Camaro vs New GT vs Terminator vs New Wrangler

[300bhp/ton]

What would you do?


Ok here’s a dilemma I’ve been pondering for several months.

Basically I’m itching to spend some money on a new vehicle or setup but don’t know what to do.

Currently I have a 2000 Ls1 Camaro z/28 auto. Pretty stock just running a few bolts ons (exhaust and handling mods). I really love the car, I like the way it drives, the way it sounds and the way it looks.

But I’m not the biggest fan of auto’s and would love a manual/stick shift. Also it would be nice to own something newer.

Here are some options:

1. New Mustang GT

Ever since I saw pics of the s197 I fell in love with the car. It is without doubt one of the best looking cars in the past 20 years. Plus I like the interior and the way it drives.

And I’ve always been an avid Mustang fan and so far not managed to own one.

Bonus points:

-Would be brand new and shiny
-A local dealer imports to the UK and sells them
-Love the look & status of the car

DOWNERS:

-Cost, it’s the most expensive option at about £25,000 and would mean no money for mods for a while except maybe a catback.
-Performance, while I know the s197 runs well there is no denying it has less HP/torque than my z/28 and would probably be slightly slower in all round performance.

Would I end up being slightly disappointed by swapping my z/28 for a s197???

I really want to say no. But part of me isn’t 100% convinced.


2. Terminator (2003/4)


Simply an awesome car. Totally BAD ASS looks and performance to match.

DOWNERS:

-Would only be slightly newer than current z/28
-Still expensive and very hard to find in the UK
-Dynamically not as good a platform as the s197


3. New Jeep Wrangler CRD

While I love muscle cars and speed I will be honest and say off roading is a BIG interest for me and in the UK using a 4x4 is far more practical than a muscle car for daily driving.

In the UK we have the new diesel Wrangler, I’ve driven it and I really like it. And it would suit much that I want to use it for. It would also only cost about £18,000 to buy new.

DOWNERS:

-Not fast
-They loose money like a stone sinking in water
-Jeep UK are idiots and don’t really sell the model I would ideally want


4. Mod the Camaro

Lastly I could keep the Camaro and spend £5000-8000 on it in mods. New paint, suspension, brakes, wheels, cam, heads, torque converter, gears, etc.

It would make a pretty bas ass car (450rwhp+) that would handle and stop with the best of them. Evidently this is the cheapest option but…..

DOWNERS:

-Still automatic
-not new and shiny
-not a Mustang



It would be nice to buy a BRAND new car as I’ve never had the opportunity before. And I really do like the current Mustang GT, I just don’t want to get 6 months down the line and then regret the buy.

The Terminator is appealing, but will be a lot more hassle to buy. As it will require a trip to the US to buy the car, then arrange to ship it to the UK and register it and make it road legal. A new GT I can simply buy off the show room floor. Also while the Terminator kicks ass I can’t help feeling as though it would be like buying an old car.


Sorry for so long. But what do you guys think?

Camaro vs New GT vs Terminator vs New Wrangler

 

[rpburnette]

Here is my personal opinion.

Don't buy the 03/04 Cobra. For you it sounds like a it will be a lot of trouble.

I would suggest modding your current car and buying a used jeep. If you really are serious about offroadng than go get a cheap jeep for a few thousand and mod it to fit your needs. If you can find one, stick with the late 70's and early 80's. With the money you spend on one new vehicle, you could have two modded vehicles, the downside they won't be new. I think you will be dissapointed with a new Mustang especially since you won't have any money leftover to mod it.

Good luck

 

[ranger04]

Get the mustang, it's more than just a car, it's a way of life. Even if you don't have money for mods right a way, it's plenty fast stock. Get one with a manual trans, throw in a set of 4:10 gears and you'll have a lot of fun. Bone stock, if you dump the clutch it's easy to loose control, it has that much power and torque. There's a sense of pride just driving a mustang.
As for the jeep, I'm a jeep fan myself, however, these new wranglers look so generic, they have a minivan V-6. Real jeeps have the 4.0 straight 6, or at least the 258. Chrysler has managed to ruin the new wrangler, it looks plastic and cheap. The mustang looks clasic, the newer they are, the older they look, thier just awesome. Also thanks for the help in Iraq mate. Good luck with your decision, but you won't be disapointed with a GT.

