Confused about Longtubes for 05 GT

I didnt' do a before/after dyno with my car, but there are way too many satisfied N/A S197 Mustang owners with longtubes.

I got dynod with my JLT/SCT/longtubes combo the same day (same hour!) that my best friend did with C&L/Evolution SCT combo. The longtubes showed 8 hp at peak, but 10-12 ALLLLL across the board especially strong around 3-4,000. My torque was 12-15 higher all across the board too.

You will get the most out of longtubes with a power adder like a blower. On a NA engine, the gains will be less, how much less, I'm not sure.

durtyd929 said:

I just got off the phone a with sales rep from Steeda. I told him I was interested in a set of JBA Longtubes along with an H or X pipe. He suggested that I instead go with an X-pipe w/cats. Can anybody offer their experiences and or knowledge? Thank You!

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He's right. Remember, we're talking 281 c.i. here. A tiny engine by musclecar standards. Have you seen the headers that Multimatic uses on the FR500? They are a single tube running from the front exhaust port, w/ tie-ins at each exhaust port! And that's all that's needed. Some back-pressure helps keep from overheating the exhaust valves and aluminum heads.

only 12 hp I have heard people claim like 25hp and 25 torque with longtudes.

JTGrant said:

only 12 hp I have heard people claim like 25hp and 25 torque with longtudes.

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25/25 at the wheels is totally attainable. Most gains are to be had if they are installed on a completely stock car. They would lean the tune out a little bit like the BBK stuff does on stock motors/tunes and gain a little extra power there.
But my car already had a good tune with the SCT & JLT combo and Steeda pulleys, so there was less to be had there.
Don't forget to avoid the ricer math

that guy is a moron. SHORTIES are pretty much worthless, but longtubes provide good gains throughout the powerband.

It makes no sense that LTs would be better with Nitrous. With nitrous you are still flowing the same amount of air so if LTs don't work on a regular NA car they shouldn't make any difference with nitrous.

It also should not matter what the displacement is, LTs will make a big improvement. Back in the day I had a '67 K code fastback. Putting headers on it made a big improvement. So if LTs worked on a 289 CID engine why wouldn't they work on a 281 CID engine?

Pro Mod said:

I didnt' do a before/after dyno with my car, but there are way too many satisfied N/A S197 Mustang owners with longtubes.

I got dynod with my JLT/SCT/longtubes combo the same day (same hour!) that my best friend did with C&L/Evolution SCT combo. The longtubes showed 8 hp at peak, but 10-12 ALLLLL across the board especially strong around 3-4,000. My torque was 12-15 higher all across the board too.

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Why do you lie about this on more than one website? The peak number was 296.07 for yours and 292.59 for mine. Does that equal 8hp anywhere in the free world at the peak? NO! it's a whopping 3.48 hp more and between 3-4k the most the $1100 LT's got you was almost 9hp, but not quite. Tell everyone the truth. You have been sick ever since we got dynoed and went to the track the next day where you got

Remember ProMod two can play at this game.

As for the LT's I can't see spending that much money for minimal gains. maybe with a blower they would help more. As for the 67 K code car, think about the manifolds you took off and compare them to the headers you put on. Major difference in what is put on a car now compared to then. All I'm saying is there is a difference it's just minimal on a near stock car for the money.

bigdaddygt01 said:

As for the 67 K code car, think about the manifolds you took off and compare them to the headers you put on. Major difference in what is put on a car now compared to then. All I'm saying is there is a difference it's just minimal on a near stock car for the money.

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Well, the 05- 06 stock manifolds certainly are a lot sexyer looking than those old stock 289 manifolds - kind of a cast iron tube with 4 little fingers sticking up to each exhuast port. The point I was trying to make is that LTs should offer improvements no matter what the displacement. I've seen 2L 4cyl engines where LT's make nice improvements. The basic principle of LTs are that they give an equal length exhaust path from all exhaust ports to the mid pipe. This improves the exhuast gas flow and can provide a scavaging effect which improves HP & TQ. Digging deeper the HP gains with LTs really come from the engine using less HP to push exhuast gasses out of the cylinders during the exhuast stroke. As nice looking as the stock 05-06 exhuast manifolds are they still suffer from the problem of having unequal length runners.

