My car would not start the other day, it would turn over just not run. It would run for a little bit with starter fluid, then die. I replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter. I had to prime the fuel pump about 10 times before the fuel presure gauge would read at least 30 p.s.i. But the car still will not start?
2000 GT starting problem
- Thread starter bigc2330
- Start date
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
Bad IAC will prevent starting.
May be a bad Idle Air Controller (IAC). Not allowing enough air to enter the TB for the motor to start.
Hold the throttle part way open during cranking. If it starts right up, this confirms the IAC is bad.
Also do a fuel pressure leak down test. Post the results.
Confirm the injectors are firing during cranking with a noid light.
Confirm the fuel pump is running right before cranking. Cycle the key on/off several times and note if the pump is running. Also note the fuel pressure. If you smell gas, this also indicates an injector is leaking.
Normally, I would say bad crank sensor or cam sensor. The fact the motor runs with starter fluid seams to indicate the sensors are OK.
The fuel pressure should come quickly up to specification from the few seconds the pumps runs when the key is turned on. If the fuel pressure is still low after replacing the pump, then the replacement pump may be bad, there is something blocking the flow of fuel (dirty pick up sock), or the problem is in the pump driver.
Assuming that anti-theft (PATS) is not activated (flashing theft light).
Long shot could be a gas tank vent problem (very long).
May be a bad Idle Air Controller (IAC). Not allowing enough air to enter the TB for the motor to start.
Hold the throttle part way open during cranking. If it starts right up, this confirms the IAC is bad.
Also do a fuel pressure leak down test. Post the results.
Confirm the injectors are firing during cranking with a noid light.
Confirm the fuel pump is running right before cranking. Cycle the key on/off several times and note if the pump is running. Also note the fuel pressure. If you smell gas, this also indicates an injector is leaking.
Normally, I would say bad crank sensor or cam sensor. The fact the motor runs with starter fluid seams to indicate the sensors are OK.
The fuel pressure should come quickly up to specification from the few seconds the pumps runs when the key is turned on. If the fuel pressure is still low after replacing the pump, then the replacement pump may be bad, there is something blocking the flow of fuel (dirty pick up sock), or the problem is in the pump driver.
Assuming that anti-theft (PATS) is not activated (flashing theft light).
Long shot could be a gas tank vent problem (very long).
COuld it have anything to do with a CCRM "constant control relay module" ?
My fuel lines are clear, fuel strainers are good, pump is good, vent is good. I dont want to have to tow my car to the dealer. I just dont know anything about the ccrm, but i do know it is located in the fender. The dealership will test the module unless it is on the car.
My fuel lines are clear, fuel strainers are good, pump is good, vent is good. I dont want to have to tow my car to the dealer. I just dont know anything about the ccrm, but i do know it is located in the fender. The dealership will test the module unless it is on the car.
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
Sure it could be the CCRM. However, it could just as easily be several other things. So, how do you want to fix this? Replace parts and hope to find the problem or test and replace the parts we are sure are bad? If #2, you are going to have to do some serious diagnostic work and report the results.
OBTW, why do you suspect the CCRM? Did something happen that might help to know?
Several good diagnostic items have already been mentioned. How's that going?
Let's add another good one. Check the fuses. All of them. This could easily be a simple fuse to the pump or FPRM. Esp look at fuse F1.14
So what's the next step?
OBTW, why do you suspect the CCRM? Did something happen that might help to know?
Several good diagnostic items have already been mentioned. How's that going?
Let's add another good one. Check the fuses. All of them. This could easily be a simple fuse to the pump or FPRM. Esp look at fuse F1.14
So what's the next step?
Well i bought a Noid light today to check the fuel injector wire harness a little later today. The only reason i suspect the ccrm is because the haynes manuel says my fuel pump relay and a relay for the pcm is all inside the ccrm. I have checked all fuses. All are good. I will post the results of the noid light test along with a test from the IAC.
Thanks
Thanks
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
OBTW, I am assuming that you checked the Inertia Fuel Shutoff Switch (IFS) in the trunk?
Also assuming that the anti-theft is not active.
If the key is cycled on/off can you hear the fuel pump run? Should only run for a few seconds on the initial key on.
Attached is the conector diagram of the CCRM.
Start out by confirming power on pin 11. Next monitor pin 5 as the key is cycled on/off. This is the fuel pump/FPDM relay output. Measure voltage between the pin and a known good ground. Post the results. If 12 volts is confirmed from pin #5 the problem is NOT in the CCRM.
The CCRM is very hard to access. Suggest that the right wheel and fender liner be removed as this may make things easier to access.
Also assuming that the anti-theft is not active.
