Anti-freeze/coolant: what's the story?

SuperDave said:

I'm of the belief that all anti-freeze/coolant is basically the same. It is based on ethelyne-glychol (like brake fluid) and is marketed under a variety of trade-names i.e.: Prestone, Zerex, NAPA, etc.

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Basically true, at least in function. There are different formulas of antifreeze, like the ones for auluminum radiators.

SuperDave said:

Is there any KNOWN product that is superior for this protection?

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I've never used it but many swear by "Water Wetter". I belive what it does is reduce the inherent surface tension of water and therefore enhance the heat transfer.

If you are just looking at the cooling and corrosion resistance Water Wetter and water is suppose to be superior. However, Water Wetter has no anti-freeze properties.

Ive always used Prestone too, i thought that they were all pretty much the same

Well, there's propylene glycol out there too. One of my buddies ran it in his Suoer Street Outlaw drag car. I understand you put it in straight and it's boiling point is higher and freeze point is lower than ethylene glycol and it doesn't promote electrolysis, but in not sure if it lacks inhibitors or not. By the way, antifreeze doesn't break down and lose its cooling or anti freezing properties, the inhibitors break down.

From a flathead website, thanks to Rumble Seat:

DISTILLED WATER: Use only distilled water in a cooling system whether using straight water or mixing it with anti-freeze. All tap water contains impurities which attack cooling system metals.... especially aluminum because it’s so soft, but it will also attack brass/copper. When running water without anti-freeze, be sure to add a good rust inhibitor.

CHECKING COOLANT FOR RUST INHIBITORS AND THEIR CONDITION: As we all know, anti-freeze never loses its anti-freezing ability. It may get dirty, but it still has the same anti-freeze characteristics as when it was new. BUT the inhibitors last only a couple of years. The most common solution, and what the manufacturers want us to do, is to replace the anti-freeze. Why not just replenish the wore out inhibitors? Problem is how can to determine the inhibitors are gone? Remembering our old high school physics..... Whenever dissimilar metals are immersed in a liquid in motion, D-C voltage will result.... or something along these lines. This will cause softer metals (like aluminum, zinc, brass, and copper) to transfer to harder metals by electrolysis. Inhibitors prevent this by reducing or eliminating electrolysis. Determining the condition of inhibitors is done easily with a Volt-Ohm-Meter (VOM). A digital VOM is easier to use than an analog (has scales and a needle) for this test. Turn the function selector to D-C volts. You’ll be measuring voltages of less than 2 Volts so select a voltage of 5V or less. Hold one of the probes (either one) suspended in the coolant in the top radiator tank. Don’t let it contact any metal. Now ground the remaining probe on the metal of the radiator tank. Read the voltage on the VOM. When voltage exceeds 0.5 Volts DC, the inhibitors are no longer active. Adding a can of rust inhibitor is all that’s required. A voltage reading of 0.5 Volts DC and less show the inhibitors are still active and don’t need replenishing. Remember, anti-freeze never loses its anti-freeze capabilities...... it only looses its inhibitors.

RUST INHIBITORS: There are many brands and types of inhibitors on the market. The one I use is called “No Rosion” and is used by most of the serious collectors of rare and exotic cars (our flathead Fords are exotic?). Price in the year 2002 is in the $25 range for a half gallon (4 pints), but it is available in smaller sizes. One pint treats a 22 quart system and one treatment lasts 3 to 5 years. It’s red in color and is not sold over the counter to my knowledge, but is available from both Eastwood and Applied Chemical Specialties Inc.

Applied Chemical’s address is:
Applied Chemical Specialties Inc.,
PO Box 241597
Omaha, NE 68124 phone708)-797-1699

Dave, in the immortal words of my grandfather, "don't fix what ain't broke." If Prestone has been working well for you all these years, why change now?

Besides, I have to guess that Prestone has been keeping up with the times, and changing it's formula as new advents come out.

I would say, keep doing what your doing.

