Roush 351 Question

Because Saleen has manufacturer status they have to answer to the EPA. Most of the other "mustang tuners" do not have to live up. Because of that reason they were no longer able to keep the 351 motor within all of the standards the EPA required at the time. Just as an example, Joe ( CHicane Sport Tuning ) had to develop his Dual Pass radiator for keeping the engine temps down as well as cooling fans above the fuel tank to keep the fuel temps down. I could go on. It was a lot of work. They gave up in 1999. Subsequently, a few 2000 chassis cars made it through to complete the 46 car build for 99-00. If you catch Joe when he's not under a car he can talk all day about being in a 110 degree completely sealed room in the middle of the desert in Arizona with every wire the EPA could throw at them to see if a S351 could pass muster. The rest is history.
Incedentally, Joe also came up with the center exhaust for the prototype 99 S351 ( after 1996 they all came supercharged ) but with the pipes being routed so close to the fuel tank the production cars did not get them. You can purchase the center exhaust bumper and pipe from Chicane to this day for any 99-04 Mustang.

You could fully option an S351 for right between what you pay for an S281 S/C vert like you have and an E car today. Just about the same pricing.

elburrito99 said:

Marcus,
For some reason, I've recently become a bit obsessed with the 351 Saleens.

Thanks for the info. How did I know you'd have the back story? Joe is a great resource; I've had a few lengthy conversations with him over the years. We're lucky to have him here in the South Bay.


--Stu

Click to expand...

It's easy to become obsessed with these cars. I want a 99-2000 but I would have to sell mine and I just can't do it. Someday I will get one and have both!

elburrito99 said:

Marcus,
For some reason, I've recently become a bit obsessed with the 351 Saleens.

Thanks for the info. How did I know you'd have the back story? Joe is a great resource; I've had a few lengthy conversations with him over the years. We're lucky to have him here in the South Bay.


--Stu

Click to expand...

I agree. I just hope he doesn't get burned out. He is a bit of a legend. Forget about owning an S351 unless you have one of those 4 car tandem Hill section homes with good ventilation.
Owning an S351 is a lot like owning a racehorse. Boy when she is running good all is well in the world. When she's not she smells like fuel and needs to go to the vet often. The only reason I don't own a couple more cars is garage space for sure. In my hood on the Hill there is no overnight parking on the street and the HOA frowns on cars parked in the driveway.

I have owned both.

P.M me if you want details.

Owning an s351

marcus95 said:

I agree. I just hope he doesn't get burned out. He is a bit of a legend. Forget about owning an S351 unless you have one of those 4 car tandem Hill section homes with good ventilation.
Owning an S351 is a lot like owning a racehorse. Boy when she is running good all is well in the world. When she's not she smells like fuel and needs to go to the vet often. The only reason I don't own a couple more cars is garage space for sure. In my hood on the Hill there is no overnight parking on the street and the HOA frowns on cars parked in the driveway.

Click to expand...

I have owned both a real blown car, and a bastard...one that was converted to a blower from a NA s351, using the factory saleen S351 package.

The original sc ( 1998 Speedster) car was nice..very nice, but ran a very mild tune.....as they all do. The converted car since it is already a bastard, I have chosen to organize the car in a way that it will run...plain and simple.

Recently, I decided to unhook the standard fuel management system ( but leave it on the car for originality), install 50lb injectors, and flash the computer to run the fuel management.

I started with 470 RWHP, but it had a rough power curve. I just installed the injectors...and the computer is being flashed this week. I do not expect huge power gains, but I do expect drivability gains. A much more stable power curve, with complete control over A/F ratio...in a way that the original fuel management could not deliver.


The new cars make HUGE HP, but I prefer a balance of nice HP and HUGE torque!

S351's are no Toyota for ease...but they are unique. And fun to run on dyno days. I recently had some fun doing that...but in the near future, it should be fool proof....or me proof!

Dan

New S351 tune

marcus95 said:

I have owned both.

P.M me if you want details.

Click to expand...

I decided to take our '95 S351 and guve it an even more proper tune. We unhooked the FMU, and installed 50lb injectors. Next step was to install a custom chip,and spend a couple of afternoons on the dyno.

Pre change, I got 400 RWHP, abut a very shaky power curve. I then adjusted Fuel Pressure etc.,...and got a nice curve but 360 RWHP.

On to the changes, first couple of runs, 425 RWHP, 450 RWHP, more chip adjustments, 470 RWHP and when I left yesterday, they had registered 490 RWHP, with some fat fuel at 4600-4900 RPM. They spent today making more chip changes, but I did not have time to visit the car. They did not expect big power gains but they did predict a steady A/F ratio from start to roughly 6K rpm. I do not expect to do much total WOT, but as long as it is on their dime, have fun! I think they are blowing a bit of smoke. I think it will top out over 500 RWHP. The tuner is simply way to anal about having a perfect curve, and optimum a( and safe) A/F ratios.

I can tell you, that simply watching the car on the dyno, it leaps up when nailed, where before, it sped up, but at more......relaxed pace.

So, final numbers are t be published next week. I know the new 281 cars make huge numbers, but I am an old school guy. Torque is where it is at for me.

Best regards.

Dan

elburrito99 said:

p.s. Marcus -- you put a blower on your S281, right?

Click to expand...

He did. He's also driven mine and some others. He's also owned a s351 sc. I really think he should post his thoughts here and come clean...

Well,


There's just too much info and not enought space on here.