 

[Scramblin_Jim]

Well while I have both a Jeep and a S197 conv, I'd agree with RPBURNETTE about buying a used Jeep and keeping the Camaro (oh did I just say that, keep a Camaro???). I toyed with just buying a new 4-door Wrangler (selling my CJ-8 and not buying the 07 stang) , expecially a CRD version which is NOT available to us here in the US yet. However with both Jeeps and stangs you can sink lots of money into them with mods as NO ONE is ever happy with a stock vehicle. You can still enjoy both worlds of muscle car and offroading and build both cars up to your liking. I find that after driving the Jeep around with the 5-speed, manual steering, and 258 inline 6 is fun, its definately not fun to drive on paved roads. And while I love to drive in style and go thru the curves fast there is nothing like getting off and into the outback kicking up dust and knowing I've just went someplace with my Jeep few others can say they did. I'm just not satisfied with the one vehicle even if my pocket book would be.
Good luck.

 

[ex-camaroguy]

do a t-56 swap on the camaro and buy the jeep .

 

[CatmanJJ]

I thought the Camaro looked baddass in the new Transformers, so did my wife.

 

[gashog]

It really sounds like you want something new. Id suggest that you either get an older jeep or the mustang, I don't know much jeeps but have friends that do wheeling and it's the most fun you can have at 5 mph.

This is my first mustang and I wasn't really drawn to the newer mustangs until I saw this generation. It has gorgeous lines, plenty of power and potential, 5 speed, hey it's seriously american...

 

[Blu-Steel]

I had a 99 Camaro SS Convertible, 6 speed and loved it. I currently have a 07 GT/CS 5 speed and I love it too. I’ve also had 6 speed Trans AMs and C4 Corvettes and although I really liked them there were some small things that really bugged me, like the bulges on the steering wheel, the seats were not as comfortable, the instrument needles were colored orange (I like red) and I actually bought a couple automatics because of some great deals, but I quickly found I could not live with an automatic so I traded. I am like you in that I really prefer the manual trans and I know that if I were in your situation I would buy the new Mustang for all of the reasons you mention; great performance, looks, transmission, (don’t forget the 5 year warrantee), and the interior is as comfortable as it looks. This Mustang is the first car I think I ever owned that I am completely satisfied with and I can’t imagine trading it for anything. Well… maybe a GT 500 Super Snake if I could afford it, or even find one. You could modify your Camaro and put a T56 in, but that would not be cheap and you would have an older car without a warrantee. Before I bought my 07 GT I found my heard turning every time I saw one on the road and I missed having a fun performance car. I also saw a 1996 6 Speed Corvette Collector’s Edition on the Internet (I used to have one) and decided to drive over 400 miles to check it out. I test drove it and although it was nice, it wasn’t like I remembered. It was a 10 year old car, not the new car that I had. So, I declined the purchase and drove home. Two weeks later I bought my new 07 GT/CS and haven’t regretted it since....I've owned it since Jul 15 2006 (It was an early 07 model).

 

['13_ImpactBlue_GT]

How much is 25000pounds in US money??

 

[anticubicle]

S197 if you want to look good, go fast and have a reliable ride. Terminator if you wan't to go really fast.

 

[SpartaPerformance]

I'ld go with the new Mustang GT...it's as fast if not faster then you stock Z-28, it handles better and is more comfortable and you know what...a manual transmission is not that bad on the fuel economy. The biggest argument in favor of the new Mustang.....? If Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Hammond of Top Gear feel fit to put it on the "Cool Wall" very very close to the super cool section then you know its well worth every penny.

