5.4 dohc in Aussie Ford Falcon

since we are talking about the falcon i was wondering how this car would fair against the skyline since both are a simular side of the market. i believe that both are offered in AWD and both have good performance numbers
anyone ever seen a comparasin done for both of them

I think that this is the sweetest looking overseas Ford out there- I wish I could have one here in Chicago!!!!!

BOSS 260 MIGHT be built in Canada, but the 290 isn't, most definitely. The AWD version of the falcon is only availible as a ute, same as Holden's offering atm.

EDIT: Hang on, I think Holden also has a coupe in AWD.

Wow- that exchange was fun to watch.

Ford has what they need ready to go. The DEW platform of the '05 Mustang is the same as the T-Bird and the Lincoln LS. I own a new 280 horse LS V8, and the car drives like it is on rails. Although, like my wife, it could use to lose a few pounds and get a makeover.

Take the LS chassis, body cues from the Falcon, stuff the 5.4 Lightning or cobra motor in it, and go scare the neighbors. They better do something, because the Cad CTS with the 'vette motor in it is going to eat their lunch.

1940 'Stang said:

Wow- that exchange was fun to watch.

Ford has what they need ready to go. The DEW platform of the '05 Mustang is the same as the T-Bird and the Lincoln LS. I own a new 280 horse LS V8, and the car drives like it is on rails. Although, like my wife, it could use to lose a few pounds and get a makeover.

Take the LS chassis, body cues from the Falcon, stuff the 5.4 Lightning or cobra motor in it, and go scare the neighbors. They better do something, because the Cad CTS with the 'vette motor in it is going to eat their lunch.

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I'm not sure I would post that were your wife can see it.
They said at least 6 months ago that the DEW platform was too expensive. So this new chassis is mustang specific for right now.

I then stand corrected.

I do however stand by my last paragraph, expense be damned.

Come to think of it, I stand by my "wife" comment, expense be damned.

I have yet to see a 300C or a Magnum on the street so I can't see them selling that well. I have seen a GTO and I think they look nice, but a little conservative.

1940 'Stang said:

Wow- that exchange was fun to watch.

Ford has what they need ready to go. The DEW platform of the '05 Mustang is the same as the T-Bird and the Lincoln LS. I own a new 280 horse LS V8, and the car drives like it is on rails. Although, like my wife, it could use to lose a few pounds and get a makeover.

Take the LS chassis, body cues from the Falcon, stuff the 5.4 Lightning or cobra motor in it, and go scare the neighbors. They better do something, because the Cad CTS with the 'vette motor in it is going to eat their lunch.

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The modular engines don't fit in the DEW platform without changing the front suspension that is why the new Mustang does not have the same front set-up as the LS. But I agree Ford needs to makeover the LS, I like those cars but they are a little dull looking.

95convt said:

I have yet to see a 300C or a Magnum on the street so I can't see them selling that well. I have seen a GTO and I think they look nice, but a little conservative.

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I think it all depends on your area. I have seen quite a few running around here. And someone I know actually owns one of the 300's.

Sw three Magnums in Plano alone yesterday.

I just say... watch the GTO and 300C, and if the Charger is a full size car watch it too. If they succeed, I have no doubt we'll see a Falcon/Fairlane to compete with them. But Ford would have to make a car at least as nice as the 300C and not do what GM did with the GTO, which means they'd have to actually plan a car and build it instead of just importing a car.

I think the RWD, big HP full-size sedan idea is being blown way out of proportion to its actual appeal to the marketplace.

If you had $35-45K to blow on a car, and the primary characteristics you're looking for is RWD, and big HP, why wouldn't you get a 2004 Cobra, or one of the new Corvettes instead? The handling and overall driving enjoyment would be much greater in one of those than in a sedan that has a truck engine and weighs as much as a truck (fully unloaded the 300C tips the scales at 4000+ lbs.).

On the other hand, if a five-seat, full-size sedan is a necessity, who's going to waste the money for the extra engine on a transportation appliance? Of course, there are those who have the extra $9K and will spend it to get an unnecessary engine package that doesn't do anything particularly special. Those people, however, are a tiny percentage of the car-buying marketplace, and they're also much more likely to be influenced to spend that $40K on a better-reputation brand name, like a BMW, Mercedes, or a Lexus.

Whoever said that the 300C is mostly about styling hit the nail on the head. The 300C is simply the "It" sedan right now. Like the PT Cruiser, the new Beetle and the Miata before it, its appeal is 75% marketing, hype, and styling, and 25% substance, and five years from now, I'd bet anything that its sales figures will look like its predecessors, too.

