Best Cleveland style heads?

BlueBossS197 · Mar 17, 2008

I'm looking to buy some good Cleveland/ aftermarket Cleveland heads that flow well. I am aware that the 4V cleve. heads flow fairly well with a mild port job. My question, is there anything better ported/non-ported that are better than the factory 4v heads either ported/non-ported? I am hoping to keep Yates heads out as they are fairly expensive. I know Kaase has the Aussie style "3V" heads, but that is the only aftermarket style I am aware of. Hopefully there is something better! Thanks in advance for any input!

Rusty67 · Mar 17, 2008

What are your goals for the car ? The 2v vs 4v heads will do different things better.

D.Hearne · Mar 17, 2008

Edelbrock's making Cleveland heads now too.

Hack · Mar 17, 2008

CHI makes the heads that won several Engine Masters competitions and did well even through several rule changes. CHI 3V are the best for overall power, but they require a specific intake to match. CHI also offers 2V and 4V heads to match up with your existing intake/exhaust if that's what you want. I think their prices are good for a low volume and very high quality piece.

There are other manufacturers of heads, but IMO CHI is the best. However, if you want cheap, just slap on either 4V closed chamber or 2V "aussie" closed chamber cast iron heads. They don't need any work at all to beat many other small block heads, so they are a bargain for what you get.

BlueBossS197 · Mar 17, 2008

Rusty67 said:
What are your goals for the car ? The 2v vs 4v heads will do different things better.

Well, my car is a 96 GT, but I came here for pushrod knowledge. But my goals for this car are to make it a road race car with a good breathing, high revving engine. I would like to take a Cleveland 4 bolt main block and clean it up and stuff a speed-o-motive 408 stroker kit in there with custom pistons to fit whatever head I get. I want to make this motor rev to around 8000 or if possible on a 408, higher than that. But the 408 may limit my goals. I want this motor to make not as much, but similar power to the Roush NASCAR motors i.e. a good 650-700 rwhp. If there is anything else I left out, let me know. I am not the most knowledgeable person about motors, but know just about as much as the average gearhead lol. So just any input or contructive criticism is welcome! Thanks.

180 Out · Mar 17, 2008

News flash: Airflow Dynamics, aka, AFD, is just about to realease three new alloy heads for the Clevo. Here's the AFD web site, although these new products are not up on the web site yet. Here's a post from last Thursday from AFD Dave himself to the Cleveland Forum:

Hi Guys,
Reading this post,I thought I should clear up that the upgraded heads also have a new port design,this is were the bulk of the increases come from,they are more efficient than before and the chambers are just like before with some minor revisions to help the burn and unshroud the valve a touch more.
I am very happy with the early testing of this head for street applications.Don't ask me to post dyno results,they were not done for power testing,it made more power easier with less fuel.The new D port exhaust design helped that alot.

I will now have 3 port designs,with a high port under development.

2V - 200cc 310cfm
4VS - 220cc 345cfm
4VR - 245cc 360cfm

We have invested a bunch of money remaking our tooling,(hign production steel tooling)which takes a fair bit of labour cost from it,this will result in a reduced price aswell.Edelbrock competitive.
The old tooling (which is still fine) will be remodelled into a high port race head that I am developing at the moment.don't ask when it will be ready for sale,these things take time,just like the manifolds.they are coming too.
(there is no info on our website about this,or even the new upgrades.A new site is being done and that will go up just before we release the heads.)

The part about the price being competitive with Edelbrock: the Edelbrock Cleveland heads are about $1,980 a pair assembled, $1,400 bare, at Summit. BTW, most Cleveland guys say save your money rather than buy Edelbrocks. They flow about the same as a ported iron 2v head from 38 years ago, and not as well as ported 4v iron heads.

Regarding that 8000 rpm target, I don't think you'll make it with a 408. But if that's what you want and you also want it to hold up under road race (rather than drag strip) use, you should plan on starting with an aftermarket block. That means a Windsor block, from Dart or World Products. You can put Cleveland heads on a Windsor block without a lot of trouble, so that's not a problem. It is pricey, though, about $2000 for the bare casting. (There is also an aftermarket Cleveland block (9.2" deck height, dry intake) that's 6-12 months from production.)

You will then need a forged crank, preferably non-twist, or a billet crank, and the best H-beam rods you can find. You will also need a pretty wild cam, pretty much non-streetable.

And you will never get 650-700 all-motor hp at the wheels out of 408 ci. McKeown Motorsports Enterprises is offering a 427 ci Clevor with CHI heads that claims 650-675 streetable hp at the flywheel and costs about $12,000. But 650 hp at the wheels requires more than 800 hp at the flywheel. On the other hand, you can go to 454 ci with the Dart or World blocks. If you can get the same 1.5 hp/ci that MME gets with its crate Clevor, that would put you at 680-700 flywheel hp, which would be about 550 rwhp.