But I'll throw one more thing at you. Equal length runner LTs may not be the best solution for HP & TQ gains. This is because almost all American V8s do not have an even firing order. Some engines like Ferrari V8s are set up so the next cylinder to fire is aways on the opposite cylinder bank. With American V8s like the Ford 4.6 (& every other Ford V8 ever made) you have cylinders on the same bank firing consecutively. Without wasting the time to look it up, if I remember right the 2 Ford firing orders have been 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (351 CID engines) and 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 pretty much all other Ford V8s.

Using the 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 firing order has 4 & 2 plus 7 & 8 firing consecutively on the same cylinder bank which screws up the exhuast gas flow.

A better header design would take into account these same side vs opposite side cylinder firings and adjust the length of the header tubes to insure that the exhaust gas pulses always reach the junction to the mid pipe in equal time intervals. If I again remember right this is exactly what the famous Bundle of Snakes exhuast headers that Ford used on the Indy engines and GT-40 engines from the 60s. The header pipes from consecutive firing cylinders were routed to the exhuast pipe junction on the other side of the engine to make sure that the tail pipes always had evenly spaced exhuast gas pulses.

Food for thought.

351CJ said:

Well, the 05- 06 stock manifolds certainly are a lot sexyer looking than those old stock 289 manifolds - kind of a cast iron tube with 4 little fingers sticking up to each exhuast port. The point I was trying to make is that LTs should offer improvements no matter what the displacement. I've seen 2L 4cyl engines where LT's make nice improvements. The basic principle of LTs are that they give an equal length exhaust path from all exhaust ports to the mid pipe. This improves the exhuast gas flow and can provide a scavaging effect which improves HP & TQ. Digging deeper the HP gains with LTs really come from the engine using less HP to push exhuast gasses out of the cylinders during the exhuast stroke. As nice looking as the stock 05-06 exhuast manifolds are they still suffer from the problem of having unequal length runners.

But I'll throw one more thing at you. Equal length runner LTs may not be the best solution for HP & TQ gains. This is because almost all American V8s do not have an even firing order. Some engines like Ferrari V8s are set up so the next cylinder to fire is aways on the opposite cylinder bank. With American V8s like the Ford 4.6 (& every other Ford V8 ever made) you have cylinders on the same bank firing consecutively. Without wasting the time to look it up, if I remember right the 2 Ford firing orders have been 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (351 CID engines) and 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 pretty much all other Ford V8s.

Using the 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 firing order has 4 & 2 plus 7 & 8 firing consecutively on the same cylinder bank which screws up the exhuast gas flow.

A better header design would take into account these same side vs opposite side cylinder firings and adjust the length of the header tubes to insure that the exhaust gas pulses always reach the junction to the mid pipe in equal time intervals. If I again remember right this is exactly what the famous Bundle of Snakes exhuast headers that Ford used on the Indy engines and GT-40 engines from the 60s. The header pipes from consecutive firing cylinders were routed to the exhuast pipe junction on the other side of the engine to make sure that the tail pipes always had evenly spaced exhuast gas pulses.

Food for thought.

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All very good points! I just didn't want to go totally off on ProMod and not comment on anything else. He exaggerates the facts a little, and it pissed me off. We are still friends, but he kills me sometimes with his remarks about me and my car. Maybe I should just
IMHO I think the LT's should make more power than what they did in his case. I don't know why they didn't, but they didn't. We both expected his car to belt out about 20 more ponies that mine, but it didn't. So I had been teasing him about the cost after we dynoed and he only made 3.48 more HP than me at the peak. $1100 is alot of dough for just 3.48 hp IMO.

bigdaddygt01 said:

Why do you lie about this on more than one website? The peak number was 296.07 for yours and 292.59 for mine. Does that equal 8hp anywhere in the free world at the peak? NO! it's a whopping 3.48 hp more and between 3-4k the most the $1100 LT's got you was almost 9hp, but not quite. Tell everyone the truth.