Don't get me wrong, the 300C is a nice-looking car, with a great engine. But it's also catering to an extremely small, extremely fickle market slice. There's a reason Honda and Toyota are kicking the bejeezus out of just about everyone else in the car market for the last 10 years - and it's not because they're making great RWD full-size sedans with big V8 engines.

Ford does have the right formula to do well again in the car market. Keep your iconic cars strong (Mustang, Thunderbird), sell millions of transportation appliances (Focus, 500), choose the right mind-share flagship (GT), and eventually, if Ford ever gets its quality issues behind them, they'll have a loyal enough customer base that they can turn a sizable profit in the car market segment.

stimmler said:

I think there is a definate market. Not all people can fit into a mustang. The extra inch you loose in a 'vert is enough so my head hits the celing. Then there is the issue of a 4dr vs 2dr for utility. Most people who can afford cars like these are older 40+ and have kids and need to be able to move the family around with them. Ford has made some sense and made more leg and head room in the 05, but you can't argue that an older guy wouldn't be wanting to pass off that 4 door as a value to his wife so that he could also get a performance engine. That was what the Taurus SHO was about in the early 90's. 220 hp was more hp than the mustang then, before there even was a cobra mustang. Ford would have scored big with the marauder if they would have had some balls and put an engine in it. Every other auto maker saw this and now we see a hemi in every dodge and a vette engine in every GM. No cobra engines anywhere though, someone has lost touch with their buyers.

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Except that so far the sales of the GTO have pretty poor. And I haven't heard that the hemi version of the 300 has been a runaway success. I'm sure it's selling. But I'm not hearing too many people say it's selling faster than dealers can stock them yet.

SadbutTrue said:

the only reason people complain about the GTO's styling specifically is because the GTO SHOULD be a much mroe styled car. Its a legendary muscle car, it should at least look the part. Had they named it anything else, no one would complain. It would jsut be a conservatively styled, powerful sedan. They brought this on themselves by calling it a GTO.

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I'm new to the board, though I couldn't help but chime in here. When Pontiac set out to redesign the GTO, they weren't applying the late '60s/early '70s streetfighter formula that the GTO Judge followed, subsequently carried-on by the Firebird. The new GTO was meant to apply the '64 formula- an understated, elegant Grand Tourer coupe. In this respect, I think that Pontiac got it right-- if you were to take the concept of the '64 GTO and trace it along that development progression for 40 years, I honestly believe it would look like something akin to the current 2004 model.

It boils down to this:

Restraint-- what Pontiac did correctly.

Distinction-- what Pontiac overlooked.

The GTO is subtle, elegant, and conservative... whilst looking like a mid-90's Grand Prix on steroids. I've heard people say that it looked like "an oversized Cavalier." It is an example of what happens when you follow a corporate design scheme too closely. I, myself, see a little bit of last-generation Camaro in it, though without that grotesque wedge profile in the hood.

The exterior of the GTO should not be made more edgy or obnoxious. 'Edgy' isn't what the original intent of the Grand Tourismo Omologato was about. If anything, the design should be 'distinctive.' For an exercise in example, let me use this pair of illustrations: an Infiniti G35 is 'distinctive.' 'Distinctive' means "I look very classy, but just boisterous enough to let you know my bite is much meaner than my bark." A Mazda RX-8 is 'edgy.' 'Edgy' means "Yah, I know you want a piece o' this!" Neither design philosophy is better than the other. The important part is CONTEXT. When designing a Grand Tourer coupe, like the GTO, aim for 'distinctive.' When designing a sports car for the tuner crowd, like the aim for 'edgy.'

If a brawny, boisterous car from GM is demanded by the consumer, Pontiac should re-do the Firebird (Requiescat Im Pace, ye Camaro, car of the mullet-wearing-wife-beater). Keep the current philosophy for the GTO intact. Keep the GTO onboard for folks who would otherwise look to BMW's 6 and Mercedes-Benz CLK. Bring back the Firebird, or beef up the Monte Carlo, for the V-8 brawlers.

SVTdriver said:

Except that so far the sales of the GTO have pretty poor...

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Yeah, you've been consistently drumming that tune throughout this thread. There are quite a few hurdles the GTO has to jump over before sales start to climb.

1) It is a RWD sports tourer... introduced in the WINTER. Not exactly a good season to start marketing that particular type of car. For comparison, sales of Mazda RX-8's and Nissan 350Z's took quite a dip between January and March as well.