So go for the gold, that would be great! But there's a reason those Cup cars run as good as they do, actually two reasons. The first is money and the second is they're strictly race-only.

bnickel · Mar 17, 2008

i think the e'brock heads are getting a bad rap because of the flow numbers, but they flow a lor more "under the curve" and the port velocity is supposed to be excellent with them. i would not hesitate to run them on a street or mild race motor but for an 8k rpm 408 i'd probably go with the CHI heads

180 Out · Mar 18, 2008

Regarding the Cup engines, I was reading my March '08 Hot Rod magazine on the way to work this morning, turned the page and there was a big writeup on the new Chevy "R07" Cup car engine. 358 ci, 12:1 CR, max bore per rule of 4.185", 800-850 hp. Read all about it here, and you will see how futile it is to hope to duplicate that 800-850 hp output in an all-motor shade tree stock block engine capable of lasting more than a couple dyno pulls.

Of interest to Fordnatics is that the layout looks for all the world to be essentially identical to the 1970 Cleveland. In this pic, below, notice the cast-in timing set housing, the front-mounted distributor (which may very well be an MSD 335/385 Ford p/n), the dry intake manifold, the intake/exhaust patterns (i.e., the Ford-like i-e-i-e-i-e-i-e, not the Gen I, Gen II SBC's e-i-i-e-e-i-i-e), and the splayed and canted valves:

mustangbrad · Mar 18, 2008

I thought the exact same thing when I saw the new Chevy Nascar motor. I still don't understand why Nascar restricts the use of modern power plants IE Modular, LSX, Hemi, & I Force (or what ever Toyota uses for a V8).

bnickel · Mar 18, 2008

mustangbrad said:
I thought the exact same thing when I saw the new Chevy Nascar motor. I still don't understand why Nascar restricts the use of modern power plants IE Modular, LSX, Hemi, & I Force (or what ever Toyota uses for a V8).

they restrict those engine because they are too exotic and not "stock" enough......go figure, huh?

180 Out · Mar 18, 2008

bnickel said:
they restrict those engine because they are too exotic and not "stock" enough......go figure, huh?

I wonder if it's because 800-850 hp stock block engines would be such hand grenades they'd never be able to show the green between all the oil slick cleanups.

brianj5600 · Mar 18, 2008

Reliability would not be an issue. The would do it like they did in the good ole days. Build enough for the street to make parts legal for racing. Stock Car racing has become spec car racing. They have limits on key measurements and all the manufacturers will have engines that fit inside that box. There will be little difference in any engine once Ford gets their redesign out.

Hack · Mar 18, 2008

The Cleveland style canted valve engine is pretty hard to beat. It's possible the right design of OHC V8 could do it, but Ford would have to redesign because the current mod motors would not make it.

I'd like to see a real hemi engine try to keep up! The hemi combustion chamber just isn't as good as a Cleveland style.

I agree that it would be great if the manufacturers were allowed to compete in the old way and the cars had to be production vehicles.

Restrictor plates really bug me too - it's a way to reduce the advantage of a superior engine design...

BlueBossS197 · Mar 18, 2008

180 Out said:
News flash: Airflow Dynamics, aka, AFD, is just about to realease three new alloy heads for the Clevo. Here's the AFD web site, although these new products are not up on the web site yet. Here's a post from last Thursday from AFD Dave himself to the Cleveland Forum:

The part about the price being competitive with Edelbrock: the Edelbrock Cleveland heads are about $1,980 a pair assembled, $1,400 bare, at Summit. BTW, most Cleveland guys say save your money rather than buy Edelbrocks. They flow about the same as a ported iron 2v head from 38 years ago, and not as well as ported 4v iron heads.

Regarding that 8000 rpm target, I don't think you'll make it with a 408. But if that's what you want and you also want it to hold up under road race (rather than drag strip) use, you should plan on starting with an aftermarket block. That means a Windsor block, from Dart or World Products. You can put Cleveland heads on a Windsor block without a lot of trouble, so that's not a problem. It is pricey, though, about $2000 for the bare casting. (There is also an aftermarket Cleveland block (9.2" deck height, dry intake) that's 6-12 months from production.)

You will then need a forged crank, preferably non-twist, or a billet crank, and the best H-beam rods you can find. You will also need a pretty wild cam, pretty much non-streetable.

And you will never get 650-700 all-motor hp at the wheels out of 408 ci. McKeown Motorsports Enterprises is offering a 427 ci Clevor with CHI heads that claims 650-675 streetable hp at the flywheel and costs about $12,000. But 650 hp at the wheels requires more than 800 hp at the flywheel. On the other hand, you can go to 454 ci with the Dart or World blocks. If you can get the same 1.5 hp/ci that MME gets with its crate Clevor, that would put you at 680-700 flywheel hp, which would be about 550 rwhp.