S351R = not a daily driver

05 and up S281 3 valve, S/C, E car. Apples and oranges compared to a properly tuned S351. Put it this way. Roll on freeway 4th gear pulls on my buddy's Viper proved two things:


I will never spend any amount of money on a Viper or a GTS.

My buddy spent another 8k on a Novi and tune so he could pull away. Oh yea. He needed 835 rwhp to do it.

Until someone figures out how to completely get around the drive by wire spanish oak pcm on the new cars I'll take a pass. Then again, I'm one picky son of a bitch. Probably does not help that I used to be a test driver for Mercedes and BMW.

OK, some explanation needed

marcus95 said:

Well,


There's just too much info and not enought space on here.


S351R = not a daily driver

05 and up S281 3 valve, S/C, E car. Apples and oranges compared to a properly tuned S351. Put it this way. Roll on freeway 4th gear pulls on my buddy's Viper proved two things:


I will never spend any amount of money on a Viper or a GTS.

My buddy spent another 8k on a Novi and tune so he could pull away. Oh yea. He needed 835 rwhp to do it.

Until someone figures out how to completely get around the drive by wire spanish oak pcm on the new cars I'll take a pass. Then again, I'm one picky son of a bitch. Probably does not help that I used to be a test driver for Mercedes and BMW.

Click to expand...

Ok, I laughed pretty hard.




But, when you wake up on the left coast, could you please explain the spanish oak PCM thing?

Dan

Basically Marcus won't own either car is what he's saying.

The S351 is too problematic and the 05+ car's drive by wire system is really noticeable to his sensitive foot.

The spanish oak is a computer module that effectively sits between your pedal and the throttle body and actually tweaks the pedal input in a predictive manner before sending a signal to the throttle. Its predicitive model is based on your driving habits and learns from you. Regardless of how you drive though many people are able to detect the hesitation between your initial input on the pedal and the car's response.

Maybe you should look at an S351 Naturally Aspirated like I did. I had the opportunity to buy both last spring. The R-Code supercharged model would have only ran me another $5,000 (which makes sense). On that note, I was in both cars. In truth, the supercharged car is the same amount of power as the T-Code (Naturally Aspirated), until you get to 3rd gear and onward. As well, the R-Code's S/Cer is noticed in lower RPM's in 3rd and above as well when you roll on the throttle. On that note, and in my critical thoughts, the T-code won, hands down. I drove this car 2,000 miles home and it left me with the same feeling as my Toyota 4Runner Limited - it will get me home without incident. To this date, I would drive this car every single day if I had to - but I do not as I have 4 more to drive for that. Therefore, I will drive it only on the nice days and / or the car show cruises that run anywhere from 30 miles to 500 miles. Powerwise, I am not a speeder, but I sure love the low end tourque and getting to 70 miles an hour in a quick hurry (love it arount town!). My T-Code will keep up with an R-Code to 70 miles an hour any day (or so very close it does not count). And I have 3:27 gears and not the 3:55's. After 70mph, the R-Code will slowily pull away until top end and high gear. Once again, I do not enjoy 120 mph on public highways, etc. anyway. On another note, any R-Code or T-Code car that you WOT in 1st gear, you will just "Fred Flintstone" it anyway. All engine and sound, but your car barley moves as it is too busy concentrating on spinning for infinity. The 1998 R-Code car that I was considering was not a daily driver as Marcus has stated. It has been tuned 3 times, and still did not idle properly (wavering from 700 RPM to 1,300 RPM when at idle). My T-Code has the injectors upgraded to R-Code size so it gets more fuel and does not lean out, and I have a Pro-M adjustable mass air sensor on it. At the end of the day, I happen to appreciate a s/c'ed S351 car. But for me, the T-Code is worth more to myself as I can enjoy it just as much, it is absolutley a maniacly fast car - turn key, ready to go ANYWHERE. This is worth much more to me. It has already seen 59,000 miles of trouble free driving and is ready for more. On that note it has scored 997 out of 1,000 points at its last show with 56,000 miles. The car looks like brand new yet as the previous owner was as meticulous as they come and in his 40's. This is key to look for whether an R Code or a T Code - an meticulous owner. It is easy to drive the crap out of these cars and not maintain them. That is when you are looking for BIG trouble.

The final word

marcus95 said:

Well,


There's just too much info and not enought space on here.


S351R = not a daily driver

05 and up S281 3 valve, S/C, E car. Apples and oranges compared to a properly tuned S351. Put it this way. Roll on freeway 4th gear pulls on my buddy's Viper proved two things:


I will never spend any amount of money on a Viper or a GTS.

My buddy spent another 8k on a Novi and tune so he could pull away. Oh yea. He needed 835 rwhp to do it.




Yep, you are picky! Well deserved.....but picky none the less. I think most of us are! Just wanted to attempt to bring a little humor!


I will confess, that I have a modern drive by my office winfow every afternoon at 4:30. Man, it does sound unusualy beastly. A captivating low powerful exhaust note. I do not know if it is an sc car, it just sounds great. Not loud, but great. Live Oak or none, it sounds really nice.

Dan

Until someone figures out how to completely get around the drive by wire spanish oak pcm on the new cars I'll take a pass. Then again, I'm one picky son of a bitch. Probably does not help that I used to be a test driver for Mercedes and BMW.

Click to expand...

Final Outcome

footnfan said:

Ok, I laughed pretty hard.




But, when you wake up on the left coast, could you please explain the spanish oak PCM thing?

Dan

Click to expand...

508 Tq, 505 hp. 60 lb injectors. Predator chip...I think! sorry it has been a long day. It is a completely different cat. Gigantic midrange pop.

Dan