Calling all tech wizards, here's a doozy....
- Thread starter DREDD_LX93
- Start date
liljoe07
5 Year Member
millhouse
Founding Member
BlackGT89
Member
Another good possibility... Maybe the original poster can give more details leading up to the problem ?
Check out this website, describes how to check for TC slack. Not 5.0 specific, but it's worth a look. Timing Chain Slack Test
Sure, I posted the history of this problem yesterday, here's the gist of it:
I'm going to play with the timing a little more, and I'll look at the timing chain link you sent. Thanks!
This car died on my while I was driving a few months ago.
I then replaced the fuel-filter, and it worked fine for a few days, then I started having trouble starting it, then it completely died. Over time, I've replaced the following:
1. Fuel pump
2. Fuel pump relay
3. Distributor (brand new MSD Pro Billet 5.0)
4. Spark plugs, wires, coil
5. ECM Relay
6. ECM (got a used one from ebay)
At first, it turns out that the injectors weren't pulsing because my ECM was bad. As soon as I connected the new ECM, the injectors fired, and I was able to start it, but after 30 seconds, it bogged and then died again.
I then thought my timing might be off, so I moved the rotor to where I though it should be, and when I turned the key and cranked it, there was a loud pop, and blue smoke came out of my cold-air filter, and since then, it doesn't turn back on. I noticed that some of the air filter element was burnt and it smelled as much.
Since then, a mechanic came over, we reset the timing manually by pointing the rotor at #1 spark plug when engine was at 0 deg TDC, but still, no start.
I've replaced every critical electrical component I can think of, and I know for sure it's not a fuel issue, so I'm at my wits end as to what it could be. Last I heard, gas was very flammableso if there is spark coming out of my spark plug, and it's getting sprayed with gas, I should see some action.
I'm going to play with the timing a little more, and I'll look at the timing chain link you sent. Thanks!
millhouse
Founding Member
You need to rotate the engine to find #1 TDC WITHOUT using the harmonic balacer. You have already commented that you previously had someone stab the dizzy while reading the balancer...and then you come back and say the dizzy is now pointing at 8? Grab a long screwdriver and MANUALLY rotate the engine over until #1 reaches TDC. Make sure the driver doesn't bind, but rather slides out of the cyl when the piston contacts it. If the balancer isn't close, it's spun.
My guess is that you fixed the problem...but because the balancer is spun (hypothetical), when you went to re-time the ignition everything is WAY off.
My guess is that you fixed the problem...but because the balancer is spun (hypothetical), when you went to re-time the ignition everything is WAY off.
millhouse
Founding Member
The stock balancer has an inner and outer ring separated by some sort of polymer or rubber layer. With age, the rubber wears out and allows the outer ring to spin. This can go years without knowing. It's not until you either; remove the balancer and inspect it or attempt to set the base timing and wonder why the damn car won't start all of a sudden that you find out.
I'm not saying to replace the balancer just because...but it sure sounds similar to the symptoms.
IT TURNED ON!!!!! IT TURNED ON!!!!!! The Monster LIIIIIIIIIIIVESSSSSSS!!!!! HAHA!!!
It was the timing all along!!! I played with it some more by moving the rotor a little bit (you will recall that yesterday I had reset the rotor and it had started kicking when it would turn over but not turn on all the way) and after a couple of tries, it ROARED to life!
It's idling pretty rough, I still need to set the timing just right with a timing light, but FINALLY, it turned on.
So, to recap, here's what happened to my car from the moment it first died a few months ago:
1. The original culprit for it dying out of the blue was the computer. This was confirmed from verifying that there was fuel at the rail, but the injectors were not firing at all (with a noid light), even though there was spark. Also, when the computer was dead, if I turned the ignition on, the fuel pump would not stop priming. It would stay on. When I installed the new (used) computer, the fuel pump primed just right and the injectors were receiving pulse.
2. During the process of finding out what the cause was of it not starting (before I got the computer mentioned above), one of the suspects was the stator sensor in the dizzy. Since it's a pain to replace, and I've got big plans for this car, I went ahead and got an MSD Pro Billet 5.0 dizzy (looks very nice!). I followed (at least I thought I did) the instructions to the letter, marking where the rotor was and all that, but I must've moved it more than what was acceptable. That's why, after I got the computer and cranked it, it turned on, but then turned off after 30 seconds.
3. Since it had turned on and then off, I figured it was the timing that was off. I moved the rotor some more, and really messed it up this time, as after I cranked it again, there was a loud pop and it turned on no more.
4. I finally learned how to reset the timing manually and after several tries, it has turned on. Now, I just need to calibrate the timing with a timing gun.
Lesson: Scour the forums, ask a lot of questions, talk to mechanics or other people more experienced than you, invest in good diagnostic tools (test lights, noid lights, voltmeters, etc.)