 

[LV51FER]

Hi mate.

As a fellow Brit, I say buy the Mustang. I had a 1998 camaro Z28 LS1 for 4 years with mods to the suspansion and a few bolt-ons and I adored the car but they do get old. When I had it, I loved it and it was a real wrench to get rid of but it had one or two scratches and the interior was not entirely pristine from the previous owner and the power steering rack was starting to leak. I too had the dilemma of keeping it and modifying it or letting it go.

In a way, the decision was made for me because I had imported a 2002 Corvette Z06 and had that as my fix - that cost me £27k in 2004 to get on the road even at an exchange rate of 1.7. The Vette didn't get used much as I have a family and 2 seats aren't very practical but then as it turned out, I only ever use the Mustang with me in it...but I decided to sell the Vette. Like you, I fell in love with the looks of the S197 and I'm afraid GM's new Camaro was too late to come to my party.

So I sold the Vette and bought a Mustang GT. I also sold the Z28 to fund mods to the Stang. I supercharged it and modified the suspension so that now it has the same power to weight as the Z06 and handles just as well. In many ways, it's a better car than the Z06 even and it feels a lot more substantial than the flexible Camaro (even with SFCs). My Z28 was an auto too and the Mustang is a manual. The manual in the Mustang is light years ahead of any GM manual box.

As for performance, I think you'll be surprised. The best I ever got out of the Z28 at the strip was a 13.8 at 105.2mph (albeit rolling it off the line without any abuse). These Mustangs run mid to high 13's stock so the difference is negligible, the handling is far better, the driving position better (though more saloon car-like), the steering lighter and with better feedback, the room in the back is a little more cramped but the seats are more substantial and the interior (with the upgrade package not the horrendously cheap plastic base package) is much better than the Z28. I still have a very soft spot for the Z28 but now look at the interior and think "Hmmmmm...." and that's the full Euro-spec leather too. It now also looks "old" but that's being a victim of fashion for you!

I bought my fully loaded Mustang GT Premium with 2000 miles on the clock in 2005. They were selling for £27k at the time and I paid £19500 which meant I had the £5k to modify it. This is really your best option as most S197's are reasonably mollycoddled in the UK.

As for the Jeep - no. As for the Terminator - nice car but the styling is a little bland and the S197 is a far better handling car being far stiffer than an SN95 but needs a set of Tokico D-Spec dampers and lowering springs to eliminate the soft rocking horse suspension these come with as stock.

I think the Mustang GT is a better and more capable car than the Z28 - quite a lot better actually although maybe not 12 years better (Ford are a little slow in that department) and I have no regrets about changing. I still have twinges about letting the Z06 go based on the looks of the Vette - but no real regrets since modifying the Stang which gets far more attention.

If the Terminators were a bit cheaper, they would be a good option but they tend to be expensive in the UK at least. On the newness point, many of these cars are toys in the UK and are as good as new so a slightly used S197 provides the best of both worlds and I've seen some going for very reasonable prices.

 

[LV51FER]

How much is 25000pounds in US money??

Current exchange rate is over $2 to the £ so over $50000.

 

[300bhp/ton]

How much is 25000pounds in US money??

A lot, in fact waaaay too much

But that's because of the exchange rate, it works good $ to £ but no the other way round.

At present the US$ is very weak against the £ (Sterling) running at about $2 for every £1

So a MSRP of $33,260 is only £16,630

But sadly You then need to add 17.5% VAT (Value Added Tax), import duty, shipping, insurance, SVA (Single Vehicle Approval - so it can be registered) and it'll work out to be the best part of £25,000

Evidently if you paid £25k from the US then it would cost you a whooping $50k

 

[300bhp/ton]

…As for performance, I think you'll be surprised. The best I ever got out of the Z28 at the strip was a 13.8 at 105.2mph (albeit rolling it off the line without any abuse). These Mustangs run mid to high 13's stock so the difference is negligible, the handling is far better, the driving position better (though more saloon car-like), the steering lighter and with better feedback, the room in the back is a little more cramped but the seats are more substantial and the interior (with the upgrade package not the horrendously cheap plastic base package) is much better than the Z28. I still have a very soft spot for the Z28 but now look at the interior and think "Hmmmmm...." and that's the full Euro-spec leather too. It now also looks "old" but that's being a victim of fashion for you!

