Dino vs Synthetic Oil

ddasilva99 said:

For the 5.0L V8 What do you recommend Dino Oil or Sythentic Oil and which brand?

Is it true that if you switch from Dino oil to Synthetic oil it eats away at your seals?

Thanks,
Derek

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Synthetic oil tends to be thinner than a same weight dino counterpart. synthetics, due to being designed to operate for more miles/longer OCI's/more extreme conditions, have more detergents in them. so combine the cleaning ability of synthetics with its thinner nature, and some folks have leaks. (the detergents clean the gunk out of seals and the thinner oil can seep past).

it is a personal choice. if one runs a longer OCI, the cost can be offset. do you live in an extreme climate? have an oil cooler already (i dont know if SN's come with them or not)? etc.

i could go on but no one wants to hear my ramblings. good luck in your decision.

This thread, has had many threads started like it in the past and the previous threads concluded in a bunch of uneducated opinions and wrong answers. HISSIN pointed you in the right direction with factual information. I will admit I don't know enough about the subject to be breaking things down, but I do know enough to know that I don't know enough.

I keep my opinions about synthetics reserved. The fact of the matter is that if you change your oil every 3000 miles and the primary use of your car is a daily driver, using a synthetic oil on an older motor would do no good.

Joe

Joes95GT said:

This thread, has had many threads started like it in the past and the previous threads concluded in a bunch of uneducated opinions and wrong answers. HISSIN pointed you in the right direction with factual information. I will admit I don't know enough about the subject to be breaking things down, but I do know enough to know that I don't know enough.

I keep my opinions about synthetics reserved. The fact of the matter is that if you change your oil every 3000 miles and the primary use of your car is a daily driver, using a synthetic oil on an older motor would do no good.

Joe

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Joe, thanks for the props.
I try to post stuff i know (or think i do. LOL) - and you guys know that if im not sure about something (esp issues concerning possible differences in your SN's vs my fox), i make a point to say that i'm not sure - my thoughts are just that (for people to kick around). as long as it is done tastefully, i dont mind having my lunch handed to me.

EFI 5.0's can really heat the oil up (sustained oil temps over 250*F are generally not too great for dino oil). not sure about you guys, but foxes can run at 250 w/o too much trouble.

i run synthetic for the extra temp protection (i see ambient temps of over 110* during summer). i will also note that not all synthetics are the same in terms of basestocks used. i would further research the particular oil one contemplates to ensure the basestock properties are congruitious with what someone desires from their oil.

good luck.

HISSIN50 said:

EFI 5.0's can really heat the oil up (sustained oil temps over 250*F are generally not too great for dino oil). not sure about you guys, but foxes can run at 250 w/o too much trouble.

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We can't go that high. Our cars have BIG TIME problems once any substantial temperature is reached (210*+).

Another reason I run dino oil is because my car has been driven ZERO miles since August, and about 1000 since May 2003. I change it twice a year, so it really wouldn't be cost effective for me.

Joe

Joes95GT said:

We can't go that high. Our cars have BIG TIME problems once any substantial temperature is reached (210*+).
Joe

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Joe, I was talking about oil temps there - not coolant. oil temps is 5.0's can be 50* hotter than coolant without too much effort.

I switched to mobil 1 synthetic about three months ago. My car seems to run a lot better with it before I ran castrol. But I will tell you this synthetic oil will find any leaks in any seals you may have. I had to change my valve cover gaskets almost immediately because they began to leak. Its not that it ate away anything its just that because of the thinness off the oil it just found the weakness in the gasket. Afterwards I've had to further problems.