If the key is cycled on/off can you hear the fuel pump run? Should only run for a few seconds on the initial key on.
Attached is the conector diagram of the CCRM.
Start out by confirming power on pin 11. Next monitor pin 5 as the key is cycled on/off. This is the fuel pump/FPDM relay output. Measure voltage between the pin and a known good ground. Post the results. If 12 volts is confirmed from pin #5 the problem is NOT in the CCRM.
The CCRM is very hard to access. Suggest that the right wheel and fender liner be removed as this may make things easier to access.
The inertia switch is okay.
I checked the IAC with throttle wide open, still nothing.
I don't believe the anti-theft is messing with me because when it is active, i believe that it doesn't even let the motor crank.
It will run for a few seconds with starter fluid.
I bought a noid light set, but none was for the mustang, so i didn't get to test the injector harness.
When i turn the key to the 'on' position, you can hear the fuel pump for like a half of a second.. Nothing like my 5.0.
How can I check the CCRM with the wire harness connected to test #5?
I checked for power to the #11 on the harness this morning to make sure I was at least getting power their.
I appreciate your help!!!!
I checked the IAC with throttle wide open, still nothing.
I don't believe the anti-theft is messing with me because when it is active, i believe that it doesn't even let the motor crank.
It will run for a few seconds with starter fluid.
I bought a noid light set, but none was for the mustang, so i didn't get to test the injector harness.
When i turn the key to the 'on' position, you can hear the fuel pump for like a half of a second.. Nothing like my 5.0.
How can I check the CCRM with the wire harness connected to test #5?
I checked for power to the #11 on the harness this morning to make sure I was at least getting power their.
I appreciate your help!!!!
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
The fuel pump should run for 3-5 seconds. Half of a second is too quick. If the pump is running at all, there is power coming out of the CCRM.
Not true about the PATS system. On the 1999+, when PATS is active, the car cranks but does not start. PATS disables the fuel system. Normally if the PATS system has been activated, the theft light will flash.
I know that PATS disables the fuel injectors. I think it is likely the fuel pump is disabled as well. This would explain the difficultly getting the fuel pump to prime.
The 1996-1998 model years will disable the starter.
Question, how can a noid light be car specific? Normally, you simply probe the wires with the tester. Crank the engine and watch. If the injector is firing, the noid light will flash. Note, the test could be done with a regular VOM meter. The meter may be hard to read as it will bounce with each pulse.
Your car is acting like the anti-theft has been activated. There are several "how to's" regarding trouble shooting the PATS system. A search should find them.
OBTW, to test a connector usually the back of the connector can be probed with a test lead. Be careful as it is possible to bend pins. Might find it easier to get a very narrow test probe.
The other method is to use a break out box. However, that the sort of tool a dealer has.
Not true about the PATS system. On the 1999+, when PATS is active, the car cranks but does not start. PATS disables the fuel system. Normally if the PATS system has been activated, the theft light will flash.
I know that PATS disables the fuel injectors. I think it is likely the fuel pump is disabled as well. This would explain the difficultly getting the fuel pump to prime.
The 1996-1998 model years will disable the starter.
Question, how can a noid light be car specific? Normally, you simply probe the wires with the tester. Crank the engine and watch. If the injector is firing, the noid light will flash. Note, the test could be done with a regular VOM meter. The meter may be hard to read as it will bounce with each pulse.
Your car is acting like the anti-theft has been activated. There are several "how to's" regarding trouble shooting the PATS system. A search should find them.
OBTW, to test a connector usually the back of the connector can be probed with a test lead. Be careful as it is possible to bend pins. Might find it easier to get a very narrow test probe.
The other method is to use a break out box. However, that the sort of tool a dealer has.
Regarding the noid lights, I don't know. I just now learned what they are.
I bought a box with about 10 different noid lights; 2 test different style IAC. Then some said GM, Bosch, and 1 said Ford TBI, which was too wide for my harness. I stuck 1 from the GM set in and nothing happened. I probed it with a test light and it lit up, but i didnt test it while it was cranking that way.
I do have the anti-theft light flashing when i try to crank it. I haved already disconnected the battery. Is there some way to disable that if that is my problem?
I used a OBD II scanner, just to see if anything would pop up and their is nothing.
I bought a box with about 10 different noid lights; 2 test different style IAC. Then some said GM, Bosch, and 1 said Ford TBI, which was too wide for my harness. I stuck 1 from the GM set in and nothing happened. I probed it with a test light and it lit up, but i didnt test it while it was cranking that way.
I do have the anti-theft light flashing when i try to crank it. I haved already disconnected the battery. Is there some way to disable that if that is my problem?
