05 Stang vs new GTO?

Z28x · Apr 15, 2004

skywarp said:
I can't see GM doing this. Lets say the GTO does fail sales wise. Why would GM go and design another rwd drive car with a V8 and possibly sell it for more money, when the GTO didn't do so hot.

The current GTO is just a stop gap car. GM NA has a 3 year deal with Holden to import 18,000 Monaros a year as GTOs. The current body style GTO will only be built for 3 years. The next GTO is being designed as we speak. Even if for some odd reason the GTO doesn't sell like they thought it would it will be too late, the next GTO will already be ready.

The next GTO will also be cheaper to build because it will be built in the US and used the Zeta platform which will be shared by a lot of new RWD and AWD GM cars which help spred out development costs.

Z28x · Apr 15, 2004

skywarp said:
No way. In the New York area theres about 12-15 available. The rarest are the Impulse blue, Barbadoes blue and possibly the Torrid red. Its not that you can't get them, nobody wants them.

THe biggest dealer near me has more Bonnie GXPs than GTOs (3 vs.1 )

Rampant · Apr 15, 2004

skywarp said:
No way. In the New York area theres about 12-15 available. QUOTE]

I think this is what he was referring to:
http://www.newagegto.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1143

Who knows of the validity of the statement, but if true, it looks like an issue early in the year that could explain the low Jan./Feb. sales figures. The line that caught my eye was: "With 30% of the GTO’s already ordered when production started..."

Not sure how true that is, but again, that might also indicate the lowe sales figures--if they counted pre-orders when they occurred instead of when they are delivered.

Who knows? I acutally think the success of the GTO will be good for the Mustang.

Z28x · Apr 15, 2004

Rampant said:
Who knows? I acutally think the success of the GTO will be good for the Mustang.

GTO success will be good for all RWD V8 fans. Same goes for '05+ Mustang. The better they sell, the more special models we will get.

If it wasn't for the LS1 Camaro SS and WS6 beating the Cobra year after year, I don't think we would have ever got the supercharged Cobra in '03

wayland1985 · Apr 15, 2004

So here's the deal. As already said by others, the GTO is based on an Austrailian Subsidiary of GM, Holden. In Austrailia, the Holden Monaro (GTO of Austrailia) is regarded as one of the best cars out there. Another benefit of the GTO is its overall fit and finish. Very clean interior, with very nice ammenities. Since its been around, any bugs associated with new cars are sure to be addressed (not likely to be recalled, or have little problems that were overlooked before production). It also has an edge on accessories, since manufactures in Australia are already catering to the Monaro.

So what's wrong with the GTO? Well, the styling is bland, which is both good and bad. If you want to stand out, you better rev the engine, because otherwise at a stoplight, the untrained eye is just looking at a Grand Am. The fact that it is a Pontiac "cookie cutter" style also means the cops won't be trailing you like they would a camaro.

Also, here's something most Ford guys know:
FORD LOVES RACING!!!

Ford is happy to work with their customers, helping them with engine upgrades. GM motors seem a bit secretive. They don't release much information on them, and all current LS1's are hard to work on (look at the camaro, or firebird....the windsheild is a good 2 cylinders over the engine....making it a knuckle breaker to work on.

It's too early to REALLY compare the Stang and the GTO. It's a safe bet that the GTO is better for a family, with a very generous rear seat. But the Mustang is also completely new, and domestic made. The GTO is shipped from austrailia....so true build quality is questionable. Ford has really stepped quality up a knotch. The mustang will feature new technologies, and will yield a lot more accessoroes in the long run.

Mustang exclusivity is basically a joke, at least here in Boston. You can't drive for 5 minutes without seeing 9 mustangs! THEYR"E EVERYWHERE,

I'm personally waiting for hte mustang....it's styling is very nice, Ford's quality appears far superior to GM, and is catching up to the Japanese market's standards (GM cars are notorious for little annoying mosquito problems (PROBLEMS THAT BUG YOU TO DEATH) like their power windows, engine knocking....etc)

Also, the ford is gauranteed to have a ton of accessories, along with aftermarket vendors, like Roush, Saleen, Steeda etc.

THERE'S ALSO RUMOUR OF A SHELBY MUSTANG IN THE WORKS!!!

