306 vs 347 stroker

90Notch said:

Using your engineering/pyhsics theory how do you explain the longevity of Honda motors specifically the B18C5, which has the following specs:

8.347" deck height, 3.189" bore, 3.433" stroke, 1.195" compression height, 1.89" journals and makes 195 HP @ 8000rpm? This motor is clearly making more friction, as well as, applying more force to the side wall than a 347.

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Only a stool would care to know the specs of a ricer engine
How about a rod length? Plus I'm sure a 4 cylinder with 3.189" bore pistons has more surface area than an 8 with 4.030" pistons.

I guess you and all the other fart-canners disagree with DSS, CHP, MMFF, 5.0 mag, etc etc, because you know better go back and read all my posts ... f.r.

(Special Ed) Things have mass ... and mass is a factor, yeah!!!

double post

Grn92LX said:

I wonder how erik K from hardcore50 managed to get over 185k out of his 3.40 stroke car?

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I wonder how numerous other people managed to get more than that outta a 3.00" (302) stroke car?? You can't take a select few cases and use them as the general rule of thumb. This is a ridiculous point.

Lets start over ... the 347 has had some physical ailments since day one.
Why have some manufacturers deviated to shorter rods and offset wrist pins? ... Because the 347 has always had some physical ailments since day one.

To anyone else here with a 347, yes, yes we know they are perfect and nobody better say otherwise.

2000xp8 said:

Well, supposidly the hypertectic pistons help keep oil consumption low, and it's now made with the sportsman block, not the stock one.

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What's the deck height on the sportsman block?

Well the 302 based FORD Sportsman is a 8.2 deck +/- .014", the DART Sportsman is 8.2 deck +/- .008" from what I have seen. The Ford 302 based Sportsman is a waste of money, itis a glorified stock block that is still weak up the middle and will split just like a stock after 450HP.

The .030" overbore on a 302 is fine, .060 is OK if you half or fully fill with Hardblock. The BOSS 302 or MEXICAN block can go to a .060 with no issues at all, it is a nice block not to far off of a R302 or A4 block.

The reliability issue of the older style kits was 100% in the piston design, they onlt offered 5.4" rod kits with offset pistons, 1.09" CH piston.

The new kits even with the 5.4" rod, 1.09" CH piston has the intersecting oil ring but the design has changed from different manufactors. If they are assembled correctly machined correctly you will have absoultly no issues at all. For all the guys that are scared of the 5.4" rod 347 you can build a 5.315" rod, 1.175" CH piston motor on the same 3.4" stroke. This uses the exact piston that a 5.4" rod 331 uses and gives you a little more meat and the rings are above the oil ring.

89CopCoupe, as a fellow engineer your tech data was correct, no one should argue that. However, I will state that you can build a reliable 347 that will not have any oil control issues with the newer technology, even with the intersecting wrist pin.

I didn't come in to argue but it was brought to my attention since my name was tossed into the mix. I build both combo's and leave it up to the owner as to which rod they want, they both make similar power and will last a long time and be reliable when I build them.

I tend to build the 5.315" combo's if a guy wants to use it in a power adder car, this gives a little more meat to the piston which is important. I also try to steer or recomend that power adder cars especially with boost go to a 331 for the same reason, along with a few others as far as out of the box pistons and compression ratio's go.

2000xp8 I can build a nice Economy 331/347 shortblock for under $2300 using name brand parts, stock block, SCAT 9000 series crank, 4340 Probe or SCAT Rods, Probe SRS 2618 forged series pistons, Total Seal or Perfect Circle plasma molt rings, Clevitte bearings, etc... My forged crank motors, SCAT or EAGLE 4340 crank, and a SCAT or EAGLE 4340 H-beam motors start around $2450. SO you can build a better stroker motor for less then $2300.

Mike pics and motor will be done this week

Off to the NMRA event at Maple Grove....