Do NOT start throwing parts at your car willy-nilly. I don't feel so bad about all the other parts I spent money on; like I said, I've got big plans for this car and all the parts I replaced were original, so they were bound to break down eventually, but I definitely could've waited a bit longer to replace them. Now I'm stuck with some hefty credit-card bills I'll be spending the next few months paying off.
So much for that paint-job and wheel/tire combo I was thinking of getting
But hearing that 302 roar.....beautiful!!
Thanks to everyone who helped with this problem. This is the best Mustang forum I've found yet
It was the timing all along!!! I played with it some more by moving the rotor a little bit (you will recall that yesterday I had reset the rotor and it had started kicking when it would turn over but not turn on all the way) and after a couple of tries, it ROARED to life!
It's idling pretty rough, I still need to set the timing just right with a timing light, but FINALLY, it turned on.
So, to recap, here's what happened to my car from the moment it first died a few months ago:
1. The original culprit for it dying out of the blue was the computer. This was confirmed from verifying that there was fuel at the rail, but the injectors were not firing at all (with a noid light), even though there was spark. Also, when the computer was dead, if I turned the ignition on, the fuel pump would not stop priming. It would stay on. When I installed the new (used) computer, the fuel pump primed just right and the injectors were receiving pulse.
2. During the process of finding out what the cause was of it not starting (before I got the computer mentioned above), one of the suspects was the stator sensor in the dizzy. Since it's a pain to replace, and I've got big plans for this car, I went ahead and got an MSD Pro Billet 5.0 dizzy (looks very nice!). I followed (at least I thought I did) the instructions to the letter, marking where the rotor was and all that, but I must've moved it more than what was acceptable. That's why, after I got the computer and cranked it, it turned on, but then turned off after 30 seconds.
3. Since it had turned on and then off, I figured it was the timing that was off. I moved the rotor some more, and really messed it up this time, as after I cranked it again, there was a loud pop and it turned on no more.
4. I finally learned how to reset the timing manually and after several tries, it has turned on. Now, I just need to calibrate the timing with a timing gun.
Lesson: Scour the forums, ask a lot of questions, talk to mechanics or other people more experienced than you, invest in good diagnostic tools (test lights, noid lights, voltmeters, etc.)
Do NOT start throwing parts at your car willy-nilly. I don't feel so bad about all the other parts I spent money on; like I said, I've got big plans for this car and all the parts I replaced were original, so they were bound to break down eventually, but I definitely could've waited a bit longer to replace them. Now I'm stuck with some hefty credit-card bills I'll be spending the next few months paying off.
So much for that paint-job and wheel/tire combo I was thinking of getting
But hearing that 302 roar.....beautiful!!
Thanks to everyone who helped with this problem. This is the best Mustang forum I've found yet
liljoe07
5 Year Member
BlackGT89
Member
Hey guys, so I guess this saga is not completely over yet. I've got another little problem. Here goes....
So I was able to turn the car back on and I just got done setting the timing to 14 degrees (it's idling at 1500 rpm though, seems kinda high, and it'll drop and surge back up every 20 seconds).
But, when I turn it off, and put the SPOUT connector back on, it won't turn on anymore, it just cranks over and over.
What could be the problem? I read in another forum from a user who had the same problem, and it turned out to be his MAF sensor. Could this be it? Are there any other culprits for this little problem?
To recap: With the SPOUT connector removed, it turns on (and idles a bit high), but with the SPOUT connecter attached, it will not turn on. What could be causing this?
Thanks again for all the help!
So I was able to turn the car back on and I just got done setting the timing to 14 degrees (it's idling at 1500 rpm though, seems kinda high, and it'll drop and surge back up every 20 seconds).
But, when I turn it off, and put the SPOUT connector back on, it won't turn on anymore, it just cranks over and over.
What could be the problem? I read in another forum from a user who had the same problem, and it turned out to be his MAF sensor. Could this be it? Are there any other culprits for this little problem?
To recap: With the SPOUT connector removed, it turns on (and idles a bit high), but with the SPOUT connecter attached, it will not turn on. What could be causing this?
Thanks again for all the help!
castine917
Member
You're back in the Timing department again.
When the SPOUT is disconnected, the computer cannot provide spark advance. In this condition, the engine timing will be running on your base timing...which should be set to 10 BTDC. Unless your cam was degreed by the engine builder and/or you have a custom chip in your EEC, the standard EEC was programmed with a base timing of 10.
I don't see how timing and MAF functions are related...as it relates to your issues.
As mentioned earlier, older timing chains and/or crank dampers can slip. You could probably find a used damper on Craig's list or eBay relatively cheap. Inspecting for timing chain slippage will require more effort as you'll need to pull water pump and timing cover to view/confirm that the crank & cam markers match up. Prepare to replace all gaskets.
Again... in the absence of other suggestions, you'll want to ensure you do not have mechanical problems prior to the consideration that the ECU/EEC has been compromised.
