AFR 165 & 185 users... any issues w/ rocker arm positioning?

Cobra4B

Cobra4B

Founding Member
Oct 11, 2000
156
0
16
Virginia Beach, VA
#1
The 5.0 we have in our Panoz race car utilizes AFR 165s w/ Comp Pro Magnum rockers. Had some issues this weekend at VIR and pulled the valve cover to find the some of the rockers weren't even close to centered on the valve tip.

Speaking w/ Tony Mamo @ AFR this is apparently 100% normal and due to the repositioning of the valves for "more power".

Being as our motor is ues in a HPDE/TT/road racing setting this type of stuff is a bit more critical than a drag car or around town thumper. Anyone have any long term issues with these heads using the standard AFR guide-plates?

Looks like we have the following options:

1. Run it as is and possibly wear out the valve guides prematurely
2. Custom cut and re-weld the AFR guide plates
3. Get Isky adjsutable guide-plates
4. Get shaft mount roller-rockers

I'm new to Ford motors so this is all new to me... never had to deal with this w/ my LSX motors.

Thanks,
Brain
 

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#6
Something isnt right. Can you post a pic? AFAIK, the valve locations arent moved, and I've never heard of anyone with that problem either. Are all the rockers off? Make sure you didnt bend the pushrods?

BTW, it sounds like you talked to a salesman and not a tech guy :)
 
#7
I spoke with Tony Mamo... who owns AFR. The valves in the 165s are moved, he told me it's 100% normal to have the rocker arms "pidgeon toed" and that for a road race application I should run shaft mount rockers to correct the issue, or get adjustable guideplates.

Just trying to see if anyone else has this issue.
 
#8
Cobra4B said:
I spoke with Tony Mamo... who owns AFR. The valves in the 165s are moved, he told me it's 100% normal to have the rocker arms "pidgeon toed" and that for a road race application I should run shaft mount rockers to correct the issue, or get adjustable guideplates.

Just trying to see if anyone else has this issue.
Click to expand...

I can confirm it, I use a lot of AFR's and it is true.... I have not had an issue using a standard AFR guide plates on most street or race set-ups. I have used Isky adjustable plates as well. Are you hyd roller or solid? How much lash or preload?

I assume your seeing this ;)
 
#10
Rick 91GT said:
I can confirm it, I use a lot of AFR's and it is true.... I have not had an issue using a standard AFR guide plates on most street or race set-ups. I have used Isky adjustable plates as well. Are you hyd roller or solid? How much lash or preload?

I assume your seeing this ;)
Click to expand...
Yep that's it exactly... we're most likely going to go w/ Probe shaft mount to take care of it.
 
#11
tmoss said:
When I used them with 1.7 rockers, the pushrods bottomed out in the guide slots and they were noisy. I worked with and called Isky for almost a year about a run of guides that they were going to run .100" deeper slots in but it never happened so I gave up.
Click to expand...

I've modified them just in that way, PIA since they are hardened


Ive used the Probe Shafts nice pieces ;)
 
#12
I have the AFR 185's (1420's) with the Comp Cams Pro Magnum's already mounted and with the upgraded ARP studs...

The center to center I measured on my AFR guideplates is 1.773 inches..
for all 8 guideplates(within 0.003") I figured these are punched - so they should be fairly acurate(which measurement has confirmed)


The center to center between the studs are for cylinder #1 -> 1.779 +(0.006)
#2 -> 1.765 -(0.008)
#3 -> 1.785 +(0.012)
#4 -> 1.789 +(0.016)

Dimensions in brackets are compared to the center to center of guideplates above...

Now how can you have any type of comformity with inconsistent stud centers?
If Tony Mamo said this is "normal" I don't know what to say...

This means you need different guideplates to accomodate each cylinder.(nightmare)
If this is the case - AFR should provide these - not us! and number the guideplates!
Pigeon toed rockers are defenitely not normal - I don't care who says what!!
You will get side loading created at the valve which will wear out your guide very rapidly!!
You will not get any reasonable life what so ever unless you strictly race etc.(It's really not a good situation!)
I've seen some bad pictures here with real exceptional valve guide wear.
This could be your culprit! I'm ordering Isky guideplates as Jegs refused to help by saying my heads are over a year old so no warranty...they instructed to call AFR...
I just took the heads out of the box and mounted them on my DSS 331.(motor not installed yet and not fired up either!!)
Called AFR left a message for Jason - maybe he's on holidays but no answer yet...

I believe there is only two possibilities for this error 1) program error for CNC or 2)Clamping got loose etc..and the heads moved a bit...

Again, I'm gonna order the Isky adjustable guide plates...
The biggest problem that remains is to find out by how much each stud is out - one cannot assume that each is out by an equal amount as some pushrods contact the side of the guideplate while others are perfectly centered...

In an ideal world I would need the reference measurement from the end of the cylinder head to the first stud, then the second and so on etc...

If anyone has this - maybe they could chime in to help...

Even better AFR should take back the heads and send me some good ones - I could see a few thousandths of an inch but 0.016" of the mark and 0.024" between worst and best - this is not at all what I expected from AFR! I'm really dissapointed in them so far..

Signed

Frustrated
 
#16
Jegs told me I was out of luck...
AFR never got back to me after 2 messages..

After further investigation measuring the free play in the Magnum roller rocker's tip, and in the trunnion, and adjusting the guide plates and "splitting" the difference - I was able to get well within range on most cylinders(not at an extreme borderline) except three. The three are close to the border line or have just a few thou of left over clearance before the roller tip doesn't sit square. So I'm comfortable for now - but will monitor very closely...

My rockers are equally pigeon toed now if you will, they are also flat which is most important. Just not too "user friendly" if you will.

Be prepared to measure every individual rocker to tally up how much you are out, how much you can adjust for(catch), and what is left(out too much) - hopefully nothing...

Took me two days - just cause I checked and re-checked! I do believe we are in a world were you trust no one! All people want is your money!! These are not straight "bolt-ons" buyer beware!

Just hope they work like everyone says - anxious to see!
 
#18
WOW...
The exact problem I'm seeing with my AFR 165's....Pigeon toed.
My question is if you do go with the adjustible guideplates then the left to right centering of the roller will be off.
So which is worse?

Pigeon toe?
OR
Off center right to left on the roller if pigeon toe is fixed with adj guidplate?
 
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