I used a OBD II scanner, just to see if anything would pop up and their is nothing.
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
How to activate cluster self test 99-04
Very IMPORTANT detail regarding the flashing anti-theft light. It is the PATS system that is disabling the fuel system preventing the car from starting (aren't you glad you didn't replace the CCRM?).
A review of other posts regarding PATS problems indicates that sometimes a WEAK battery can cause PATS problem. Check your battery. It the top of the battery CLEAN? Are the posts/terminals clean and tight? Is the battery holding a charge? If the battery is more than a few years old, consider having it tested. Auto parts store does them for free all of the time.
The PATS system can be disabled with a turner modification.
Did you do any work that might explain the problems? Steering column? PCM? wiring? Cluster?
I did a quick search of the tech threads and did not find a good post regarding troubling shooting the PATS system.
Start out by removing everything from the key ring except for the key itself. Sometimes large metal objects can cause problems.
There is a way to activate the cluster self test. Also count the number of times the light flashes and post the results.
Instrument Test
Activating Test Mode
To enter the HEC Dealer test mode,
1. Depress and hold the instrument cluster SELECT/RESET button,
2. Turn the ignition switch to the RUN position
3. Continue pressing the SELECT/RESET button (5 seconds) until tESt is displayed in the odometer.
Note:SELECT/RESET button must be released within 3 seconds of the odometer tESt display to begin the dealer test mode.
4. What will happen next is all your analog needles will "sweep" to their max positions and then drop back to normal. The digital readout will say "GAGE".
5. Push the button once and the next diagnostic will display
DTC trouble codes
9202 Fuel sender open circuit
9204 Fuel sender short to ground
9213 Anti-theft number of programmed keys is below minimum
A103 Antenna not connected-defective transceiver
9232 Antenna not connected-defective transceiver
9317 Battery Voltage high
9318 Battery voltage low
9342 ECU is defective
9356 Ignition run circuit open
9364 Ignition Start circuit open
9600 PATS Ignition Key Transponder Signal is Not Received - Damaged Key or non-PATSKey
9601 PATSReceived Incorrect Key-Code from Ignition Key Transponder (unprogrammed Encoded Ignition Key)
9602 PATS Received Invalid Format of Key-Code From Ignition Key Transponder (Partial Key Code)
9681 PATSTranceiver Signal is Not Received (Not Connected, Damaged, or Wiring)
A139 PCM ID does not match between Instrument Cluster and PCM
A141 NVM Configuration Failure (No PCM ID exchange between Instrument Cluster and PCM)
A143 NVM memory failure
5284 Oil Pressure Switch Failure
D027 SCP Invalid or Missing Data for Engine RPM
D041 SCP Invalid or missing data for Vehicle Speed
D043 SCP Invalid or missing data for Traction Control
D073 SCP Invalid or missing data for engine coolant
D123 SCP Invalid or missing data for Odometer
D147 SCP Invalid or missing data for vehicle security
D262 Missing SCP message.
Very IMPORTANT detail regarding the flashing anti-theft light. It is the PATS system that is disabling the fuel system preventing the car from starting (aren't you glad you didn't replace the CCRM?).
A review of other posts regarding PATS problems indicates that sometimes a WEAK battery can cause PATS problem. Check your battery. It the top of the battery CLEAN? Are the posts/terminals clean and tight? Is the battery holding a charge? If the battery is more than a few years old, consider having it tested. Auto parts store does them for free all of the time.
The PATS system can be disabled with a turner modification.
Did you do any work that might explain the problems? Steering column? PCM? wiring? Cluster?
I did a quick search of the tech threads and did not find a good post regarding troubling shooting the PATS system.
Start out by removing everything from the key ring except for the key itself. Sometimes large metal objects can cause problems.
There is a way to activate the cluster self test. Also count the number of times the light flashes and post the results.
Instrument Test
Activating Test Mode
To enter the HEC Dealer test mode,
1. Depress and hold the instrument cluster SELECT/RESET button,
2. Turn the ignition switch to the RUN position
3. Continue pressing the SELECT/RESET button (5 seconds) until tESt is displayed in the odometer.
Note:SELECT/RESET button must be released within 3 seconds of the odometer tESt display to begin the dealer test mode.
4. What will happen next is all your analog needles will "sweep" to their max positions and then drop back to normal. The digital readout will say "GAGE".