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Craig, did the thought cross your mind that I did not intend to misquote the #'s by 4.52 hp? I post from work and I did not have our WinPEP displayed right in front of me. You know I would not lie about you or your car, you've accused me of this on the net before and I've just let it go because you're my best friend dude. There's not one mean bone in my body towards you.

Now that I got the WinPEP in front of me, it was at 4-5k where I had the 10-11 hp (291.10 vs. 280.32 @ 5k), with the 3-4k hovering from 7-8 hp. The torque #'s quoted were accurate. Seriously, I'm sorry I misquoted a couple hp. No need to get defensive, I never said anything bad about your car.

Where else have I "lied" about this? The only other 2 Mustang sites I post on are The Corral & Modular Fords; and I don't recall comparing our cars. Tell me where I did it and I'll fix the 4.52 hp #.

BTW, I paid $910 shipped for my headers.

bigdaddygt01 said:

You have been sick ever since we got dynoed and went to the track the next day where you got

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*I* have not been sick at all. I haven't been sick about the dyno or the track. The dyno just showed us that we should not do ricer math. Before we went to the dyno, I cut off a handful of hp from what the manufacturer's claim when we guesses our hp (to attempt to avoid ricer math). It was still about 9 hp shy of what I/we thought it would put down but it hasn't bothered me in the slightest because the torque #'s were definitely there and the avg. hp #'s were good. For some reason, my tune takes a dump from 5200-5400, but I'm not worried about it. Eventually I'll get it lined out when I have time to worry about it. The car still picked up .5 mph in the 1/8, so it is showing some on the track.

Hey, hp ain't cheap on these cars. This is just part of modifying these cars at this relatively early stage of their existence. We buy parts and find out what works and what don't. I don't want to wait a couple years and let everyone else figure it out.... I had some money to spend, so I spent it on longtubes. I still don't regret them at all. I don't care at all to be the local guinea pig.

The track didn't make me sick either because the trap speed was still there; it was no secret that I didn't drive my car well at all that day. I was unaware that we were in an owning contest. I thought we were best friends having a good time at the track together. You have ran .03 seconds better than me in the 1/8 and I have done nothing but applaud & be happy for you! That's why i don't see where all the aggression is coming from.

When you first got your tuner/cai and we raced, did I ever rub it in to ANYbody.... no. I didn't post up the video, I never mentioned it online. We all figured something was up with your tune, so I considered it a wash. I made a thread on here to see if anybody else had trouble with Evolution tunes. I didn't make that thread to make you look bad, that thread was to find out what was wrong with my best friend's car because I didn't want to see him (my best friend) get ripped off. Turns out your car just didn't take the tune, and now that it has taken the tune I have fluently said how good your tune is.

You seem to be the one that gets sick & obsessive over all this racing stuff. I love you to death man and you're one of the best friends I've ever had. I dunno why you always try to belittle me and obsess with outrunning me. You coulda just called me and told me "hey man, those peak #'s are off by 4.52 hp, I've got the chart here in front of me," but instead there's a couple posts of drama in a thread where it doesn't belong at all.

bigdaddygt01 said:

Remember ProMod two can play at that game.

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Craig I don't WANT to play any game with you. I just wanna be best friends like we have been and have a good time dude.
I'm gonna come over after work cause we seriously need to talk about this.

bigdaddygt01 said:

He exaggerates the facts a little, and it pissed me off. We are still friends, but he kills me sometimes with his remarks about me and my car. Maybe I should just

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I'm sorry the #'s were off by 4.52hp. Not everyone on this planet scrutinizes every tenth of a # quoted. Some people do try to say things from memory, and it isn't always EXACT.
I've never wanted anybody to to me or my car. I do just take up for myself a little when you try to belittle anything I've done to the car.

bigdaddygt01 said:

IMHO I think the LT's should make more power than what they did in his case. I don't know why they didn't, but they didn't. We both expected his car to belt out about 20 more ponies that mine, but it didn't. So I had been teasing him about the cost after we dynoed and he only made 3.48 more HP than me at the peak. $1100 is alot of dough for just 3.48 hp IMO.