Joes95GT, I thought if conventional oil sat, it would break down back to crude? I could be wrong, but just lookin' out for ya, my 'Stang brother! I personally ran synthetic when I got my 95, and when I switched back to conventional oil, saw zero difference. I don't think it eats away at seals, but that HISSIN50 hit the nail on the head about the detergents. The viscosity should be the same (10w30, etc...), but if there was a leak that's being plugged by any kind of sediment from the oil, synthetic will probably clean it out, and the leak will resurface. I'd stick with the conventional oil, but use a quality brand like Castrol or something. Store brand is often recycled, and although it meets all the SAE requirements, probably isn't meant for high performance duty.

-Matt

Joes95GT said:

The fact of the matter is that if you change your oil every 3000 miles and the primary use of your car is a daily driver, using a synthetic oil on an older motor would do no good.

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Interesting to talk about people pointing others in the wrong direction by not speaking factually and then throw that in there.

Whether the engine is new or old, high mileage or low -- synthetic oils perform better in every category. That is fact. Whether to run better oil in an older engine or not is purely opinion.

Personally, I run synthetics in everything I own (and not just in the engine).

OK, I have always kept my mouth shut in these debates but I am going to throw in my .02. I have taken quite a few lubrication classes and have formed my opinion from these. I run nothing but syn from front to back in my Stang. To simplify the difference between the two think of this: take a hand full of different sized marbles and put them on a flat surface, then take a board and put on top of them and roll the board back and forth. It does not touch all the marbles and does not roll AS smoothly. NOW take a handful of like size marbles and do the same, all the marbles will touch and the board will roll with less resistance and effort. The molecule size(marbles) in syn oil is more tightly controlled because it is manmade, the dino oil is refined , therefore the molecule size cannot be controled nearly as well. Does that make sense?
Dino oil will not turn back to crude after sitting, it cannot turn back to crude because it has been refined and has been seperated. Through the process of combustion, hydrocarbons are produced. These bond with the detergents in the oil( which is what is supposed to happen) and make the oil turn color, it IS NOT BURNED like alot of people say. If you drop your oil after 3K miles and it is still clear, changr oils, yous is not doing its job. ANYWAY, if you let the oil sit for an extender period , the hydrocarbons will turn the oil acidic and will attack the bearing in your engine, which is a bad thing.

Bottom line, syn oil is better than dino , changing oil at 3K miles is a waste unless it is a time issue. Look at your owners manual, most suggest oil changes ranging from 5 to 7.5 K intervals. The oil companies want you to change at 3K for their benifit. Don't get me wrong, it is always good to err to the conservative.

So..... flame away!!!!!!!!

I agree good post.

My Vote here for Mobil 1 Synthetic. Good stuff, although I never used amsoil...

to toss more confusion into it:

remember too that synthetics (brand to brand) use different basestocks. some (group III's) are very very refined hydrocracked DINO stock. others use PAO and PAE basestocks (another topic altogether, as each has its advantages).

the only way to know how long one can get away with a given oil (change) is to do a UOA.

for me personally, i oscillate. each vehicle is specific. the DD's get synthetics with slightly extended OCI's. stang has syn - but in winter (my mild season), i run dino oil for shorter periods.

oils these days (of any sort, unless you find some group I stuff somewhere) is so good, i think the argument is not all that interesting. an Extended OCI or severe usage is the only reason to justify a synthetic, IMHO. if someone does not drive in severe conditions (i see in-town driving in 110*F temps, which i consider severe - see my first and second posts on oil temps for more), a dino oil changed at 3-5K (on a healthy motor) should[/] be alright (again, the ONLY way to know is to do a UOA).
this is just my opinion.

BTW, Cmozez, that was a nice post. good analogy. i would add that if one had a heavy load on the marbles, the uneven ones would wear down and get funkier, where the second scenario with all the same size marbles would hold up better (less force delta PSI).

89MustangGX said:

Interesting to talk about people pointing others in the wrong direction by not speaking factually and then throw that in there.

Whether the engine is new or old, high mileage or low -- synthetic oils perform better in every category. That is fact.

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Let's reread the original post...

ddasilva99 said:

For the 5.0L V8 What do you recommend Dino Oil or Sythentic Oil and which brand?