87

1320stang, thats some good info. you posted, thanks

Well, I too have always believed they are essentially the same, and I have used and occasionaly still do use Zerex, at least that's what I did the last time because I also did the flush and anti corrosion and what not, and the only brand they had that in was Zerex, so I figured I would stick with the same/same.

I usually prefer thougfh to buy that environmentally friendly stuff they have that won't hurt animals if they drink it, and what not. I can't seem to remember the name of it (Green something), but this was the first time in years I haven't used it.

I am confused about one thing I just read though: "By the way, antifreeze doesn't break down and lose its cooling or anti freezing properties, the inhibitors break down."

I didn't know antifreeze had any cooling properties? I always thought that it was a misconception and that it actually had a lower boiling point than plain ole water but we use it mostly for winter and corrosion protection only?

I'll tell ya one thing, I wish I was they guy that thought of marketing that convenient pre mixed stuff. Boy what a genious. Fill the bottle half way with water and sell it for the same price as 100%. Nice way to double your profits there, eh?

This is my understanding, antifreeze does have cooling properties, but they are not direct coolers. They raise the boiling temp and lower the freezing temp of water, so water won't boil and create air bubbles which will superheat in the radiator or block. As for different types, yes, all are made with ethylene-glycol, so basically the same. The difference is in the additives, it is my understanding that Prestone contains the most rust inhibitors and lubricants (for the waterpump). And of course, the Red and Green difference- Red contains no silicates so it is safe for alluminum parts, over time green will erode through alluminum. I will atest to the effectiveness of Redline's Water Wetter, when I used it it seemed to really help out while idling in traffic (though I did not have similar success with Royal Purple's Purple Ice- not swede-recommended).
A little info- if anyone didn't know... when Dex-cool first came out, and I'm not sure if they've fixed it, but the anti-corosion and lubricant additives actually cancelled each other out. This was especially bad is the 4.3L engines where water pump failures abounded.
And Pak, I agree with you on the genius idea of marketing the pre-mix stuff, but not all of it is the same price. We sell some cheapo stuff from a company called PEAK, 3.49 a bottle for pre mixed. Don't ask why, but I don't trust it myself...

The Swede

after water wetter, my car ran between 5 and 10 degrees cooler. i drained and added anti-freeze and water in october. come mid april i'll change back to water and water-wetter. it may be more frequent and costly than necessary, but i love my car and i love working on it, so i don't mind.

Well, I can remember back when anti-freeze was a buck or so for a gallon. My father owned a trucking company and we'd buy antifreeze by the 55 gallon drum. At that time there were 3 places in North America that made anti-freeze, and they made it for multiple labels. Yes, it's all the same stuff, may be processed a little different, or different additives, but its all the same, sorta like milk, you can get it from different places and sometimes it tastes a bit different, but its still milk. Anyways, within a week, two of the three had tragedies (I remember one had a fire) that shut them down and anti-freeze went up to like $5 a gallon, one guy back home bought a whole truckload (53' trailer) full of it at about a buck a gallon and sat on it for a little bit and started selling it at $4 and $5 a gallon. They finally got the other two plants fixed, but they had seen they could get more money for their product, so the price stayed up. One local entrepreneur built a machine that would recycle antifreeze with a bunch of filters, it even filtered out the coloring to the stuff so he had to add a dye to it and the other additives, but it was huge (size of a VW Bug footprint-wise, stood about 7' tall), built out of stainless, but you had to remove the antifreeze from the vehicle and you still have to flush the car. Other companies made smaller, portable machines on wheels that you just hooked up to the car and it did it all and was cheaper to boot.