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I'm sure down the road with cams etc. the longtubes will show more of their worth. I think they'd show alot of worth right now just in a 1/4 race. It's well known with longtubes that you are paying for power across the band, not just peak power. Your Evolution tune is a very good tune, and I think that's a small thing that is closing the gap between our power #'s as well.

But we don't race dyno's. And you have been .03 better in the 1/8 so far (your 8.44 vs. my 8.47) and I have done nothing but APPLAUD you, your car, and your 60' times (your 1.98 vs. my 2.00).

Are you kidding me? You took me to the dyno to make me look bad, and you thought yours would make way more than mine and it didn't. I didn't say a word to you about it, you just didn't hardly speak to me or Billy after it. You were pissed, or upset one of the two. I don't care because I've always said that the dyno is mainly for arguing, it's just numbers, who cares.

Yes you did pay over $1000 for the headers because you were informed you had to get the motor mounts at the same time. Is that not true? I just think that's a whole lota money for what you gained. I know parts for these are expensive. That's why I don't have as many as you do. You don't have to tell me how much any car parts are I believe I know.

You have changed dude. Ever since you put the heads on your old 5.0 (Chachi) you have stuck your chest out and bragged anytime you edged me out anywhere. Just not to me. It's always when I'm not around. Do you remember when I had the Lightning? Do you remember bragging to several when you won? I sure do! I just got sick of you putting me down and speaking down to me whenever I know about as much as you know about any of these cars. You are no better or worse fo rthat matter than I. You just talk behind my back, and I for one don't appreciate it.

BTW my best 60ft was a 1.97 with all the loud cars.

Sorry everyone for the rant that was totally off topic! I just know ProMod lives on these websites during the day and he will see this.

I will not reply back in this forum.

How old are you guys??? sixteen??
Isn't there a minimum age to join these forums? Mybe there should be.....
You sound like a couple of really mature dudes!

heheh.. man.. Theres a story waiting to be told =-).. But it comes back to the simple question about how important it is to have Lt's. For the price I dont think its worth it.. maybe later when priced go down a litte.

383ss said:

that guy is a moron. SHORTIES are pretty much worthless, but longtubes provide good gains throughout the powerband.

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As for regular, un-equal length shorties, I agree.. there worthless, However according to JBA.. their new cat4ward, equal length shorty headers, can produce up to 21.3 HP on the S-197 Stang..At least check out their website, before making a judgement..

red05bullitgt said:

As for regular, un-equal length shorties, I agree.. there worthless, However according to JBA.. their new cat4ward, equal length shorty headers, can produce up to 21.3 HP on the S-197 Stang..At least check out their website, before making a judgement..

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Read the fine print in the ad. That includes cat back and I think high flow cats.. But the differents between the shorties and LT's are not much.. so that sounds like the best option for the price.. now we need to find the place that has the best prices for it.. anyone know?

lostsoul said:

Read the fine print in the ad. That includes cat back and I think high flow cats.. But the differents between the shorties and LT's are not much.. so that sounds like the best option for the price.. now we need to find the place that has the best prices for it.. anyone know?

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You're right, I did miss the fine print..but if I'm not mistaken, aren't the stock cats on our 05-06 Stangs, considered as being factory high flow cats, anyway ?? being as how Ford, did such a dramatic improvement, on the entire exhaust as far as restrictions are concerned, you would think that would also apply to the cats, as well..

you got me.. haha.. I just found out that "some LT's" can work with cats.. so much to learn and I'm so far behind =-/ .. BBK has equal length hearder.. but not as big as mac shorties.. which one do I get for my SC with 12psi