2) There's only 18,000 of them to begin with. This equates to only a few per dealer nationwide. Thus, dealers will tack on "dealer added profit" stickers... boosting the price of the 6-MT GTO to almost $40K. When you only get 3 GTO's on your lot, you try to squeeze as much profit as humanly-possible from them.

3) Pontiac dealers. Have you ever tried to talk to one? They can't deal with enthusiasts. The ones I've talked to were much more accustomed to a kid looking at a Sunfire or 30-somethings feeling the first tinges of midlife crisis looking at a Vibe or Grand Am. Chevy dealers at least keep one "enthusiast" staff member on-hand, in case the customer starts turning an eye towards a Corvette.

4) Market niche. Folks typically looking at a $40K sports coupe will not likely pick Pontiac as their first choice. Daimler-Benz, BMW, Acura, and Lexus usually come first.

So, to use the GTO as an example of why Ford isn't putting more effort toward better RWD vehicles is somewhat out of context, and is really beginning to stale. Frankly, the number of 300's that have been driving down Chestnut St. here in Philly is absolutely staggering. They're everywhere. Dealers are having trouble keeping them in stock. Whether they're the V-8 equipped 300C's or the V-6 powered 300's is irrelevant-- there is enough 300's to prove the presence of an untapped market.

For further proof, you could also look to the fact that, for the first time in automotive history, Chrysler outsold Ford... after the introduction of the 300...

calypsocoral302 said:

Yeah, you've been consistently drumming that tune throughout this thread. There are quite a few hurdles the GTO has to jump over before sales start to climb.

1) It is a RWD sports tourer... introduced in the WINTER. Not exactly a good season to start marketing that particular type of car. For comparison, sales of Mazda RX-8's and Nissan 350Z's took quite a dip between January and March as well.

2) There's only 18,000 of them to begin with. This equates to only a few per dealer nationwide. Thus, dealers will tack on "dealer added profit" stickers... boosting the price of the 6-MT GTO to almost $40K. When you only get 3 GTO's on your lot, you try to squeeze as much profit as humanly-possible from them.

3) Pontiac dealers. Have you ever tried to talk to one? They can't deal with enthusiasts. The ones I've talked to were much more accustomed to a kid looking at a Sunfire or 30-somethings feeling the first tinges of midlife crisis looking at a Vibe or Grand Am. Chevy dealers at least keep one "enthusiast" staff member on-hand, in case the customer starts turning an eye towards a Corvette.

4) Market niche. Folks typically looking at a $40K sports coupe will not likely pick Pontiac as their first choice. Daimler-Benz, BMW, Acura, and Lexus usually come first.

So, to use the GTO as an example of why Ford isn't putting more effort toward better RWD vehicles is somewhat out of context, and is really beginning to stale. Frankly, the number of 300's that have been driving down Chestnut St. here in Philly is absolutely staggering. They're everywhere. Dealers are having trouble keeping them in stock. Whether they're the V-8 equipped 300C's or the V-6 powered 300's is irrelevant-- there is enough 300's to prove the presence of an untapped market.

For further proof, you could also look to the fact that, for the first time in automotive history, Chrysler outsold Ford... after the introduction of the 300...

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Ok I'm just going to make a few comments on this
1) If people stopped making excuses for it. I wouldn't have to bring reality back into it. But ok it's july now no more winter. Can you find info on the GTO sales going up? And if it is such a great success. Why are they talking redesign and upping hp this early in the sales?

2) You honestly think that a Ford dealer is any better at selling high hp cars than pontiac or any other brands. I just got a call today from the nearest dealer. Telling me they are finally taking orders for the 05. Funny thing the order bank has been open for what now, about a month?

3) how does it not matter how many are V6 300's? Those particular ones are not high hp RWD "(2.7-liter, 190-horsepower V6 engine matched to a four-speed automatic transmission. Chrysler prefers to call this powertrain "fuel-efficient." Given the Chrysler 300's curb weight of 3,700 pounds, we'd say it's underpowered, producing a lackadaisical zero-to-60 acceleration run in 10.7 pathetic seconds.)" So to say a high hp 500 or whatever sedan Ford would choose to use. Is completely relevant. As it may not sell as well as the V6 version. The 300 has style as well as 2 lower hp engines. Where as the GTO really doesn't. The marauder did (regular crown vic), but the marauder at least from what I have seen. Has not been considered a major success. I am also not arguing against a better RWD sedan. Merely arguing that a high hp RWD sedan has so not shown itself to be a real sales success. Unless you look at the 300 which has great styling to go along with the high hp engine. So unless Ford can come up with a real winner in the style department. Then it simply is not going to be competing with the 300. And from what I have seen of the new Ford sedans (The 500). They are not all that inspiring.