So go for the gold, that would be great! But there's a reason those Cup cars run as good as they do, actually two reasons. The first is money and the second is they're strictly race-only.

I was thinking that the 408 would be troublesome because of the rod length. But as far as the cam goes, yeah I was thinking a nice custom grind from comp. either billet I beams or h beams would be the way to go.

The CHI heads seem like the way to go. I will definitely keep in mind the cleveland guy you speak of.

Now I hear conflicting things about the Aussie 4 bolt block
is much stronger than the american blocks. Is this a possible alternative to the aftermarket blocks?

As far as crank goes, I don't know what company to use. I'm thinking probe off the top of my head with maybe a scat right behind that. Any suggestions?

mustangbrad · Mar 19, 2008

I can recommend Jim Woods @ Fordstrokers.com for your stroker kit. He sells all of the Coast High Performance (Probe) stuff and has great customer service. If you are going to go with a custom cam then I HIGHLY recommend talking to Jay Allen @ Camshaft Innovations before making any decisions, he is a Ford Guru. He can also answer any and all of your other questions aswell.

mikethebike · Mar 19, 2008

What cid are you planning? If you are not going to go 400 cid or better you will find the 2v heads work better on a street car. The Cleveland 4v head had a 2.23 intake and the 426 HEMI was only 2.25. The rectangular port (425/435 hp) 427 Chevy was 2.19 (If memory serves me well). See my point?
The Cleveland conversions for SBF's back in the 70's/80's were for 2v heads.

mikethebike · Mar 19, 2008

180 Out said:
Regarding the Cup engines, I was reading my March '08 Hot Rod magazine on the way to work this morning, turned the page and there was a big writeup on the new Chevy "R07" Cup car engine. 358 ci, 12:1 CR, max bore per rule of 4.185", 800-850 hp. Read all about it here, and you will see how futile it is to hope to duplicate that 800-850 hp output in an all-motor shade tree stock block engine capable of lasting more than a couple dyno pulls.

Of interest to Fordnatics is that the layout looks for all the world to be essentially identical to the 1970 Cleveland. In this pic, below, notice the cast-in timing set housing, the front-mounted distributor (which may very well be an MSD 335/385 Ford p/n), the dry intake manifold, the intake/exhaust patterns (i.e., the Ford-like i-e-i-e-i-e-i-e, not the Gen I, Gen II SBC's e-i-i-e-e-i-i-e), and the splayed and canted valves:

Just to piss-off all you died-in-the-wool Ford guys.....The 1964 Chevy 'mystery-motor' and the 1965 396/425 hp Corvette motor cylinder head canted valve design was copied by Ford and announced to the public in late 1968 as the 'Cleveland'.

mikethebike · Mar 19, 2008

[

And you will never get 650-700 all-motor hp at the wheels out of 408 ci. McKeown Motorsports Enterprises is offering a 427 ci Clevor with CHI heads that claims 650-675 streetable hp at the flywheel and costs about $12,000. But 650 hp at the wheels requires more than 800 hp at the flywheel. On the other hand, you can go to 454 ci with the Dart or World blocks. If you can get the same 1.5 hp/ci that MME gets with its crate Clevor, that would put you at 680-700 flywheel hp, which would be about 550 rwhp.

There is a Pantera here with an Elliott Cleveland motor whose owner would argue that point with you. Also, if the 9" takes 5-7% of your power, the transmission 3% how does that equal a 150 hp loss in an 800 hp motor?

BlueBossS197 · Mar 20, 2008

mikethebike said:
What cid are you planning? If you are not going to go 400 cid or better you will find the 2v heads work better on a street car. The Cleveland 4v head had a 2.23 intake and the 426 HEMI was only 2.25. The rectangular port (425/435 hp) 427 Chevy was 2.19 (If memory serves me well). See my point?
The Cleveland conversions for SBF's back in the 70's/80's were for 2v heads.

I'm not sure yet on displacement, but i will for sure be using this motor for track use. So better flow for sure where heads are concerned.

mikethebike · Mar 20, 2008

BlueBossS197 said:
I'm not sure yet on displacement, but i will for sure be using this motor for track use. So better flow for sure where heads are concerned.

In that case I would just go to the source.....Ernie Elliott. I know of no one who can build a 'c' engine with more long term reliable h/p than he can. If you are looking for a drag motor.....Bob Glidden.
Back when Elliott was allowed to run the 'c' motor they were getting BOSS blocks from Austraila and if you check they NEVER granaded an engine. I also believe that NHRA went to lthe 500 cid/2000lb Pro-Stock combo for the sole purpose of stopping Glidden. Didn't work, he did it again.
One of the best SBC engine builders I know who hates all things Ford said Glidden had his own private laws of physics and nobody else was allowed to use them. Pretty good compliment coming from Dan Perrin. He didn't hand those out very often.

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