Is it true that if you switch from Dino oil to Synthetic oil it eats away at your seals?

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I responded with...

Joes95GT said:

This thread, has had many threads started like it in the past and the previous threads concluded in a bunch of uneducated opinions and wrong answers. HISSIN pointed you in the right direction with factual information. I will admit I don't know enough about the subject to be breaking things down, but I do know enough to know that I don't know enough.

I keep my opinions about synthetics reserved. The fact of the matter is that if you change your oil every 3000 miles and the primary use of your car is a daily driver, using a synthetic oil on an older motor would do no good.

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Lets cross reference the original post with the second post in this thread made by HISSIN50...

HISSIN50 said:

Synthetic oil tends to be thinner than a same weight dino counterpart. synthetics, due to being designed to operate for more miles/longer OCI's/more extreme conditions, have more detergents in them. so combine the cleaning ability of synthetics with its thinner nature, and some folks have leaks. (the detergents clean the gunk out of seals and the thinner oil can seep past).

it is a personal choice. if one runs a longer OCI, the cost can be offset. do you live in an extreme climate? have an oil cooler already (i dont know if SN's come with them or not)? etc.

i could go on but no one wants to hear my ramblings. good luck in your decision.

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Read the part of my post that I bolded. The original poster asked about engine SEALS. HISSIN made a factual statement about how synthetics have a tendency to leak past worn seals because of their thinner composition. I agreed with him in my post. And, since it is a FACT that the same weight synthetic is thinner than the same weight dino oil, the FACT of the matter is that running a synthetic would be taking a risk as far as sealing is concerned.

Accuse me of wording something wrong. Fine by me. Your accusations of me being wrong are incorrect, however.

Now, it's time for me to jump on your case...

89MustangGX said:

synthetic oils perform better in every category. That is fact. Whether to run better oil in an older engine or not is purely opinion.

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Where did performance ever come up? Just to let you know, "performance" is very subjective.

You didn't come with enough artillery this time.

Joe

Joes95GT said:

You didn't come with enough artillery this time.

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Well, you missed my 'artillery' completely.

This is what I was referring to in my post (notice that's what I quoted):

Joes95GT said:

The fact of the matter is that if you change your oil every 3000 miles and the primary use of your car is a daily driver, using a synthetic oil on an older motor would do no good.

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If you can prove that as a fact, I'll eat my words. Unless you do, it's just part of the same uneducated opinions and wrong answers you were talking about earlier.

As for performance, I mention that part due to HISSIN50 mentioning synthetics being designed to operate for more miles/longer OCI's/more extreme conditions, having more detergents in them, and having extra temperature protection. That's where that came from.

-----

BTW, I was really just trying to point out a little irony while voicing my opinion about part of the original question. No personal attack or anything intended.

I use mobile 1,,,but regular dino oil is just fine,,as long as you change it every 3000 miles.

89MustangGX said:

If you can prove that as a fact, I'll eat my words. Unless you do, it's just part of the same uneducated opinions and wrong answers you were talking about earlier.

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To be honest with you, I've read or seen the stuff somewhere, I just don't know where. Instead of proving myself, how about you disprove me since I made the contentions first.

89MustangGX said:

BTW, I was really just trying to point out a little irony while voicing my opinion about part of the original question. No personal attack or anything intended.

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Same here. Just trying to pass a little bit of time inbetween classes, and have a little bit of fun while doing so. You're perfectly entitled to call me wrong, an idiot, ass, or whatever else you'd like. I've been called much worse . However, now it's time to party...



Joe

Joes95GT said:

Instead of proving myself, how about you disprove me since I made the contentions first.

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That was all kind of what I was getting at -- I don't see how anyone could prove that using synthetics in older engines [in general] does no good, or that it does do some good. It's all opinion.

I'm just out for a little fun -- that's all.