I bought my fully loaded Mustang GT Premium with 2000 miles on the clock in 2005. They were selling for £27k at the time and I paid £19500 which meant I had the £5k to modify it. This is really your best option as most S197's are reasonably mollycoddled in the UK…

Cheers for the info its much appreciated

So having owned both LS1 and a s197 how do you reckon they compare in terms of on road performance?

Example, when I went down to the Goodwood Revival back in September I got the opportunity to race a new baby Aston Martin V8 Vantage. We went from 90mph to around 150mph and then entered some high speed sweeping curves. I was 2 up and they where on there own.

It was pretty much a dead even race, I pulled about 2’ or so but no more. I admit on the very high speed corners the Aston was more planted than my z/28 but I could still keep with him.

In your opinion would a stock or nearly stock s197 be able to run such at such speeds as well as a LS1 z/28?

BTW – how did you get the s197 for only £19k? Did you import it yourself?

Cheers

 

[LV51FER]

So having owned both LS1 and a s197 how do you reckon they compare in terms of on road performance?

Very similar. The stock GT makes 300bhp. Depending on year, the Chevy makes 305-310. Mustang produces 320lb.ft @4500rpm vs the Chevy's 340@4000 but both rev readily to the red line and the Mustang breathes nicely through the 3v heads. The Mustang has a weight advantage of about 160lbs. The Mustang is shorter then the Z28 and has 6" more in the wheelbase so will be more stable. The big difference is aerodynamics because the top end of the Z28 is higher due to the slippery shape. The GT is a barn door at high speed. It's hard to compare the two as my Z28 was auto and the Mustang is a manual so the thump you get in a 5.7 auto is always going to be the optimum. In a manual, it takes your judgement to pick the right gear. If it helps, my Z28 once crushed a BMW 745i and I sold the Z28 to a friend of mine (albeit a big heavy friend) and on a fast run, the Mustang outran the Z28 (which had Bilstein suspension, SFCs, LCAs) and was demonstrably superior on handling.

Example, when I went down to the Goodwood Revival back in September I got the opportunity to race a new baby Aston Martin V8 Vantage. We went from 90mph to around 150mph and then entered some high speed sweeping curves. I was 2 up and they where on there own. It was pretty much a dead even race, I pulled about 2’ or so but no more. I admit on the very high speed corners the Aston was more planted than my z/28 but I could still keep with him.

The Aston has a 4.3V8 making 380hp at 7300rpm but only 302lb ft of torque at a heady 5000rpm and splits the two on weight so it would seem you'd have to work it hard to get the best from it. I don't particularly subscribe to comparison on public roads as you don't know how good the driver is, how far he's prepared to push his expensive car and so forth although in your case, 150 seems to suggest some commitment!. I regularly used to cruise at a steady 130 in the Z28 but I've not had cause to run the Mustang that fast yet but it does feel planted and confidence inducing although both suffer from brakes that fade rapidly - made worse on the Mustang by a tendency to rise and fall under acceleration and braking. However, I well recall the stock Z28 when i first had it wallowing and wagging it's tail off fast roundabouts which the Bilsteins addressed but it still didn't feel as planted as the Mustang and it took the Bilsteins and SFCs to come close to the stock GT IMHO to the point where I don't think I could go back to one.

In your opinion would a stock or nearly stock s197 be able to run such at such speeds as well as a LS1 z/28?

