Converting my '88 to 100% electric

enganear · Oct 4, 2008

As the subject says, I am installing a GE 11.5" series wound DC motor from a Hyster forklift in place of the 5.0 V8 in my '88 hatch. I have searched the archives here and other places online for the mounting dimensions for the Ford 5.0 engine. I need a drawing showing the bellhousing interface dimensions including the location of the bolt holes and dowels relative to the crankshaft. If someone could help me I would appreciate it very much.

I am not a tree hugger and I do not anticipate actually making back my conversion costs. I am doing this because its cool and I do not like giving money to countries that hate the USA.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.
-enganear

jrichker · Oct 5, 2008

Have you considered where you will put the battery and how much it will weight? A battery of sufficient size to power a car at freeway speeds for several hours will be quite large and heavy.

Mustang5L5 · Oct 5, 2008

What's the RPM range of the motor? What does it max out at? Any torque ratings?

I'm not quite sure it would be best to incorporate the motor ahead of the transmission. Some electric motors would be best used as direct drive since they have both the torque and RPM range to do so while a gasoline engine does not.

WHat batteries are you going to use? Forklift batteries are pretty heavy

JDelaney · Oct 5, 2008

Sounds like a fun project.

enganear · Oct 5, 2008

jrichker said:
Have you considered where you will put the battery and how much it will weight? A battery of sufficient size to power a car at freeway speeds for several hours will be quite large and heavy.

Yes, I am a mechanical engineer in the automotive industry and I have been planning this for ~ 6months. The flooded lead-acid battery pack (24 6V golf cart batteries) will weigh around 1500 pounds. I will pull abut 800 pounds of ICE related stuff out of the car and the GVW is ~4200 pounds. I will be under the GVW limit when complete.

Range will be 40-50 miles, top speed around 55. The only 100% electric car capable of freeway speeds for hours as you suggest is the Tesla, well out of my price range.

Finding the dimensions to design the adapter has proven more difficult than I imagined. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
-enganear

Mustang5L5 · Oct 5, 2008

Why not just purchase a bellhousing off ebay or somewhere else and use it to reference your needed dimensions?

I don't particular know of any engineering drawings available to the public showing the relation of the various mounting holes to the crank position myself. It's not exactly a common request since most people don't really need to know that particular peice of information.

Curious to see how an electric motor coupled to a manual transmission would behave.

enganear · Oct 5, 2008

Mustang5L5 said:
Why not just purchase a bellhousing off ebay or somewhere else and use it to reference your needed dimensions?

I don't particular know of any engineering drawings available to the public showing the relation of the various mounting holes to the crank position myself. It's not exactly a common request since most people don't really need to know that particular peice of information.

Curious to see how an electric motor coupled to a manual transmission would behave.

I have an extra bellhousing. It is not possible to measure the bellhousing and locate the crankshaft centerline within .001". The mounting holes and motor pilot must be located on a CNC mill or a manual mill with a DRO ( or fully manual with a REALLY good machinist). The dimensions have to be known.

Somewhere, someone HAS to have access to these dimensions.

I have ridden in 2 conversions, an S10 pickup and a TR7. There are lots of them around, see EV Photo Album: Our Electric Cars on the Web. Most are clutchless. The motor has so little rotational inertia that the synchros are enough to match the input/output speeds. If you are interested in how they drive, see the video "Shifting gears in a clutchless electric Delorean" at YouTube - Shifting gears in a clutchless Electric DeLorean..

Driving an EV produces what is referred to in the community as the "EV grin".
-enganear

enganear · Oct 5, 2008

Still looking for a drawing...

Mustang5L5 said:
What's the RPM range of the motor? What does it max out at? Any torque ratings?

I'm not quite sure it would be best to incorporate the motor ahead of the transmission. Some electric motors would be best used as direct drive since they have both the torque and RPM range to do so while a gasoline engine does not.

WHat batteries are you going to use? Forklift batteries are pretty heavy

Motor range is 0-5000 rpm. Best efficiency will be 3,000-4,000 rpm. Most driving will be in 2nd gear with my 2.95 World Class T5 and 3.27 rear gear.

Torque at zero rpm is around 300 ft-lbs.

Direct drive limits performance and sucks amps. It is not a popular option in the EV community. AC systems are better suited for direct drive. AC motors are cheap, but the controllers are VERY expensive. Most conversions are DC using series wound motors, most OEM EVs are AC.

The batteries are most commonly used in golf carts. Where they use 36V, I will be using 144V.

I'm not really breaking any new ground here except for using an 88 5.0 Mustang as the donor.
-enganear

NIKwoaC · Oct 5, 2008

Could you use some sort of a flex coupling between the motor output and the transmission input? I'm thinking something along the lines of a rag joint. I've seen flexible drivetrain couplings on smaller stuff like go-karts and PWCs (Waverunners), so maybe larger stuff is available. This would eliminate the need to be so accurate in locating the center axis of the input/output shafts. It just seems to me that holding it within 0.001" on a fabricated setup is extremely unrealistic, and the extra flex in the drivetrain would be more forgiving on the trans.

Blandnuts · Oct 5, 2008

Can't help you, but I hope you show your progress in this thread.

Fred

enganear · Oct 5, 2008

NikwoaC said:
Could you use some sort of a flex coupling between the motor output and the transmission input? I'm thinking something along the lines of a rag joint. I've seen flexible drivetrain couplings on smaller stuff like go-karts and PWCs (Waverunners), so maybe larger stuff is available. This would eliminate the need to be so accurate in locating the center axis of the input/output shafts. It just seems to me that holding it within 0.001" on a fabricated setup is extremely unrealistic, and the extra flex in the drivetrain would be more forgiving on the trans.