Go 347.....you wont regret it. I have a 347 in my DAILY DRIVER and got 3000k on it with out a hitch. Been driving everyday since it was installed. gets stronger and stronger every week. Torque is unbelievable. Mine is around 328 with those choking parts in my sig. Imagine next summer with a set of afr 185's and a custom cam and bigger injectors. WOW...I say go 347.

"Only a stool would care to know the specs of a ricer engine
How about a rod length? Plus I'm sure a 4 cylinder with 3.189" bore pistons has more surface area than an 8 with 4.030" pistons.

I guess you and all the other fart-canners disagree with DSS, CHP, MMFF, 5.0 mag, etc etc, because you know better"

So let's see I provide with another example disproving your theories and you call me a stool. I also have an engineering degree (foruntately have since moved onto bigger and better things) but still now the value in evaluating other scenarios before making a conclusion. You state that the 347 will wear faster and not be as reliable as a 302 because it creates more friction and the piston applies more side load to the cylinder wall. The Honda motor but let me do the math for you since apparantly you can't has a 5.436" rod (8.347-1.195-3.433/2). So (here's some engineering/pyhsics so pay attention you must have slept through these classes) the force being applied to the side wall comes the from the force applied on components during the stroke, geometry and weight of components. Honda motor makes approximately 50HP per cylinder, which is comparable to a 347 making 400HP. Yes others have made more but so do the tuners. Honda motor has greater rpm (this is all per cylinder), similar geometry since it has roughly a 5.4"ish rod and 3.4"ish stroke and weight I'll assume the same. Although my gut instinct is weight is smaller because it has slightly smaller journals on the heavy stuff (rods and crank). Now the force being applied to the walls gets transmitted through the pistons skirt surface area and since the Honda has a smaller skirt there will be more load concentrated on the cylinder walls than the Ford motor. Is it safe to say that the friction is greater in the 8000rpm motor?

Using your logic it all adds to a motor that should be lasting 20,000 yet turning 100,000 miles on one is just get them broken in.

You just flat out lost me when saying that a 3.189" bore and 1.195"ch pistons has more surface area than a 4.03" bore and 1.09" ch piston?

Rick 91GT said:

The Ford 302 based Sportsman is a waste of money, it is a glorified stock block that is still weak up the middle and will split just like a stock after 450HP.

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Rick,

A good friend of mine just had a 331 built with a 302 based sportsman block. I argued with him for a few months on this and told him that if he was spending the extra money to just step up to an R302 or a Dart block. He still insists that it will be ok for his setup which he is planning for around 550-600 RWHP.
His combo consists of Sportsman based 331 / 8.5 CR with AFR 185's, AFM B-41 cam, ported Holley Systemax, and a YSI Trim with 60 lb. injectors.

How much power do you feel he will be safe with?

Thanks and good luck at Maple Grove!

Kevin

Rick, keep in mind i never said it was an all out race motor, and i only referred to it in NA situations. And i wouldn't exactly call it worthless, it's a decent motor at a good price. Most stangnetters would be unable to get it past 450 NA as you suggest, although i've seen it handle more.
Down time for a car for an engine to be pulled and completely redone is about what, minimum 2 months?
If you are only building a NA street car, if you use the FMS 347 the car can be done in less than a weekend. And as i said it will run just like the car cam from the factory.

90mustangGT said:

I have a 306 sitting in the garage right now, forged pistons, nicley machined. I got good deal on it but I am hesitant because of my dream/goal and I am thinking of selling it to put the money towards a 347.

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how much would you be willing to sell it for? any pics?

Grn92LX said:

You just proved what you tried disproving According to you, "more up and down movement = more wear". 331, 4.6, 408 whatever ALL have MORE up and down movement than a 302.

Well said, 90Notch Experience > text books

I wonder how erik K from hardcore50 managed to get over 185k out of his 3.40 stroke car?