I was looking at this topic the last two days because I have a BMW that must be Phosphate Free due to the Aluminum radiator. According to BMW. Two BMW Dealerships told me I could use either backing up the claims from Prestone and Peak. I figured they must be right cause it's on their website and if we incurred damages people would sue them because of acting on their web site.
Just Flush the previous one out really well was what the dealerships told me.
Q: Does Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant contain phosphates?
A: Some European automobile manufacturers request that a phosphate-free antifreeze be used in their vehicles. This issue is related to the extremely high mineral content of the water in Europe. If you were to mix an antifreeze that contained phosphates with the type of water they have in Europe, it may produce deposits that can settle in the cooling system and promote corrosion. However, in North America we do not have this type of water problem. Typical North American coolants have contained phosphates (which is part of the corrosion inhibitor package) for many years. Therefore, the question of phosphates is a non-issue here in North America. Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant is completely safe for use in both foreign and domestic vehicles. For those consumers who would feel more comfortable using a phosphate-free antifreeze, our Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant is phosphate, silicate, and borate free. This coolant uses a special chemistry and technology that extends the life of the corrosion inhibitor package so that it lasts for five years or 150,000 miles (whichever comes first), and is safe for all cars and light trucks (old or new). Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant has been approved by General Motors under their DEX-COOL® specifications and is compatible with other DEX-COOL® approved coolants.







From Peak
C. Why does my vehicle owner’s manual recommend a phosphate free antifreeze?
Some European car manufacturers recommend that phosphate free antifreeze be used in their vehicles. The reason is that the water in Europe has an extremely high mineral content. If you mixed an antifreeze containing phosphates, which are part of the corrosion inhibitor package, with the water they have in Europe, the phosphates in the antifreeze may “drop out” and form deposits in your cooling system that can lead to corrosion. However, this is not a major concern in North America, since our water is lower in mineral content, or softer, than European water. It is important to read your vehicle owner’s manual, as some European car manufacturers require a phosphate free antifreeze for warranty purposes. For these applications, Old World Industries offers PEAK® Extended Life Antifreeze and SIERRA®, the Safer Antifreeze.

PS
I personally havent noticed any benefit with water wetter in any of my 3 cars. and it's about $6 a bottle

I'm a Parts Mgr. at a Lincoln Mercury Dealer in Phila for 35 years. Years ago when anti-freeze prices were getting crazy, I decided to try and save my customers some money. Fords brand was too expensive, so I bought some no name brand cheaper. After a few weeks my counterman who has carried 2 gallons to the counter, thousands of time says this stuff feels lighter. We took it over to the UPS scale. It was 9.5lbs. We took a gallon of Ford anti-freeze and it was 11 lbs. I thought there must be a difference and we stopped using the cheap stuff. Oh Dave, the Ford parts catolog list them as expansion plugs. LOL RAY

SuperDave said:

Good and informative responses on this topic. In my applications I don't require anything exotic just simple protection from freeze-ups and protection from cooling system contaimnation and damage. My vehicles have done very well on Prestone and it isn't all that expensive when I buy it in volume.

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Well I run about 1/3 Prestone (good enuf for dad, ....) and 2/3 water AND add Redline Water Wetter. It consistently drops the temp about 10 degrees below what it is without the Redline, and it's still good to about 10 degrees (little prestone tester).

Any time Im worried about the cold, I hang a "trouble light" under the hood between the front of the block and the back of the radiator (its in a garage) and the heat from just a 60 watt bulb is enough to raise the temp in the engine compartment a few degrees.

Dave-

Pakrat said:

I didn't know antifreeze had any cooling properties? I always thought that it was a misconception and that it actually had a lower boiling point than plain ole water but we use it mostly for winter and corrosion protection only?

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A 50-50 mix of ethylene glycol has a specific heat of around 0.82 BTU/lb-*F while straight water is around 1.0. This difference, in effect, will make a given radiator 18% more "efficient" by running the 50-50 mix over water.

Frank

I've been reading about Evans NPG+ waterless coolant

http://www.evanscooling.com/catalog/C_npg1.htm

ever heard about it or used it ?

"....It was 9.5lbs. We took a gallon of Ford anti-freeze and it was 11 lbs....."

just curious about the weight differences ...

Some antifreeze now comes "premixed" so you dont have to add water - any chance the lighter antifreeze was the premixed stuff V.S. the Ford antifreeze only ???

what the heck would be the diff ?