Emil · Apr 16, 2004

It's sure nice to see the hp wars starting again, great times for the enthusiast!

Rampant · Apr 16, 2004

wayland1985 said:
Ford has really stepped quality up a knotch.

You can tell this from pictures of a pre-production car? I will reserve judgment on this until it comes out as Ford doesn't exactly have the reputation of "sparing no expense". I hope it is on par with the F-150 redo, but time will tell.

However, driving the GTO, that interior is really nice and overall quality seems high (from what little experience I have had with it). I wouldn't say the Australian build quality is "questionable" just because it isn't built in the U.S. I have heard of no complaints what-so-ever about build quality of the GTO/Monoro, even from the Aussies. And it has been around a while.

Overall, GM doesnt seem to be going after the Mustang crowd with this car, but rather the G35c crowd -- hence the bland/slightly more sophisticated appearance. I just think they overdid it and made it boring. Either way, it is great to see other companies finally getting back to making fun-to-drive RWD cars!

GT5oh · Apr 16, 2004

ttown said:
Unless gas prices go down I think you'll see the end of the HP wars soon, just like in 1973. The insurance companies are killing everyone but the older drivers and it's high for them too.

Wow dude you sure are negative and without reason. For starters, cylinder deactivation for powerful V8's is just starting, at least at Chrysler and GM which turns a 8 cylinder into a 4 for gas mileage purposes until ya need to accelerate which adds at least 5-8 mpg if not more this is the very beggining of this technology so im sure it will only get better. And if Fords top two rivals are doing this im sure Ford will eventually implament this technology as well. With this technology it will actually allow these manufacturers to build even bigger displacement V8's and keep or better the MPG of current smaller displacement engines.

Ford is introducing VVT on its 3v 4.6L,and im sure eventually other V8 applications will soon follow, which does help mpg as well and GM will probably be implamenting that technology on upcoming pushrod V8's as well.

And about your comment on the Mach 1 on the first page probably never comming back again. Wow I highly doubt that! It was such a sales hit and boost to the current mustang that they decided to extend its life another year when it was only slated as a one time model as the Bullit was. I'm sure it will eventually come back on the new mustang within a year or two. Ford needs a stop gap between the Cobra and GT performance and price wise and I'm sure with even more power than the current Cobra the new 06 Cobra's price will only be headed up.

Sounds like we are headed anywhere but 1973 to me!

mp67 · Apr 18, 2004

Z28x said:
I guess you don't have an eye for cars.
GTO = http://199.239.248.45//images/full/2003/s2003010901/pn2004gto6002.jpg
Calalier = http://www.ipublishers.com/autos/cavalier.jpg

RWD V8's

Why did you compare it to a four door cavalier? Here's a two door comparison. Can you tell the difference if you were just casually driving by them sitting side by side?

I think the cav looks better.

Cobra Jay · Apr 18, 2004

Personally I don't think the GTO's are all that bad. True they do look like the typical GP/Grand Am,Cavilar but at least GM decided to come back with a RWD V8 Musclecar after they discontinued the F-bodies, other than just offering the 'Vette.
Don't get me wrong, the new GTO doesn't even come close to the looks of the '05 'Stangs(or any 'Stang for that matter). Atleast GM had brains enough to build the GTO's RWD with a V8 unlike they did with the GP and the Monte Carlo SS that came out a few years back.

I think it's Cool that the Big 3 is bringing back some of the old Muscle car names. I'm glad to see that even Damnnear Chrysler is starting to see the light and decided to bring back RWD V8 cars. I always thought that Chrysler really screwed the pooch big time by not making a RWD V8-360-5Spd. Daytona or Avenger . Those cars would have sold big time, and would have been good competition for 'Stangs,Bird's and Camaro's. Yes Chrysler did come out with the Viper, but the average Joe can't really afford one. And the Prowler, as cool as it may look just doesn't qualify as Muscle car material.

Z28x · Apr 18, 2004

mp67 said:
Why did you compare it to a four door cavalier? Here's a two door comparison. Can you tell the difference if you were just casually driving by them sitting side by side?

I think the cav looks better.

Yes, it is easy to tell the difference. They look nothing alike other than the fact that they have 2 door and 4 wheels.

