design has been band-aided for the last 25 years.

You must be arguing that the Stang has a better suspension than the M3, since BMW felt it necessary to use 40 and 45 series tires on 18" wheels to make up for it's deficiencies.

Mazda, too. The Mazdaspeed uses 17" wheels with 40 series tires. Must be a crap suspension, again, needing those agressive tires.

The clean sheet definitly allowed them to do the best they could, given todays technologies, within budget constraints. Without budget contraints and you would see some form of double wishbones / a-arms, etc... at both ends.

stkdidy · Dec 1, 2004

^ he messed with my response while i was in the bathroom, it read sumn like "this handles just as well as mine" lolol

sveet · Dec 1, 2004

stkdidy said:
that it will IMO, and in some others'.

my best friend has a turbo 95 m3, with eibach pro kit suspension. i gave him a ride in my new screamin yellow 05gt, and his first reaction was "shlt, this is pretty quick." then i took him on the freeway, taking the banked onramp turn (spd limit *20*) at 40+, pushing it to 55 as i came out of it and just barely broke it loose at the end...and he responded "holy shlt man, this doesn't even come close to hanging with my car, but its a worthy attempt by Ford."

granted its a 10yr old m3, but the very fact that an m3 driver was blown away makes me think these will handle comparably after supension esp.

btw hes turboing his m3 and its gonna kick ass...turbo is on, just needs a dyno tune now before he drives it.

'95 M3's and '05 M3's are more different than '04 and '05 Stangs................

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