I haven't wrung out the Mustang. It has nearly as much power as the LS1 and a little less weight but aerodynamics blunt the top end in stock form. I don't know the official top speed but I believe it's 140-145 whereas the Z28 will run to 160. Supercharging takes the Mustang to a whole higher plateau than the Z28 and the crucial difference is the handling allows you to deploy it. Just o the Tokicos and Roush springs I have had similar encounters with a 911 GT2 and a BMW M5 V10.

BTW – how did you get the s197 for only £19k? Did you import it yourself?

No. It came up for sale in 2005. Believe it or not, there were two in Manchester both selling for £20k with 2000 miles on them - both private sales. I drove up there and saw them both on the same day and offered the £19.5k which either one of them would have taken. There was a glut of Mustangs round in 2005 and the prices dropped quite substantially. Ebay saw several going for not much more than £15k on 54 plates. Now, it's harder to find V8s and the prices have firmed up. A 2005 will still set you back around £18k but the current exchange rate means that new imports are getting cheaper. There is a 2006 red 4.6V8 GT Deluxe near me with 5000 on the clock selling for £21k but it has the plastic interior which is a bit of a let-down and a Premium with the interior upgrade is way better.

Check www.mocgb.net as they come up on there occasionally and for S197 advice in the UK, try www.S197.co.uk. There's a guy on there called Twin Turbo who you can look up who has recently bought one to replace his 300ZX. He got his for a good price.

The downside of that one near me is that a guy with a mint 2000 Z28 took an interest but was only offered £5.5k on a part-ex. His Z28 was a cloth seat non T-top although I doubt the dealer cared.

 

[tomustang]

*

 

[300bhp/ton]

Thanks for the info.

I know the s197's can run well I've driven an auto one before, but sales guys don't like you testing the car at 140mph+

I suspect that on a good roll race the z/28 would still have the legs on the Stang, but keeping the speed below 100mph I suspect would play to the Stangs strenghts.

Shame I haven't got the spare cash for a supercharger.

 

[Jenns01TA]

You are basing that on manufacturing claims, the Z28 didn't come with 305 they just 'said' it did, the 5.7L's put down around 300+RWHP stock, as the mustang's 300BHP only pulls around 270~


And there's your proof, low 13's out of the box

I find no bashing going on. He has owned both platforms and is providing an objective analysis based on his real life experiences with both platforms.

I believe I will give this one to LV51FER.

:Zip2:

 

[LV51FER]

You are basing that on manufacturing claims, the Z28 didn't come with 305 they just 'said' it did, the 5.7L's put down around 300+RWHP stock, as the mustang's 300BHP only pulls around 270~


And there's your proof, low 13's out of the box

Actually, you're quite right and ironically it's something I pull out of the argument box when arguing the other way. A dyno test in 1998 between a 305hp Trans Am and a 345hp C5 gave 292 at the rear whels for the TA and 285 at the rear wheels for the Vette which seems to have more power sapped by the rear diff set-up so yes, on that basis, the LS1 was good for something like 325hp I'd guesstimate and the later "325hp" SS was certainly good for around 340 given that MM&FF dynoed one at 317rwhp.

Neverheless, there's still the equivalent weight of an extra person to lug in the Z28 and by my calculation, using 325bhp, the Z28 has to shift 11.12lbs per hp and the Stang 11.5 lbs per hp. However, you also have to take into account that most auto Z28s came with the lazy 2.73 rear end and the Stang came with 3.xx and even the autos and later manuals came with 3.xx gears. You had to buy a manual Z28 to get the 3.xx rear end.

It's also fair to say that the first road test of the Stang gave an out of the box 13.8 and plenty on here have time slips around 13.5 and some down to 13.2 with just an intake. I found the Z28 had a lot of trouble getting the power to the ground (hence the roll off the line so you din't do the 1/4 sideways).

Interestingly, the Euro-spec Z28 only ever claimed 282bhp and the 13.8 I got was after replacing the intake with a K&N FIPK and the single pipe exhaust with a more easier breathing Loudmouth replica. The trap speed of 105 suggests the 282hp was a bit of a stupid claim too.