THe Mustang looks just as much like a cavalier as the GTO.

I guess every european and Japanese coupe looks like the cavalier too because they all share that "2-door version of a 4-door" coupe look. (unlike natural coupes like C5, Z28, Supra etc...)

skywarp · Apr 18, 2004

Z28x said:
THe Mustang looks just as much like a cavalier as the GTO.

Where the hell do you see that. The pic that mp67 put up is pretty damn close considering ones a econobox and the others a high end performance car.

Rampant · Apr 18, 2004

I think the GTO looks more like the 3-series than the Cav:

Fitting, considering that is more its competition. Pontiac is going for a more upscale buyer than the traditional musclecar guy. It is unfortunate they used the GTO name as it set peoples expectations way different than the car actually is -- a great performing luxury coupe.

mp67 · Apr 18, 2004

Z28x said:
Yes, it is easy to tell the difference. They look nothing alike other than the fact that they have 2 door and 4 wheels.

THe Mustang looks just as much like a cavalier as the GTO.

I guess every european and Japanese coupe looks like the cavalier too because they all share that "2-door version of a 4-door" coupe look. (unlike natural coupes like C5, Z28, Supra etc...)

Mustang looks like a cav? I saw a GTO the other day, and if I did not see the badges would not have gave it a second look. It may have a great interior, and nice motor, but it is just plain bland looking. Cars that the GTO resembles: 1. BMW 2. Cavalier 3. Honda coupe The new mustang stands out and will not be hard to distinguish from any other car.

mp67 · Apr 18, 2004

Rampant said:
I think the GTO looks more like the 3-series than the Cav:

Fitting, considering that is more its competition. Pontiac is going for a more upscale buyer than the traditional musclecar guy. It is unfortunate they used the GTO name as it set peoples expectations way different than the car actually is -- a great performing luxury coupe.

Agree with that. Should have called it something else, and came out with something else wearing the GTO name. If your going to reuse the name, you might as well have some resemblance to the true heritage.

Z28x · Apr 18, 2004

skywarp said:
Where the hell do you see that. The pic that mp67 put up is pretty damn close considering ones a econobox and the others a high end performance car.

I don't think the Mustang looks anything like a Cavi, neither does the GTO, that is why I said it, to show how dumb of a comparison it is.

If the GTO looks like any car it is the 3 Series or 6 seires BMW

numenor27 · Apr 18, 2004

Z28x said:
I think all 18,000 GTOs will have the 400HP LS2, it is replacing the LS1. Pontiac hasn't put out the official press release yet so I don't know for sure. The GTO autocross concept at SEMA had a LS1 with LS6 heads/cam making 400HP.

For another $8,000 one could get a Lingenfelter 480HP Superchaged LS1 GTO
http://lingenfelter.com/superchargedc5_intercooled.asp

Why would they put the Ls2 in the gto. The C6 corvette, which isnt in production yet, just got that new engine. Why would they put it in a 10k cheaper pontiac so soon?

ryanrule · Apr 18, 2004

someones mom at my hs has one. i only knew it was a gto because theres a little logo in the grill. besides that its a prix

Z28x · Apr 18, 2004

numenor27 said:
Why would they put the Ls2 in the gto. The C6 corvette, which isnt in production yet, just got that new engine. Why would they put it in a 10k cheaper pontiac so soon?

I don't know but they are. The GTO needs 400HP to better compete with the S/C Cobra and beat the Mach 1 and since the Gen III V8s (LS1/LS6) are going out of production the LS2 is the only choice. Looks like GM will win the '05 muscle car wars.

My guess is it will be underrated even more to 395HP or something to keep it out of the Vettes lime lite. The C6 is rumored to be underrated from 425HP+/- to 400HP to keep current Z06 owners happy. If you look at the SS concept from a year or so ago it had a 6.0L LS2 rated at 430hp.

Rootus · Apr 18, 2004

Z28x said:
Looks like GM will win the '05 muscle car wars.

I suppose that depends on how you define "win" . They've been "winning" the muscle car wars for years, if you definite winning as horsepower. Now, if you define it by production & sales... they keep losing badly. And I predict another losing year in 2005.

Dave

05 Stang vs new GTO?

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