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How did I do that? I like how 89CopCoupe stated "I wonder how numerous other people managed to get more than that outta a 3.00" (302) stroke car?? You can't take a select few cases and use them as the general rule of thumb. This is a ridiculous point. "

So these 408's are lasting as long as the 5.0L? So the 4.6L's have the same piston rings and variable angles/rotating weight/valvetrain/etc? Yeah that is what I thought...Again I concur with 89CopCoupe - That is a ridiculous point

89CopCoupe said:

Lets start over ... the 347 has had some physical ailments since day one.
Why have some manufacturers deviated to shorter rods and offset wrist pins? ... Because the 347 has always had some physical ailments since day one.

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Correctomundo, you can't just throw more up and down piston travel out of the way even if it has gotten "better". It still does not have the potential longevity of 302/306's internal ratios. I can't believe it is being argued. Or wait...maybe I can by the bias

89CopCoupe said:

To anyone else here with a 347, yes, yes we know they are perfect and nobody better say otherwise.

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Lol...so true.

To each his own. I dont care what the stats say. I do what I want and if it dosent work...so be it. live and learn. I went 347 because its different than some or most( however you look at it) and plus I just plain wanted one. just my .02 1/2

Ahhhh.... this is what I love most about the internet myth threads. A bunch a folks chatting around a camp fire about something most have little or no practical experience with while the rest claim to engineers. LOL Is it a wonder soap operas were created?

Daggar said:

Ahhhh.... this is what I love most about the internet myth threads. A bunch a folks chatting around a camp fire about something most have little or no practical experience with while the rest claim to engineers. LOL Is it a wonder soap operas were created?

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I'm with you. Not to be insulting, but I base thing by what happens at the track. When I see a car run really good, I've got to find outs what's happening. It's all about what's on paper, the timeslip that is.

90mustangGT said:

It's all about what's on paper, the timeslip that is.

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Exactly, and i see enough timeslips everyday to know what works. Big daddy doesn't even waste his time building anything less than 347's.

347 NA, extrude honed canfields, 11.0 on drag radials, in a 100% street car, no roll bar, all accessories. (hardcore street guy, for practice he shuts it down at 1000ft., and makes a full run on last pass).

There's a handful of others i see, but this one sticks out in my mind, because all the engine components were taken directly off a 302, and put on a 347.

89sleeper said:

Rick,

A good friend of mine just had a 331 built with a 302 based sportsman block. I argued with him for a few months on this and told him that if he was spending the extra money to just step up to an R302 or a Dart block. He still insists that it will be ok for his setup which he is planning for around 550-600 RWHP.
His combo consists of Sportsman based 331 / 8.5 CR with AFR 185's, AFM B-41 cam, ported Holley Systemax, and a YSI Trim with 60 lb. injectors.

How much power do you feel he will be safe with?

Thanks and good luck at Maple Grove!

Kevin

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Ford down graded them to 400HP for a reason, I know some that have split with 400HP NA on an engine dyno, when others have taken more in NA form. I was just at Maple Grove to spectate and catch up with some friends, got some nice sun as well Hope to have my lil monster out in August, neighbors are going to love when I finally start it up..lol

2000xp8- I only refer to them as worthless as far as the Sportsman block goes since guys tend to think they are getting something much stringer then stock, when the reality is they aren't. If you want to make more then 500HP and have it live, especially on a blower car a DART Sportsman, DART Iron Eagle or Ford Racing block is the way to go. My comparassion in price was just to shpw you could build a Stronger motor (strength) with better quality parts (forged pistons, etc) for the same or less money. Yes lead time is 4-6 weeks.....but worth the wait in my opinion, most guys are not buying or building a 347 for the daily driver, workhorse. I feel hyper pistons do not belong in a motor that tends to take a lot of abuse or a power adder.

90Notch said:

... Honda ... B18C5, which has the following specs: ........ This motor is clearly making more friction, as well as, applying more force to the side wall than a 347.

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With all that 'Big metal' in the rotating assembly of a 1.8 Honda gee, it "CLEARLY" applies more force The greatest angle the r.a. from your rice comes at a 18.4* angle compared to the 347's 18.3* ... wow!! This is similar to comparing forces inside a moped to a Harley

90Notch said:

So let's see I provide with another example disproving your theories and you call me a stool.