5. Push the button once and the next diagnostic will display
DTC trouble codes
9202 Fuel sender open circuit
9204 Fuel sender short to ground
9213 Anti-theft number of programmed keys is below minimum
A103 Antenna not connected-defective transceiver
9232 Antenna not connected-defective transceiver
9317 Battery Voltage high
9318 Battery voltage low
9342 ECU is defective
9356 Ignition run circuit open
9364 Ignition Start circuit open
9600 PATS Ignition Key Transponder Signal is Not Received - Damaged Key or non-PATSKey
9601 PATSReceived Incorrect Key-Code from Ignition Key Transponder (unprogrammed Encoded Ignition Key)
9602 PATS Received Invalid Format of Key-Code From Ignition Key Transponder (Partial Key Code)
9681 PATSTranceiver Signal is Not Received (Not Connected, Damaged, or Wiring)
A139 PCM ID does not match between Instrument Cluster and PCM
A141 NVM Configuration Failure (No PCM ID exchange between Instrument Cluster and PCM)
A143 NVM memory failure
5284 Oil Pressure Switch Failure
D027 SCP Invalid or Missing Data for Engine RPM
D041 SCP Invalid or missing data for Vehicle Speed
D043 SCP Invalid or missing data for Traction Control
D073 SCP Invalid or missing data for engine coolant
D123 SCP Invalid or missing data for Odometer
D147 SCP Invalid or missing data for vehicle security
D262 Missing SCP message.
This afternoon i had a locksmith come out and cut me 2 new keys and matched the memory to them.
He said that the scanner showed that the computer doesnt recognized my key.
The car started right up, but dies if you dont hold down the gas pedal.
Cause of a busy schedule I didnt check my fuel pressure again.
I'm going to check my fuel pressure on Thursay, cause that is my next day off work and I usually work between 12-16 hour days.
I am thinking that i got a bad fuel pump, when I put one in thinking that was my original problem.
I had no knowledge about the PATS, before talking to you, so I didn't pay any attention to that flashing theft light when i was trying to start the car up.
I have owned one other vehicle and I still have it and it is a '90 Mustang 5.0 LX and that machine is simple with no problems.
He said that the scanner showed that the computer doesnt recognized my key.
The car started right up, but dies if you dont hold down the gas pedal.
Cause of a busy schedule I didnt check my fuel pressure again.
I'm going to check my fuel pressure on Thursay, cause that is my next day off work and I usually work between 12-16 hour days.
I am thinking that i got a bad fuel pump, when I put one in thinking that was my original problem.
I had no knowledge about the PATS, before talking to you, so I didn't pay any attention to that flashing theft light when i was trying to start the car up.
I have owned one other vehicle and I still have it and it is a '90 Mustang 5.0 LX and that machine is simple with no problems.
wmburns
SN Certified Technician
PCM needs to re-learn Idle settings
Your problem may be that the engine has not run long enough for the PCM to re-learn the idle trim. This is a result of disconnecting the battery.
If the car runs with the pedal down, the fuel pump is working.
There is a procedure to force the PCM to re-learn IAC idle trim faster. Allow the car to idle for a full minute with the AC off. Then turn the AC on and idle for another full minute.
I had a 96 automatic that was impossible to drive after removing the battery unless this procedure was done (would die instantly when put in drive).
In your case, more idling with your foot just barely on the gas may be needed.
If after that it still will not idle, then the Idle air controller (IAC) has a problem or you have a vacuum leak.
Start by looking for a vacuum leak (esp with all the work done). For that matter, check for vacuum leaks regardless. Otherwise, it will come back and bite you.
Use your ODB2 scanner to monitor the IAC percent. Should be about 50%. It should change as load on the motor changes (AC on/off, lights on/off).
OBTW, why did you replace the fuel pump in the first place?
Your problem may be that the engine has not run long enough for the PCM to re-learn the idle trim. This is a result of disconnecting the battery.
If the car runs with the pedal down, the fuel pump is working.
There is a procedure to force the PCM to re-learn IAC idle trim faster. Allow the car to idle for a full minute with the AC off. Then turn the AC on and idle for another full minute.
I had a 96 automatic that was impossible to drive after removing the battery unless this procedure was done (would die instantly when put in drive).
In your case, more idling with your foot just barely on the gas may be needed.
If after that it still will not idle, then the Idle air controller (IAC) has a problem or you have a vacuum leak.
Start by looking for a vacuum leak (esp with all the work done). For that matter, check for vacuum leaks regardless. Otherwise, it will come back and bite you.
Use your ODB2 scanner to monitor the IAC percent. Should be about 50%. It should change as load on the motor changes (AC on/off, lights on/off).
OBTW, why did you replace the fuel pump in the first place?
The reason why i switched fuel pumps is because I am used to working on older vehicles, where if your car doesn't start and you have fire at the plugs and the car starts after spraying carb cleaner or starter fluid into the intake, then your fuel pump is defective.
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