I'm going to repeat a few things that others have said earlier and throw my $.02 in here.
Synthetics have 2 main advantages over regular dino oil;

1) Temperature protection.....both hot and cold. On cold starts, its been laboratory proven that synthetics flow MUCH quicker than regular oil. This is important because the majority of engine wear takes place on cold startup. (90% of engine wear is the number that commonly comes up in articles on this topic). This is very significant for those living in the cold climates of the northern states and Canada.

2) At the other end of the scale, synthetic oils also do not break down as easily at high operating temps. Because it does not break down as easily, the lubricating qualities last much longer than regular dino oil. Another bonus for those of you in hot climates who run your cars hard and doubly so for those of you who are turbocharged. This is due to a few factors......better resistance to temperature extremes.....see 1......they are man-made with more uniform molecules as someone else posted earlier.

The only disadvanges to synthetic oils are;
1) Cost.......they're quite a bit more expensive then regular oil.
2) Leaks on higher mileage vehicles.....this is due to the fact that synthetic oil WILL clean on out any crud build up around seals/gaskets etc. This crud does act as a type of sealant on higher mileage engines. If a gasket is drying out and isn't sealing quite as well as it did when new, the combination of cleaning the crud and the improved flow properties of the synthetic oil WILL create a leak where there was none before. Calling synthetic oil "thinner" is a misnomer. Synthetic oil does flow better, but its "weight" is the same as an equivilant dino oil. 10-30 oil is 10-30 oil, regardless if its dino or synthetic.

I run synthetic oil on all of my vehicles. The improved lubricating qualites at temperature extremes is worth the extra cost to me. I did have a couple of minor leaks develop on both my cars after I switched to synthetic. (one oil pan and one rear main seal) It just forced me to get off my a$$ and change the problem seals.

Have a look at the following link for a nice writeup;

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/15378/

Also do a search on the www for "synthetic oil tests"........you'll come up with one or two hits!

Silver85TC said:

If a gasket is drying out and isn't sealing quite as well as it did when new, the combination of cleaning the crud and the improved flow properties of the synthetic oil WILL create a leak where there was none before. Calling synthetic oil "thinner" is a misnomer. Synthetic oil does flow better, but its "weight" is the same as an equivilant dino oil. 10-30 oil is 10-30 oil, regardless if its dino or synthetic.

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i respectfully have disagree with a point or two.

ya might want to double check on the 'thinness' part. it is referred to as being a 'thin XXX weight' and synthetics can do it because of their normally (AND people not all synthetics are) man-made nature. one popular oil comes to mind - their cold 15 weight is more congruitious to a 10 weight.

viscosity is based on how an oil performs at 0/100*C, pour points, etc - it has nothing to do with the physical thickness (though it generally is close for a given weight of oil). weights of oils are based on characteristics and requirements, not physical viscosity.

synthetics can be made thinner to flow better cold, while still being able to withstand higher stresses when hot (due to the synthetic properties, be it a GIII, IV, or V). some brands of synthetics or even different applications see oils which are on different sides of the spectrum (i.e. the heavier racing oils [road racing, etc] tend to be a heavy oil because it is assumed the car will see the most extreme of extreme). a DD in Michigan winter does not need the high temp stability but does need good flow at lower temps (shift in the operating conditions and thus different proportions/properties in the blend).

also, i know what you meant above, but i think it was phrased ambiguously. synthetic oil seldom "creates" leaks, as was posted. it does 'enlighten' you to their whereabouts. i think choosing the use of the word "create" was poor. if i go hiking and fall and my wounds are covered in dirt, then i go home and take a shower, the water that reveals my cuts did not create them. it only showed me them.
i would have said 'unmask' or something along that line - i know i'm nitpicking semantics but syn oil creating leaks is a huge misnomer and i hate for someone to get the wrong impression if not reading carefully (like me. ).

with much of the synthetic stuff, there is no one answer; it is application specific. to that end, i say run whatever floats your boat.