Best regards,
-D
When the SPOUT is disconnected, the computer cannot provide spark advance. In this condition, the engine timing will be running on your base timing...which should be set to 10 BTDC. Unless your cam was degreed by the engine builder and/or you have a custom chip in your EEC, the standard EEC was programmed with a base timing of 10.
I don't see how timing and MAF functions are related...as it relates to your issues.
As mentioned earlier, older timing chains and/or crank dampers can slip. You could probably find a used damper on Craig's list or eBay relatively cheap. Inspecting for timing chain slippage will require more effort as you'll need to pull water pump and timing cover to view/confirm that the crank & cam markers match up. Prepare to replace all gaskets.
Again... in the absence of other suggestions, you'll want to ensure you do not have mechanical problems prior to the consideration that the ECU/EEC has been compromised.
Best regards,
-D
Hi, I haven't had a chance to test this out but I've got some questions...
So I'm supposed to reset the timing back to 10 deg BTDC with the SPOUT disconnected, THEN turn the car off, THEN connect the SPOUT, THEN turn it back on?
I'd heard that you could advance the timing to 13-14 degress BTDC for better performance, so since I was setting the timing for it, I figured I'd go ahead and do that. But you're saying first I have to set it to factory settings?
So I'm supposed to reset the timing back to 10 deg BTDC with the SPOUT disconnected, THEN turn the car off, THEN connect the SPOUT, THEN turn it back on?
I'd heard that you could advance the timing to 13-14 degress BTDC for better performance, so since I was setting the timing for it, I figured I'd go ahead and do that. But you're saying first I have to set it to factory settings?
liljoe07
5 Year Member
Faulty TFI can cause this, Faulty computer, Faulty SPOUT circuit(usually grounded some how). Lots of varibles.
Ok, I set the timing back to 10 deg BTDC, but after tightening the dist, I took another reading, and it had jumped to 14 deg. Is that normal?
Also, I plugged the SPOUT connector back on while the engine was running, and the idle evened out, but again, I cannot turn it on with the SPOUT connected.
Can someone please tell me the order that I need to follow when setting the timing?
Here's what I have so far:
With the engine off:
1. Remove SPOUT connector
2. Plug timing light to battery and #1 spark plug
3. Loosen dist. hold-down bolt.
Turn engine on, then:
1. Activate timing light to get a reading.
2. Adjust timing by moving dist. clockwise
3. Once you've set the timing, turn engine off
With engine off:
1. Plug SPOUT connector back on
2. Turn engine back on.
Is this correct? Am I missing anything here?
Also, I plugged the SPOUT connector back on while the engine was running, and the idle evened out, but again, I cannot turn it on with the SPOUT connected.
Can someone please tell me the order that I need to follow when setting the timing?
Here's what I have so far:
With the engine off:
1. Remove SPOUT connector
2. Plug timing light to battery and #1 spark plug
3. Loosen dist. hold-down bolt.
Turn engine on, then:
1. Activate timing light to get a reading.
2. Adjust timing by moving dist. clockwise
3. Once you've set the timing, turn engine off
With engine off:
1. Plug SPOUT connector back on
2. Turn engine back on.
Is this correct? Am I missing anything here?
You're following general steps fine...I'll attempt to simply...
#1- With engine running, you can disconnect the SPOUT
Yes...the idle will drop and not seem smooth.
Does the engine continue to run ?
#2 - Adjusting dizzy, set timing to 10BTDC.
#3 - Plug SPOUT back in
Idle may increase and the timing could very well change as the computer is now
providing timing advance.
*************************
I don't quite understand the purpose of stopping the engine after setting base timing and plugging in SPOUT. I have done this many times without stopping the engine at all.
#1- With engine running, you can disconnect the SPOUT
Yes...the idle will drop and not seem smooth.
Does the engine continue to run ?
#2 - Adjusting dizzy, set timing to 10BTDC.
#3 - Plug SPOUT back in
Idle may increase and the timing could very well change as the computer is now
providing timing advance.
*************************
I don't quite understand the purpose of stopping the engine after setting base timing and plugging in SPOUT. I have done this many times without stopping the engine at all.
Ok guys, here's where I'm at, and I need some help....
So I manage to turn the car on with the SPOUT disconnected to set the timing.
It turns on and idles between 1K-1.5K RPM. I then turn the dist until it reaches 10 deg btdc.
Then I put the SPOUT back on while it is still running.
But the last few times I've done this, after about 10-15 mins, it begins to bog down until it dies.
Also, when it's on, if I push the gas (thereby opening the throttle), instead of revving up, it bogs down, like it's about to die. What in the world could be causing this?
So I manage to turn the car on with the SPOUT disconnected to set the timing.
It turns on and idles between 1K-1.5K RPM. I then turn the dist until it reaches 10 deg btdc.
Then I put the SPOUT back on while it is still running.
But the last few times I've done this, after about 10-15 mins, it begins to bog down until it dies.
Also, when it's on, if I push the gas (thereby opening the throttle), instead of revving up, it bogs down, like it's about to die. What in the world could be causing this?
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