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You're right, you aren't a stool, you're the whole intestine

90Notch said:

I also have an engineering degree (foruntately have since moved onto bigger and better things)

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Like my d*kk Inform us where you earned your degree so others can avoid going there ... you're really comparing forces in a 1.8 vs a 5.7 to compare longevity

90Notch said:

You state that the 347 will wear faster and not be as reliable as a 302 because it creates more friction and the piston applies more side load to the cylinder wall.

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Wear faster, Yes ... ... reliablity, never said that

90Notch said:

The Honda motor but let me do the math for you since apparantly you can't has a 5.436" rod (8.347-1.195-3.433/2).

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So a piston slightly in/or out of the hole will have the same rod length on this engine
Ahem, it has a 1.860" rod according to your formula Can't even work out subtraction and division

90Notch said:

... Honda motor makes approximately 50HP per cylinder .......Although my gut instinct is weight is smaller because it has slightly smaller journals on the heavy stuff (rods and crank).

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Gee Wally, could the fact it's missing 4 cylinders with accompanying components (rods, counterweights, pistons, friction, etc) give you that "gut instinct" (told you you were an intestine ) With all the overwhelming friction in a 1.8 how does that beast make 50hp per cylinder

90Notch said:

Now the force being applied to the walls gets transmitted through the pistons skirt surface area and since the Honda has a smaller skirt there will be more load concentrated on the cylinder walls than the Ford motor. Is it safe to say that the friction is greater in the 8000rpm motor?

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This is actually the most compelling case you've made, but the fact the weight (mass) is less, there is less # per square inch applied to the wall as well as less friction area due to the shorter skirt and smaller bore.

90Notch said:

You just flat out lost me when saying that a 3.189" bore and 1.195"ch pistons has more surface area than a 4.03" bore and 1.09" ch piston?

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The bore differential is the greatest contrast between the two as far as total friction area ...
The additional compression height on the 1.8 allows more room for piston ring lands as well ... that helps keep oil outta the combustion chamber which is always a good thing.
And remember a 4 cylinder 347 would measure 2.8L ...still better than rice

89CopCoupe I'm trying to validate one come back that you had above but am having trouble. I don't know where to begin but yes the 1.8L has 4 cyl and this doesn't matter for the forces you're talking about. The force you're talking in each cylinder is what counts and having eight cylinders doesn't make a difference or create more force in the equation. Also having the same force applied in a smaller cylinder results in more force being distributed throughout the surface. The more you write the more your ignorance comes out.

By the way last time I checked 8.437"-1.195"-1.716"(3.433"/2)=5.436" scooter.
So let me spell it out since you're having trouble with this concept...5.436" rod + 1.716" stroke + 1.195" ch equals a 8.437" deck height.

Rick 91GT said:

Well the 302 based FORD Sportsman is a 8.2 deck +/- .014" .......

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I know, I wanted to point out the fact that many people still use "old school" stuff.

Rick 91GT said:

The new kits even with the 5.4" rod, 1.09" CH piston has the intersecting oil ring but the design has changed from different manufactors. If they are assembled correctly machined correctly you will have absoultly no issues at all.

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(Based on perfect machining) how does a quantity of oil not get consumed when the pins are lubricated ... capping the pin bores in some fashion?

Rick 91GT said:

I didn't come in to argue but it was brought to my attention since my name was tossed into the mix. I build both combo's and leave it up to the owner as to which rod they want, they both make similar power and will last a long time and be reliable when I build them.

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I've never thought the 347 to be crap or horrible in design ... and "a long time" is relative. To me a sbf is worn too much after 100K, no matter the cubes

Daggar said:

Ahhhh.... this is what I love most about the internet myth threads. A bunch a folks chatting around a camp fire about something most have little or no practical experience with while the rest claim to engineers. LOL Is it a wonder soap operas were created?

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For cryin' out loud, you know you love it ...