People have used Lovejoy style couplings with limited success, the insert becomes a wear item that requires pulling the motor to change and I am trying to avoid that. I may have to compromise, but if I can get a drawing, I work with shops that can hold the tolerances, no problem.

The motor has a 1.75" 27T SAE splined shaft and I will use the hub from a clutch disk for the transmission side.
-enganear

85_SS_302_Coupe · Oct 5, 2008

As cool as this sounds (i'm all about a progress thread if you actually do it), i've spent many hours atop a Hyster fork lift and can tell you that battery life is going to be the killer here.

So...while i won't say it can't be done, i will say you have your work cut out for ya and i'd love to see it actually happen.

enganear · Oct 5, 2008

85_SS_302_Coupe said:
As cool as this sounds (i'm all about a progress thread if you actually do it), i've spent many hours atop a Hyster fork lift and can tell you that battery life is going to be the killer here.

So...while i won't say it can't be done, i will say you have your work cut out for ya and i'd love to see it actually happen.

Check out the Electric Vehicle photo album at EV Photo Album: Our Electric Cars on the Web. The list there currently stands at 1882 entries.

It can be done and it will be a lot of work. My hobby is building and fighting robots, this is the same technology scaled up and without the weapons and R/C. I guess a FEW weapons might be fun.....
-enganear

HISSIN50 · Oct 5, 2008

Over 30 years ago, my EE neighbor made an electric car from a Colt. It was a great little commuter for him, even though gas was under a buck/gallon (he did it just because he could).

He had to use conventional lead-cell batts (the whole rear seat area was packed with them). One of his biggest issues was just getting the car signed-off upon by the regulatory folks. I've long since lost touch with him - if I hadn't, I'd forward you his contact info. Chatting about the contents of his 20 car garage was enough fun!

Oh yeah, IIRC Don Walsh Sr was a driveline engineering for Ford. Maybe a call to D&D/Walsh Racing would be fruitful.

I admire people who can engineer stuff like that - best of luck to you!

NIKwoaC · Oct 5, 2008

Considering you won't have a clutch or an exhaust system, if you could replace the insert for the coupling by pulling the T-5, it really wouldn't be too labor intensive. Most guys I know (myself included) can pull a T-5 in about 30 minutes, and that includes removing the exhaust midpipe. The way I see it, if you can get a coupling to last 5000 miles or better, and insert replacement isn't to costly, I'd seriously consider it.

Have you tried directly contacting Ford or Tremec for the dimensions? I imagine the original drawings are probably somewhat confidential or require some sort of contract to get a hold of. There are also some aftermarket transmission companies you could try calling.

However this all works out, you definitely need to have a progress thread made once you start this project!

jrichker · Oct 5, 2008

Please post a drawing or picture of the drive end of the electric motor. Is there a flange mounting pad on the drive end of the electric motor? I may have some helpful ideas for you.

enganear · Oct 5, 2008

NikwoaC said:
Considering you won't have a clutch or an exhaust system, if you could replace the insert for the coupling by pulling the T-5, it really wouldn't be too labor intensive. Most guys I know (myself included) can pull a T-5 in about 30 minutes, and that includes removing the exhaust midpipe. The way I see it, if you can get a coupling to last 5000 miles or better, and insert replacement isn't to costly, I'd seriously consider it.

Have you tried directly contacting Ford or Tremec for the dimensions? I imagine the original drawings are probably somewhat confidential or require some sort of contract to get a hold of. There are also some aftermarket transmission companies you could try calling.

However this all works out, you definitely need to have a progress thread made once you start this project!

As far as reaching a Lovejoy insert, it is probably easier to pull the motor. It is only 11.5" in diameter and there is no radiator, headers, or other such complications in the way.

Tremec has the dimensions for the T-5 on their website, but the bellhousing is unique to the 5.0 and is apparently not a Tremec supplied part. I thought about eliminating the bellhousing and making an adapter to fit directly to the T-5. It would cost a more and would probably be heavier. I still may go that direction because documentation is available.

My company is a tier 1 supplier to Ford and I have not been able to get to the right person. I am still trying. This forum is the last place I have investigated.

I have also requested a custom quotation from Kennedy Engineered Products. They make adapters for just about everything to anything.

I am developing a progress thread on a couple of EV forums, I figured it would be too far off topic for this forum. Is this interesting to this group?
-enganear

enganear · Oct 5, 2008

jrichker said:
Please post a drawing or picture of the drive end of the electric motor. Is there a flange mounting pad on the drive end of the electric motor? I may have some helpful ideas for you.

I pick up the motor from the rebuild shop tomorrow. I will try to get some pictures then. In the meantime here are some pics from another person's project. He had someone else make the adapter with no documentation generated. You can get the idea regarding what is required. My motor will not have a straight keyed shaft as this WarP9 motor does. My motor has a SAE splined shaft. This motor is 9" diameter, mine is 11.5".
-enganear

Mustang5L5 · Oct 5, 2008

enganear said:
I am developing a progress thread on a couple of EV forums, I figured it would be too far off topic for this forum. Is this interesting to this group?
-enganear

I would definitely like to see this project being a mech. engineer myself. (in semiconductor industry)

You can make a progress thread and I will gladly add it to the progress thread list as I'm sure others would love to see this project as well

tmoss · Oct 5, 2008

I assume this is a compound wound motor - what is it's rating in HP and what is it's peak TQ?

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